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I doubt that I am at or even near the sotapanna stage, but I’ve always thought that the understanding of anicca, dukkha, anatta gets deeper with each magga phala and culminates at the arahant stage.
So, when you say:
“… I can’t truly believe in Sotapanna’s understanding of anicca / anatta “couldn’t be improved upon”.
… you are right.
A sotapanna‘s understanding of anicca, dukkha, anatta is improved with each magga phala and complete at the arahant stage.
I thought I have seen this in a number of places here at PD, but I did a quick search and saw only one post that alludes to this:
Sankhāra, Kamma, Kamma Bīja, Kamma Vipāka
Under #5, it says:
… Here wisdom means comprehension of the true nature; it starts with getting rid of 10 micchā diṭṭhi and then grows as one understands anicca, dukkha, and anatta to higher levels. Wisdom culminates at the Arahant stage.
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How does the understanding of anicca, dukkha, anatta improve with each stage of magga phala?I remember reading something like this; you can do a search to verify (I’m not getting hits right now):
A sotapanna understands anicca, dukkha, anatta to the extent that he will not do apayagami kamma to enjoy the pleasures of kama, and he still likes to own things that brings such pleasure.
A sakadagami enjoys pleasures but no longer wishes to own things that bring them.
An anagami is no longer attached to kama (freed from the kama loka).
An arahant is not attached to any realm (complete understanding of anicca, dukkha, anatta)
Best,
Lang
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- Furthermore, if anyone has supporting strong evidence for the Buddha was born in India, I don’t mind such information posted here. We need to keep an open mind.
—–
I remember seeing this a while back, which looks convincing to me.
Lumbini, the Birthplace of the Lord Buddha
https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/666Best,
Lang
— From Lal:”The apple that you saw is NOT the same as the apple itself. It is just an image of the apple captured by your eyes”.
The Bāhiya Sutta says something like: “seeing is just a trace of seeing, hearing is just a trace of hearing, …” (“diṭṭhe diṭṭhamattaṃ bhavissati, sute sutamattaṃ bhavissati, …”
These are different ways of expressing the same concept, correct?
– From TripleGemStudent
“I don’t know anything about IT, but what’s the name of the database system that works like your example?”When I wrote that I was thinking of the Oracle Database Management System, since I know something about it. For this system, before it creates or updates a piece of data, it first writes (or logs) the instruction on how to write or update the data.
Eventually the system does write the data itself (when it is convenient to do so), but it is actually the logging mechanism that is critical.
Thank you!
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“To emphasize, only the four mental components are preserved in the nāma loka. The rupa loka has only “material things”, Thus, rupakkhandha is NOT preserved.”
—–
An analogy from the IT field may be helpful here. Imagine a database system that works like this:
(1) A user creates a piece of data at time T1.
(2) The system records not the data itself but instruction on how to create that data; let’s say that the instruction consists of four pieces of information.
(3) At a later time T2 the user wants to retrieve that piece of data; the system goes to the instruction at timestamp T1, executes it per the four pieces of information, creates the data, and presents it to the user.
(4) There are no limits to the storage of the instructions.
Thus, the data itself (rupakkhandha) is NOT preserved; what is preserved is the 4-piece instruction (the four mental components) to recreate that data.
I said to imagine such a storage system, but actually there is a database system that works somewhat like this.
Best,
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“P.S. Taṇhā happens automatically due to “bad gati.” We have control over “upādāna” because that is when we become aware of the “attachment.” Thus, if we are mindful, we can realize we have started cultivating abhisankhara and stop it. That is the basis of Ananapasati/Satipatthana!”
Thank you for reminding us of this, i.e. control over upadana. And you emphasized it again in the newest post Anuseti – How Anusaya Grows with Saṅkhāra
#8
Thus, we must stop the process of “anuseti” (cultivating abhisaṅkhāra) as soon as realizing attachment to an ārammaṇa. This is the basis of Ānāpānasati/Satipaṭṭhāna.
…A number of vipassana/satipatthana retreats out there teach people to focus on the “vedana paccaya tanha” step, the most typical of which is the “vipassana” as taught by S.N. Goenka. This tradition teaches people to scan the body for physical vedana to stop tanha for them.
Thus, they are scanning the wrong things. Instead we should be “scanning” for abhisaṅkhāra, stopping apuññabhisaṅkhāra (at least at the beginning) as soon as we catch them.
Without being exposed to true Dhamma I would still have been doing anapana as breath meditation and vipassana/satipatthana as above.
Thank you, Lal.
I was thinking that past pañcakkhandhā is namagotta, and that the upadana part was what created kammic energy.
So, upadana creates new kammic energy. For an arahant, there is no new kammic energy, but there is still past kammic energy.
#44834
“Viññāṇa Dhātu includes Records With and Without Kammic Energy”
To put this in terms of the five aggregates, is it correct to say that:
Records without kammic energy are mere pañcakkhandhā and with kammic energy are pañcupādānakkhandhā?
Best,
LangI thought of a wording that helps me personally understand this better:
“Manāyatana or any other āyatana works the same way. Sensory faculties LEAD TO āyatana for average humans, but not for Arahants.”.
(replacing BECOME with “LEAD TO”)
If this kind of phrasing makes sense to others, there are other synonyms of “lead to” that can be used:
bring, bring on, produce, generate, etc.
Also, using the example of someone watching an X-rated movie, I have another thought: āyatanā come in clusters.
First, the “pleasure” really takes place in the mind, so we have manāyatana and cakkhayatana happening together.
In this kind of movie, there are also sounds to illustrate the passion. Thus there are likely cakkhayatana, sotayatana, and manāyatana happening in the viewer.
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My guess is that the experience of an arahant can still be described by the same verse:
“cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṁ“, because:
(1) For a living arahant, there is still a cakku pasada rupa and a hadaya vatthu.
(2) Elsewhere Lal has explained that paticca in this context is “coming together” — not the same as “pati + icca” as in paticca samuppada. Thus, for an arahant, there is still paticca in this sense.
We know that cakkhuviññāṇaṁ for an arahant is pure and vastly different from that of ours; it’s just not fathomable to us. If someone can make up a special term to describe that to help him understand better then it’s all good (perhaps something like “cakkhuñāṇaṁ” (without the “vi“)).
Anyhow, it is much easier to draw the distinction between an arahant and us in the subsequent verse: there is NO “tiṇṇaṁ saṅgati phasso” for arahants, but there is for us. And this point can serve us better in terms of practice — to work to reduce “san“.
Best,
Lang
Kusala-Mula PS is directed toward Nibbana. In this context, can chanda — as in Satara Iddhipada — be another substitute for upadana?
My mind has been strongly conditioned to link tanha and upadana to Akusala-Mula PS. We now learn that they are neutral words, but it will take time to shake that off.
Thank you.
LangUntil then, humans see the cultivation of (abhi)saṅkhāra as “pleasure”.
Is this “pleasure” also described by the word Assāda, as in Assāda, Ādīnava, Nissarana?
Fascinating thread with much insight. Thank you!
“Arahants don’t have vexation, that is why they don’t feel pleasure.”
To be more precise, we can say that arahants don’t feel mental pleasure (somanassa vedana). They still feel sukkha vedana (and also dukha vedana, but NO domanassa vedana as you pointed out).
A question about something totally unrelated: if we get a chance to take care of an arahant, to help make his/her physical life as comfortable as possible, then it is of tremendous merits for us, correct?
Lang
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“Please let me know if anyone has seen him refer to various types of anusaya and abhisankhara. I need to review them to see if there are any explanations of those terms.”
I can confirm a couple of things at this point:
(1) There are no reference to anusaya and abhisankhara in the discourses from a 10-day course.
That said, there are longer courses in this tradition: 20-day, 30-day, 45-day, 60-day.
I don’t know if there are discourses in those longer courses. I do know for sure that the technique remains the same: scanning bodily sensations from head to toes.
(2) Many practitioners in this tradition do believe that this practice alone leads to wisdom, that book knowledge is not necessary.
Again, that said, there is a 7-day course that discussed the Satipatthana Sutta. Those who have gone through three 10-day courses can take this course.
I just saw that the discourses for that course are also online:
SN Goenka Mahasatipatthana Sutta Discourse (ENGLISH)
The book used in this course has Pali / English side by side, and the English part is a word-for-word translation.
It has been too long since I took that course. I will need to re-listen here and there, but I do remember the impression I had at that time: that he interpreted the Satipattana Sutta in a way to fit this technique, not the other way around.
Finally, this tradition is not about breath meditation, but it does play an important role. Breath meditation is used to “sharpen” the mind so that the mind can observe subtler “realities”, meaning bodily sensations. For a 10-day course, the first 3 days are spent on breath meditation. For a 20-day course, I heard that the first 10 days were spent on breath meditation. Furthermore, they take breath meditation to be anapanasati.
Lal wrote:
If you have a (preferably short) video on his description of “sankhara,” please post it so that we can get an idea of what he really means.For those who have taken the 10-day courses in this tradition, the following nightly discourses should be familiar.
These are definitely not short, but I’ll point out a few segments which should be sufficient to get what is meant by sankhara in this technique. I know that when we pick and choose like this then then we are taking things out of context, but you do have the full discourses if you’d like to listen to all of them.
— Day 4:
10 Day Vipassana Course – Day 4 (English)
53:00 “The whole technique is to divide …”
Day 4 is the day one starts on “vipassana“. From about 53:00 on he described the technique of dividing and dissecting bodily sensations, similar to what Jorg pointed out:
“He or she would be able to reduce the coarseness of the sensations, resulting in more subtle sensations that feel more pleasant. This would also result in a reduced feeling of anger”.
He also introduced sankhara here, as mental reaction to different types of physical sensations.
— Day 5:
The first part of this day is again about dividing and dissecting sensations.
15:00 : he introduced the noble truths, as related to this techniqueStarting around 39:00, he talked about paticca samuppada, starting with tanha
39:00 : tanha
42:00 : sankhara, avijja
47:00 : where in the chain to break — vedana
48:00 : anicca as the arising and passing away of sensations
59:00 : sankhara
1:00:00 : What full liberation is like, why sensations are the key— Day 6
21:00 : sankhara as related to the kalapas; 4 types of “food,” two of which are mental: sankhara old and new
key to the technique: stop generating new sankhara (by not reacting to sensations with craving or aversion); then old sankhara arise and pass away.
Full liberation happens when all old sankhara are gone.Best!
In
Conditions for the Four Stages of Nibbāna
Can we add tanha as another way to characterize the stages of nibbana: kāma tanhā, bhava hanhā, vibhava tanhā.
vibhava tanhā is removed at the sōtapanna stage.
kāma tanhā is weakened at the sakadāgāmi stage and removed at the anāgāmi stage.
bhava tanhā is removed at the arahant stage.
