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Conditions for the Four Stages of Nibbāna
Can we add tanha as another way to characterize the stages of nibbana: kāma tanhā, bhava hanhā, vibhava tanhā.
vibhava tanhā is removed at the sōtapanna stage.
kāma tanhā is weakened at the sakadāgāmi stage and removed at the anāgāmi stage.
bhava tanhā is removed at the arahant stage.
“Since then, I’ve been feeling much more disenchanted about worldly things”.
However much longer you have to go, you are definitely going in the right direction. I’d venture to speculate that you are going through nibbidā, which leads to virāgā, and then to nirodhā.
Best!
1 user thanked author for this post.
Thank you, Lal.
About formatting, the only formatting I’ve done so far is to italicize Pali words, which works fine per the instruction.
I posted last night, after a long absence, and wonder if the following is happening with anybody:
I wrote my post in Notepad and pasted it to the forum, italicizing here and there.
Everything looked good before I submitted.
Once I submitted, I saw line break formatting tags: “<br />” or something like it.
I edited the post and removed them manually, but that did not work.Let’s see if that is happening with this post.
Looks like it does, and there is no formatting of any words here, so it looks like the copying and pasting caused this.
I practiced the Goenka’s technique a number of years, and found it to be quite an oversimplification (and at times misrepresentation) of Buddha Dhamma. The benefits, as you pointed out, are the temporary relief one gets after attending a retreat.
First, the verse you quoted:
All saṅkhāras are impermanent.
When you perceive this with true insight
then you become detached from suffering;
this is the path of purification.… is the translation of the Pali verse:
“Sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā” ti,
yadā paññāya passati;
Atha nibbindati dukkhe,
esa maggo visuddhiyā.”…which is Dhammapada 277 and is explained in:
Anuloma Khanti and Sammattaniyāma – Pre-requisites for a Sotapanna
(See #7)
This post is about Anuloma Khanti and Sammattaniyāma.
At the start of the thread, you wrote:
“…Another thought strongly came to mind, “Nibbana is the only way out.””
It sounds like you may have realized Sammattaniyāma, and if that is the case then it is great!
The oversimplification is that the method focuses on just bodily sensations: dukha vedana, sukha vedana, adukhamasukha vedana. It is explained that these sensations are manifestations of all mental phenomena, especially sankharā.
Very briefly, the “vipassana” part of this technique involves moving attention from head to toes, noticing the sensation in each part of the body, and observing that sensation with a mindset of equanimity. (The “anapana” part of the technique is taken to be breath meditation).
For those who are following this method, and this is all you do, then do not be surprised that after years and years of practice your gati seems to stay the same.
Best,
Lang“The message here is that our bodies are a collection of parts. Furthermore, such a body is subject to many ailments.
– It is of no benefit to making such bodies in future lives.”The body is, among other things, a means through which nature imparts kamma vipaka, some of which can be severe ailments as Lal pointed out.
See #17 in:
Body Types in 31 Realms – Importance of Manomaya Kaya
Lang
Hi. A follow-up question on “Prerequisites for the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhāvanā” mentioned above (#40216)
We have the verse: “Idha, bhikkhavē, bhikkhu aranna gatō vā rukkhamūla gatō vā sunnāgāra gatō vā nisidati pallankaṃ ābhujitvā, ujuṃ kāyaṃ paṇidhāya, parimukhaṃ satiṃ upaṭṭhapetvā“.
… which in the deeper meaning is about getting to certain mindsets, not merely “going to the forest, to the foot of a tree …”
Regarding the words “gatō vā“, is gatō related to gati?
For us, the deeper meaning here makes total sense. I was having a discussion about this sutta with someone who took only the mundane, conventional meaning. To this person, this deeper interpretation was a “stretch”.
Thank you,
LangThank you for your inputs.
First, a word about mundane dark things that may be happening in the world of the elite, those with ultra wealth and power. If that is the case then it shows the danger of ignorance of Buddha Dhamma on the mundane level, not knowing the consequences of actions, which may happen future lives.
Also, about guiding others (and in my case just one person), I notice something: this person appreciates the Pali words after understanding their meanings.
After establishing concepts of the big picture (the complex world of 31 realms with a rebirth process) and the mundane path (moral living, avoiding the 10 types of miccha ditthi), a person does appreciate learning Buddha Dhamma with Pali words after they grasp the meanings behind them. They may also come up with analogies of their own when learning key concepts.
Just a thought for someone who may be guiding others using the PD site.
Hi,
I was re-reading the below post, with the new chart which is tremendously helpful! I am delighted and would like to share a few thoughts which are most closely related to something in a sotapanna forum, so I post them here.
“What is Unique in Buddha Dhamma?”
In another thread, I recently mentioned that I am using PD to guide someone in learning Buddha Dhamma, and with a chart like this one can have an idea where one is on the path.
With this chart, we can also easily explain various stages of liberation or enlightenment; they are no longer too abstract.
In my native language, there is a generic word for “enlightenment” which literally means “awakening”. Actually, in English as well, most people take this meaning; they say that “The Buddha” means “The Awakened One” because the word “Buddha” has a root that means to “wake up”. Thinking of “Buddha” as “bhava + uddha” makes much more sense to me.
Regardless of the breaking down of “Buddha“, the explanation of “awakening” that follows tends to be vague, and gives the impression of an all-or-nothing event, not a gradual, step-by-step process.
However, if we can apply this chart to what “awakening” is, I’d propose that it is the sotapanna anugāmi stage, and it is the stage where most of the work of the Noble Path takes place.
At this stage, although sotapanna magga phala has not occurred, one has seen anicca, dukkha, anatta to a strong enough degree to never go back to the mundane path, i.e. one has “awakened” to the Noble Path.
We have learned that a sotapanna sees the path to arahanthood, and that it takes at most 7 bhavas to get there, and that’s why we have some radical similes as to how much defilement a sotapanna has left to remove compared to that of a normal being, such as the amount of dirt stuck to one’s fingertips compared to the amount of dirt of the earth. This is also why Lal had a post about how a sotapanna is better off than a king or a billionaire.
Just like a sotapanna sees the path to arahanthood, a sotapanna anugāmi sees the path to a sotapanna, except there is no guarantee of how much time to get there. Hence this is where most effort takes place.
Thank you for the post and the chart, and curious to see everyone’s inputs.
Best,
LangI took a quick peek, and my guess is that these videos may be “too much reality” for most of us. They may indeed bring out patigha, like you warned us, which could be why you couldn’t sleep for a day or two.
Another point, although you probably did not mean it, is that I know of people who practice “asubha bhavana” in a way similar to this. They took some passages, perhaps from the Tipitaka, that describe the different decaying stages of a corpse and imagine them in their mind as a way of contemplating the ugliness/foulness of the body. With videos like these, nowadays who even need imagination?
I remember that Lal has explained that asubha bhavana was not about the foulness of the body, that it was about the unfruitful nature of sensual things. Again, I am sure you did not mean this; I am raising this since I often see asubha bhavana described incorrectly this way.
Best,
LangHi,
In the above-mentioned post:
Sotapatti Aṅga – The Four Qualities of a Sotāpanna
We have:
3. …The Buddha asks: “Catūhi, bhikkhave, dhammehi samannāgato ariyasāvako sotāpanno hoti avinipātadhammo niyato sambodhiparāyaṇo. Katamehi catūhi?”
Translated: “Bhikkhus, the ariyasāvaka Sotapanna, free of the apāyā, has four qualities. Which four?”
Does “avinipātadhammo” mean “free of the apāyā”?
Thank you!
“āpo, pathavi, and tejo can be attributed to lobha, dosa, and moha…”
“– By the Anagami stage, that trend will lead to the disappearance of kama raga and patigha. Thus, an Anagami would not act with anger or kama raga. Thus, pathavi and tejo in the suddhatthaka generated by an Anagami would be much less proportioned. ”
Is this the right connection:
apo — lobha
pathavi — dosa
tejo — mohaThank you, Lal. This is profound!
When these words are translated into another language, such as my native language of the equivalent of earth, water, fire, air, it gives the impression of very distinct entities from mind.
Yet, there is an intimate connection between “matter” and mind (rupa and nama), fueling each other:
We know that cittā (with their accompanying cetasikā) come from the vibration of hadaya vatthu (which is rupa), and that vibration (in javana cittā), in turns, create rupa based on lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha.
So, that’s why lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha are the six root causes.
Let’s say we look at an arahant “at this level”. The six root causes are no more, so there is no fuel for another hadaya vatthu when the current hadaya vatthu perishes.
Just want to share something related to this topic. Very recently, someone asked me to guide him in learning Dhamma. After some thought I decided to get started with him with this section as the framework:
We are working through the “Moral Living and Fundamentals” section.
He is new to Buddha Dhamma, or at least to true Buddha Dhamma, so this seems a suitable way to get started. More importantly, however, it was because how I approached it myself — first getting on the mundane path and gradually transitioning to the noble path.
After all, it’s best to guide people through what we actually did.
Best,
LangThere is also “musā“, as in musāvāda, that is also a candidate, ie. iccha for the wrong thing, or in the wrong way.
Yes, this is very enlightening, and we are very fortunate. You won’t see this kind of explanation anywhere else, at least not in English, as far as I can see.
Not too long ago, I heard a very common explanation from a long-time “vipassana meditator” of kāyānupassanā as being mindful of bodily movements, and the formal practice of it is walking meditation:
One walks slowly, is mindful of one foot lifting the ground, moving forward, touching the ground again. The meditator does this over and over, walking up and down a meditation trail.
I suppose this does calm the mind down, and this calmness is often mistaken to be removal of defilements.
Finally, @Jorg, if you haven’t read this old post, you will enjoy it:
Anussati and Anupassanā – Being Mindful and Removing Defilements
Here, Lal delved into the word anupassanā (and also anussati).
Best,
Lang
