- This topic has 11 replies, 3 voices, and was last updated 5 months, 4 weeks ago by Lal.
September 8, 2022 at 12:46 am #40204
‘Ussādanañca jaññā, apasādanañca jaññā; ussādanañca ñatvā apasādanañca ñatvā nevussādeyya, na apasādeyya, dhammameva deseyyā’ti— iti kho panetaṁ vuttaṁ. Kiñcetaṁ paṭicca vuttaṁ?
I’d like to know the meaning of this paragraph. According to the Korean translation of the sutta, one should correct the wrong teaching without blaming the bad person. Does it correctly deliver the meaning of the sutta? Is there an important point missing here? I am asking this question because I’m considering several plans to deliver Pure Dhamma to more people. So this topic will significantly impact it. Like media(book, internet column, cartoon, video with computer graphics, etc.), method(bottom-up, top-down, lokiya-lokottara, principle-application, teaching-practice, etc.), and content. So I’d appreciate it if you could help me. For the present question and after then too.
Here is another question but same reason about SN 16.3
“Yo hi koci, bhikkhave, bhikkhu evaṁcitto paresaṁ dhammaṁ deseti: ‘aho vata me dhammaṁ suṇeyyuṁ, sutvā ca pana dhammaṁ pasīdeyyuṁ, pasannā ca me pasannākāraṁ kareyyun’ti; evarūpassa kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno aparisuddhā dhammadesanā hoti.
Yo ca kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu evaṁcitto paresaṁ dhammaṁ deseti: ‘svākkhāto bhagavatā dhammo sandiṭṭhiko akāliko ehipassiko opaneyyiko paccattaṁ veditabbo viññūhīti. Aho vata me dhammaṁ suṇeyyuṁ, sutvā ca pana dhammaṁ ājāneyyuṁ, ājānitvā ca pana tathattāya paṭipajjeyyun’ti. Iti dhammasudhammataṁ paṭicca paresaṁ dhammaṁ deseti, kāruññaṁ paṭicca anuddayaṁ paṭicca anukampaṁ upādāya paresaṁ dhammaṁ deseti. Evarūpassa kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno parisuddhā dhammadesanā hoti.
In this context of the sutta, I think the main point of conveying Dhamma to others is “not to gain faith or favor” but to understand Dhamma’s six supreme qualities(sanditthika, akalika, etc.) and to proceed based on them. Is this right?
If there are any other sutta that can help me, please recommend them to me. Thank you.
September 8, 2022 at 8:31 am #40211
Yes. MN 139 is a critical sutta on the subject.
– I think The two suttas you picked should be good enough, even though there are many suttas on the subject.
Let me think about how to present the key ideas embedded in MN 139. It may take a day or two.
In the meantime, if anyone has any comments or further questions on the subject, please post.
September 8, 2022 at 10:53 am #40216
In the “Araṇavibhaṅga Sutta (MN 139)” the Buddha explains how one should live, explain Dhamma to others, and have dhamma discussions.
1. By analyzing the name of the sutta, we can get some ideas first.
– “rana” means “battle,” and thus “arana” means staying away from conflicts/battles.
– “vibhaṅga” is to analyze.
– Thus the name of the sutta implies “how to follow and teach Dhamma without getting into conflicts/battles with others.
2. Teachings (“Dhammo” in this case) that lead to conflicts are “saraṇa Dhamma.” saraṇa means “with raṇa.”
– Towards the end of the sutta repeats the verse “Tasmā eso dhammo saraṇo” to indicate teachings that lead to conflicts (“kāmapaṭisandhisukhino” or “engaging in sensual pleasures and ” attakilamathānuyogaṁ” or “going through unnecessary suffering” are given as examples. There are more.)
– The opposite teachings are “araṇa Dhamma.” araṇa means “without raṇa.” As opposed to the examples above, “majjhimā paṭipadā” is “araṇa Dhamma.”
3. The word “araṇa” or “araṇṇa” comes in the “Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta”.
– Aranna is conventionally translated as forest (or forest monastery). But the hidden meaning comes from “rana” which means “battle” and thus “aranna” means staying away from battles.
– Thus, “aranna gatō vā” means “get into a calm mindset leaving behind the everyday battles”. In the conventional interpretation is says, “having gone into the forest”.
– See “Prerequisites for the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhāvanā.”
4. Of course, a different meaning comes in the verse “Buddhaṁ saraṇaṁ gacchāmi.” “Saraṇattaya (kp1).”
– This is another example of words having different meanings depending on the context.
P.S.: Now, to the rest of the key statements.
5. The following section — close to the beginning — is the uddesa version (brief description) of the sutta:
“Na kāmasukhamanuyuñjeyya hīnaṁ gammaṁ pothujjanikaṁ anariyaṁ anatthasaṁhitaṁ, na ca attakilamathānuyogamanuyuñjeyya dukkhaṁ anariyaṁ anatthasaṁhitaṁ. Ete kho, bhikkhave, ubho ante anupagamma majjhimā paṭipadā tathāgatena abhisambuddhā, cakkhukaraṇī ñāṇakaraṇī upasamāya abhiññāya sambodhāya nibbānāya saṁvattati. Ussādanañca jaññā, apasādanañca jaññā; ussādanañca ñatvā apasādanañca ñatvā nevussādeyya, na apasādeyya, dhammameva deseyya. Variant: apasādeyya → nāpasādeyya (bj)Sukhavinicchayaṁ jaññā; sukhavinicchayaṁ ñatvā ajjhattaṁ sukhamanuyuñjeyya. Rahovādaṁ na bhāseyya, sammukhā na khīṇaṁ bhaṇe. Variant: na khīṇaṁ → nātikhīṇaṁ (sya-all, km, mr)Ataramānova bhāseyya, no taramāno. Janapadaniruttiṁ nābhiniveseyya, samaññaṁ nātidhāveyyāti—ayamuddeso araṇavibhaṅgassa.”
– Here “ayam uddeso araṇavibhaṅgassa” means “this is the brief description of araṇavibhaṅga.”
– See “Sutta Interpretation – Uddēsa, Niddēsa, Paṭiniddēsa” for a discussion of uddesa, niddesa, paṭiniddēsa.
6. I need to explain one more thing in the above verse. “Ussādanañca jaññā, apasādanañca jaññā; ussādanañca ñatvā apasādanañca ñatvā nevussādeyya, na apasādeyya, dhammameva deseyya.”
– That means “Know what it means to flatter (Ussādanañca; praise too much when in agreement) and to rebuke (apasādanañca; get into heated arguments) when in disagreement. Explain Dhamma with that understanding, i.e., explain Dhamma without getting emotional.”
– This is an issue today. People get into different camps. They start arguing with the opponents and become overly supportive of people in their camps. But one should just explain Dhamma and leave others to decide the merits of those explanations.
7. The rest of the sutta is a niddēsa or a “further description” of the brief uddesa version in the verse in #5.
– Paṭiniddēsa description is normally a lengthy explanation given in an oral discourse, discussing the concepts involved in detail. That is what bhikkhus in Sri Lanka do in an hour-long discourse.
– But you should be able to read the whole sutta with the English translation given in the link. That translation is not bad but does not point out the key points.
– Feel free to ask questions if something is not clear.
September 8, 2022 at 7:02 pm #40222
“i.e., explain Dhamma without getting emotional.”
I often talk about Dhamma with my friend. When he gets the gist of Dhamma, I compliment him. If so, should I be careful in praising at this time? If so, could you tell me more specifically which part I should be in?
September 8, 2022 at 7:56 pm #40223
No. That is not what I meant there. It is OK to complement someone’s progress to encourage.
Just below the sentence you quoted, I explained what I meant as follows:
“This is an issue today. People get into different camps. They start arguing with the opponents and become overly supportive of people in their camps. But one should just explain Dhamma and leave others to decide the merits of those explanations.”
September 8, 2022 at 8:07 pm #40224
I got the point. So, for example, explaining Dhamma without getting emotional is important to avoid deteriorating a discussion into an angry argument. One has to speak without attacking others.
September 8, 2022 at 8:33 pm #40225
Yes. That is correct.
P.S. The Buddha set an excellent example with how he dealt with Devdatta. As we know, Devadatta remained a bhikkhu until his death. Even after he tried to take the life of the Buddha (and injured him), the Buddha did not even expel Devadatta.
– There is no point in getting into emotional “battles” with those with different views.
– But, one should not hesitate to point out any discrepancies in the opposing arguments with evidence from the Tipitaka. It is up to them to examine the evidence presented and decide.
– Once, Devadatta took 500 bhikkhus and left the Buddha. The Buddha sent Ven. Sariputta and Ven. Moggalana to advise those bhikkhus. They were able to bring those bhikkhus back.
September 11, 2022 at 7:14 am #40304
In the Araṇavibhaṅgasutta,
“Sukhavinicchayaṁ jaññā; sukhavinicchayaṁ ñatvā ajjhattaṁ sukhamanuyuñjeyya.”
And its niddēsa version says the ajjhattaṁ sukham is the jhanic pleasure, not adhering to kamaguna.
Yaṁ kho, bhikkhave, ime pañca kāmaguṇe paṭicca uppajjati sukhaṁ somanassaṁ idaṁ vuccati kāmasukhaṁ mīḷhasukhaṁ puthujjanasukhaṁ anariyasukhaṁ.
I think the main point in this paragraph is discriminating between good pleasure and bad. So, after then Buddha said jhanic pleasure, the alternative one.
‘Na āsevitabbaṁ, na bhāvetabbaṁ, na bahulīkātabbaṁ, bhāyitabbaṁ etassa sukhassā’ti—vadāmi. Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati. Vitakkavicārānaṁ vūpasamā ajjhattaṁ sampasādanaṁ cetaso ekodibhāvaṁ avitakkaṁ avicāraṁ samādhijaṁ pītisukhaṁ dutiyaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati. Pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati …pe… tatiyaṁ jhānaṁ …pe… catutthaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati. Idaṁ vuccati nekkhammasukhaṁ pavivekasukhaṁ upasamasukhaṁ sambodhisukhaṁ. ‘Āsevitabbaṁ, bhāvetabbaṁ, bahulīkātabbaṁ, na bhāyitabbaṁ etassa sukhassā’ti—vadāmi. ‘Sukhavinicchayaṁ jaññā; sukhavinicchayaṁ ñatvā ajjhattaṁ sukhamanuyuñjeyyā’ti— iti yaṁ taṁ vuttaṁ idametaṁ paṭicca vuttaṁ.
I’ve thought this over. The listeners of this desana are bhikkhu. So it appears to me that it doesn’t apply to the householders. Is it right?
Also, I’m curious the meaning of “Rahovādaṁ na bhāseyya, sammukhā na khīṇaṁ bhaṇe’ti”. The Eng translation is good, but the Kor version is quite abstruse. So I’m asking because I know roughly what you’re trying to say, but I can’t cross-verify it exactly. I understood this sentence as follows: Don’t criticize in a place where others don’t listen and in public either. If I was wrong please tell me.
September 11, 2022 at 8:21 am #40305
Yes. Your understanding is good.
Let me point to specific places in the sutta, so that others can follow it:
1. The verse you quoted first “Sukhavinicchayaṁ jaññā; sukhavinicchayaṁ ñatvā ajjhattaṁ sukhamanuyuñjeyya” is the beginning of a new section here (labeled 9.1):
– There, the Buddha first describes sukha vedana experienced by anariyas (average humans) who attach to kama guna and indulge in sensual pleasures:
“9.1‘Sukhavinicchayaṁ jaññā; 9.2sukhavinicchayaṁ ñatvā ajjhattaṁ sukhamanuyuñjeyyā’ti—9.3iti kho panetaṁ vuttaṁ. Kiñcetaṁ paṭicca vuttaṁ? 9.4Pañcime, bhikkhave, kāmaguṇā. 9.5Katame pañca? 9.6Cakkhuviññeyyā rūpā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā, 9.7sotaviññeyyā saddā … 9.8ghānaviññeyyā gandhā … 9.9jivhāviññeyyā rasā … 9.10kāyaviññeyyā phoṭṭhabbā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā—9.11ime kho, bhikkhave, pañca kāmaguṇā. 9.12Yaṁ kho, bhikkhave, ime pañca kāmaguṇe paṭicca uppajjati sukhaṁ somanassaṁ idaṁ vuccati kāmasukhaṁ mīḷhasukhaṁ puthujjanasukhaṁ anariyasukhaṁ.
2. Then, (as you mentioned) the Buddha describes the (Ariya) jhanic sukha experienced by those who attain Ariya jhana via the removal of kama raga anusaya. That starts at 9.13 in the above link:
“9.13‘Na āsevitabbaṁ, na bhāvetabbaṁ, na bahulīkātabbaṁ, bhāyitabbaṁ etassa sukhassā’ti—vadāmi. 9.14Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati. 9.15Vitakkavicārānaṁ vūpasamā ajjhattaṁ sampasādanaṁ cetaso ekodibhāvaṁ avitakkaṁ avicāraṁ samādhijaṁ pītisukhaṁ dutiyaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati. 9.16Pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati …pe… tatiyaṁ jhānaṁ …pe… 9.17catutthaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati. 9.18Idaṁ vuccati nekkhammasukhaṁ pavivekasukhaṁ upasamasukhaṁ sambodhisukhaṁ. 9.19‘Āsevitabbaṁ, bhāvetabbaṁ, bahulīkātabbaṁ, na bhāyitabbaṁ etassa sukhassā’ti—vadāmi. 9.20‘Sukhavinicchayaṁ jaññā; 9.21sukhavinicchayaṁ ñatvā ajjhattaṁ sukhamanuyuñjeyyā’ti—9.22iti yaṁ taṁ vuttaṁ idametaṁ paṭicca vuttaṁ.”
– The verse at 9.18: “Idaṁ vuccati nekkhammasukhaṁ pavivekasukhaṁ upasamasukhaṁ sambodhisukhaṁ.” is translated correctly as: “This is called the pleasure of renunciation, the pleasure of seclusion, the pleasure of peace, the pleasure of awakening.”
That could be stated a little better as: “This is called the pleasure of renunciation of sensual pleasures, the pleasure of release from mental agitation (viveka), the pleasure of getting samma samadhi (away from kāmasukha and attakilamathānuyoga,) the pleasure of awakening.”
3. The verse, “Rahovādaṁ na bhāseyya, sammukhā na khīṇaṁ bhaṇe’ti” related to your question comes at 10.1.
-Yes. The English translation there is good. If you read the rest of it, it will become clearer.
– The point is the following: When one comprehends the anicca, dukkha, and anatta nature of this world, it will be easier to engage in such behavior. One just needs to be mindful.
4. Your comment about the Buddha advising bhikkhus to cultivate jhana is valid.
– “Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.”
– It is impossible for “householders” to truly abstain from sensual pleasures and eliminate kama raga anusaya. They can get to anariya jhana (that holds only during this life; some lose the ability to get into jhana even before this life ends, as happened to Devadatta) but not Ariya jhana.
– P.S. If a Sotapanna attains an anariya jhana, it is unlikely they will lose it before dying. Thus, they will be born in a Brahma realm (not a suddhavasa Brahma realm) and attain Arahanthood from there. Thus Sotapannas with anariya jhana are also Angamis, in the sense that they will not return to kama loka.
September 11, 2022 at 2:02 pm #40312
Thank you for the answers. I think I’m getting some clue as to how to proceed.
“If a Sotapanna attains an anariya jhana, it is unlikely they will lose it before dying. Thus, they will be born in a Brahma realm (not a suddhavasa Brahma realm) and attain Arahanthood from there. Thus Sotapannas with anariya jhana are also Angamis, in the sense that they will not return to kama loka.”
It is a very interesting fact. Thank you for telling me.
December 5, 2022 at 1:35 pm #41603cubibobiParticipant
Hi. A follow-up question on “Prerequisites for the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhāvanā” mentioned above (#40216)
We have the verse: “Idha, bhikkhavē, bhikkhu aranna gatō vā rukkhamūla gatō vā sunnāgāra gatō vā nisidati pallankaṃ ābhujitvā, ujuṃ kāyaṃ paṇidhāya, parimukhaṃ satiṃ upaṭṭhapetvā“.
… which in the deeper meaning is about getting to certain mindsets, not merely “going to the forest, to the foot of a tree …”
Regarding the words “gatō vā“, is gatō related to gati?
For us, the deeper meaning here makes total sense. I was having a discussion about this sutta with someone who took only the mundane, conventional meaning. To this person, this deeper interpretation was a “stretch”.
December 5, 2022 at 2:43 pm #41604
“Regarding the words “gatō vā,“ is gatō related to gati?”
No. “gatō vā“ means “once got to” or “once arrived at.”
– The deeper meaning is to cultivate a mind that is free of struggles to keep material possessions, a mindset that cannot be disturbed
easily with sensory attractions, etc., as described in that post.
As you mentioned, it could mean both the mundane and the deeper meaning.
– One could go to a forest, to the foot of a tree … (or a quiet place), and that would help too. Doing a “formal mediation” in a noisy environment would be difficult.
– However, the deeper meaning applies whether one is doing a formal mediation OR “being mindful at all times.”
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