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Embodied said: “a)When i focus on breathing there are very few thoughts arising.”
Is that a good thing?
The goal of meditation is a calm mind, not a mind devoid of thoughts.The mind should be devoid of BAD thoughts (with greed, hate, or ignorance); that is what makes the mind calm in the long term. It happens when one stops such BAD thoughts from arising. That is Anapana or Satipatthana.
One should be able to think much clearer about Dhamma concepts (i.e., GOOD thoughts) when in meditation.
Welcome to the discussion forum, Mahendran!
This is a bit complicated issue and I thought it is better to write a post on it. Hope to publish it in a day or so. Will provide a link here.
“y not” said: “But you will recall that in the gandhabba posts it is stated, and more than once, quite simply that the gandhabba exits only in human and animal realm”.
What I meant was that the word “gandhabba” is used to describe the “trija kaya” that is created at the cuti-patisandhi moment for animals and humans only. “Trija” means with three “kaya“.
Both gandhabbas and brahhmas have a “trija kaya“, but a brahma kaya is NOT referred to as a gandhabba.
Four types of bodies or “kaya” are possible, see, “Manomaya Kaya (Gandhabba) and the Physical Body“.
There is a key reason why only the “trija kaya” of a human/animal has a special name of gandhabba. The word gandhabba comes from “gandha“ + “abba” or “inhaling aroma” (gandhabba means “aroma”). See #6 in my previous reply. This is why brahma kaya is NOT referred to as a gandhabba; brahmas do not do “gandha abba“.
Even if a gandhabba is born with a trija kaya at the cuit-patisandhi moment, it is likely to acquire the fourth kaya. There may be different gandhabbas out there with “different densities of the fourth kaya“. Another point is that when a “gadnhabba descends to a mother’s womb”, any fourth kaya it may have comes off, and only the “trija kaya” merges with the zygote in the womb; see, “What does Buddha Dhamma (Buddhism) say about Birth Control?“.
By the way, devas have all four “kaya“. They are born at the cuti-patisandhi moment with all four kaya, but the karaja kaya is extremely fine. It is said that numerous devas can fit in to an area of the size of a hole in a needle. So, you see the mechanisms are different in different realms.
It will take time to sort out these issues. It is not possible to discuss all these details even with many posts. So, there could still be details that are not even in the posts. Even though these could, in principle, be explained in much more detail, I have time limitations and space limitations (the web site already has over 500 posts). Furthermore, I cannot anticipate all the questions people may have.
But these are important issues to be cleared up. This is why it is important to have the discussion forum.
I was trying to find the key issue that “Embodied” and “y not” are trying to resolve. I think it could be in the following statement by “y not”:
“I expanded on your.. ‘ i’m a gandhabba that is using this very body to type’,saying that you cannot be ONLY the gandhabba, for that will not be there when you are in the higher realms.”1.Beings in the higher realms, especially in the 20 brahma realms, have very fine “bodies” like our gandhabbas. These are not “bodies” that we can see.
2. To get an idea, imagine diving the body of an ant to a hundredth of its size. We will not be able to see that. A gandhabba would be of size at least a million-fold smaller than that!
– To put it another way, human cell is less than a billionth of a meter (millionth of a mm). A gandhabba descending to a womb merges with a single cell in the womb. So, you can imagine how small it is.3. So, all those brahmas have such fine bodies. So, they have ONLY their gandhabba; no other physical body. Yet they can see and listen, But they cannot type or touch, because they do not have solid bodies like ours.
-They also have gathi and asavas.
– These ultra-fine bodies are created by kammic energy. They are extremely complex, even though unimaginably small.4. Our gandhabbas have such fine bodies as those brahmas. Our gandhabbas have gathi and asavas too, even while in paralowa, i.e., when not inside a physical body.
– Those gathi and asavas are certainly not in the physical body or even in the brain. The brain is just a very sophisticated computer that helps manage body movements.
– This is why when the gandhabba comes out of a physical body, there is no visible change in the body, except that it is not alive anymore. But it has the same size as before.5. But that tiny gandhabba is the one making you type or speak, etc.. In fact, you are your gandhabba, the mental body. The physical body is just a huge outer layer! Speaking and body movements are done with the help of the brain. See, “Brain – Interface between Mind and Body”
6. Some gandhabbas can become more dense by inhaling aroma. Then they can be seen by those with supernormal powers, or even by some normal humans (there are very few with such capabilities). So, those “ghost like” figures shown in cartoons depict such “dense gandhabbas”.
I know that it is hard for one to visualize this situation. I have given these details in a number of posts. If you are really interested on the subject, you should do a search using the key word “gandhabba” and print out and read all of them.
It is not possible for me to go over all that. But if you can then ask questions based on those posts (give the post and bullet numbers), then I can clarify in more detail any unresolved issues.
Yes, Donna. You have the right idea.
Once one’s all gathi are removed one has attained Nibbana!
Of course, one should start with getting rid of lobha gati, dosa gati, which will be first reduced to gati associated with kama raga/bhava raga and patigha. Then moha gati will be reduced to various gati associated with avijja.
With the comprehension of Tilakkhana (in four stages), one removes those too, and by that time all types of gati contaminated with defilements would have been removed.
However, there could be some character behaviors (not associated with lobha, dosa, moha) may still be left over. I think that is what Johnny mentioned below. For example, one young Arahant had a habit of jumping over things.
Hi Alay. Welcome to the discussion forum!
Some parts of your question have been answered in the following topic:
“adding kamma vs. receiving vipaka“.Please pay attention to the “two-step process” discussed in my reply. I don’t want to repeat the stuff that is already there. That basic understanding will help a lot to go further. Let me know what you think.
By the way, do you have a science background? For example, does that post on quantum entanglement make any sense? That is not necessary, and not many people are familiar with such concepts. But it will help me tailor my reply accordingly.
Johnny said: 1. ” But I believe most people would have in some point of their lives experienced a sense of emptiness and loneliness after or even while enjoying sense pleasures.”
2. “And because they are not exposed to Buddha Dhamma, they continue to do more of those worldly things which they think can ‘fix’ their problems.”Very true in both cases.
They don’t know about any other way, other than to seek even higher doses of alcohol, drugs, etc.
That is very unfortunate. This is why we should try to spread the message of the Buddha to anyone interested. That may make a big difference in some people’s lives. One good thing about the internet is that any person will have access to website like this one and could be exposed to the teachings of the Buddha.
When one can experience the relief in following the Buddha’s path, one will never go back to alcohol or drugs. It will not be easy in the beginning, but if traction is made, that will change those lives forever.
Johnny said: “We often forget that suffering is our best teacher. It is like the entrance ticket to Nibbana.”
Suffering by itself cannot be the best teacher, unless one is aware that a solution exists. So, if one who is suffering is exposed to Buddha Dhamma, that could be a huge opportunity for that person. Most people who are suffering do not realize that there is a solution; they are just not aware of Buddha’s correct teachings.
Of course, you are correct in the sense that, for one who is familiar with Buddha Dhamma, “a suffering event” can be an eye opener. That could be either major life event for oneself or even to another, that clearly illustrates the anicca nature and the dangers in the rebirth process.
Hi Johnny,
I think the best way to answer your question is to say the following:Vinnana means acting without nana or wisdom.
That basically means acting with either the worse form of avijja with one or more of 10 types of micca ditthi OR just acting without the comprehension of Tilakkhana. The latter case is less dangerous, of course. So, there are different levels of avijja, micca ditthi, and corresponding vinnana.
So, when akusala-mula pavutti paticca samuppada cycles are in operation, that means acting with vinnana.
Pancaupadanakkhandha also arises when one is craving for something in this world. So, akusala-mula pavutti paticca samuppada cycles must be in operation.
Yes, Johnny. I talked only about a fraction of the fraction of pancakkhadha.
I talked mainly about one’s own body, which is only a part of the rupakkhandha. But it is an important part that give rise to sakkaya ditthi.
One can then think about the external rupa that one is attached to: spouse, children, enemies (attachment via hate), material things that one own, so on.
Then those give rise to the four mental aggregates: vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana. They are therefore inherently connected with the rupakkhandha. For example, one forms vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana about one’s own body.When one gets attached to any single material thing, a whole host of mental aggregates get involved around it.
For example, when one sees the beauty of one’s body in the mirror, one may become happy (vedana), get the sanna that one is better looking than so and so, generate thoughts about how to maintain it that way or make it even better by doing various things (sankhara), and an overall sense of satisfaction about the future (vinnana).
When one sees a grey hair for the first time in the mirror, or if the face gets disfigured due an injury, for example, those may reverse.
So, there are million ways to contemplate on this complex issue.
Also, we need to keep in mind that even the rupakkhandha is mental too, in the sense that when we see a rupa, it is instantly added to the memory as a mental impression of that rupa (together with the four mental aggregates about that rupa). See: “Pancupādānakkhandha – It is All Mental“.For example, when we recall seeing a person (or even oneself) 20 years ago, the picture that comes mind is that of that person at that time. That is part of the rupakkhandha, but it is just a mental impression.
Furthermore, we form attachment to only a fraction of the five aggregates (pancakkhandha), and those are the panca upadanakkhandha. I have discussed the following example: Pancakkhadnha is like a huge wall, and when a fly lands on the wall, it grabs only an insignificant part of the wall surface with it tiny feet.
Everything that we see, hear, smell, taste, touch, and think about is included in the pancakkhadha (including future plans). But we get attached to only a fraction of them. Until one sees the futility (and danger) of those attachments, it is still hard to get rid of those attachments.
It is very important to make the connection to dasa akusala and micca ditthi (and the bad outcomes arising due to that connection), which is hardly talked about these days. But that is where the real connection to future suffering is.
Embodied said: “At this point one should stop the contemplation process and start breathing in and out to cleanse the body; sometimes the body itself automatically gets rid of those things via a long out breath. This will lead to passaddhi (tranquility) of both the body and the mind, and one gets to samadhi gradually. One needs to think about the lightness of the body and the mind (passaddhi) and the niramisa sukha (from samadhi) that results. One also should think about upekkha (equanimity) too.
When the body and the mind calm down enough and when one feels relaxed, one should go back to cultivating the previous three sabbojjanga, i.e., start on the contemplation process of dhammavicaya.”As Tobias confirmed, that is correct. That quote is from the post,”11. Magga Phala via Cultivation of Saptha Bojjanga“.
Your earlier description of anicca is fine too, Embodied.
Each person sees it one’s own way. But the key is to see the “unfruitfullness” in worldly things, and that if one commits dasa akusala to get those worldly things one will face bad consequences in the future.By the way, the following post may be helpful for everyone in writing responses or asking questions in formatting the text (and to provide links): “How to Reply to a Forum Question“.
Hi Tobias,
There is not that much to be gained by doing an Abhidhamma analysis.
This is a matter of getting the basic idea. That will change one’s sanna about this world>.Sanna is a universal cetasika and arises in each and every citta. So, once one gets the “yathabhuta nana” it will be embedded in one’s cittas forever.
As one’s understanding of Tilakkhana grows, one’s panna (wisdom) will grow and the asobhana cetasika lobha, dosa, moha will diminish. Samma Nana — that is attained upon the completion of the Noble Eightfold Path — is complete when panna is optimized (and at that time one is an Arahant and one had attained full release or Samma vimutti).
The fundamental idea is discussed in detail in the fourth desana on Tilakkhana that was just published: “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“. And that discussion will continue in the next and last desana in that series. That is what needs to be grasped. Of course, some may have already grasped it, and there are many ways to get there.
If there are more questions on this issue, it is better to discuss them at the forum on “Three Marks of Existence Discourses“. Complete removal of micca ditthi is attained upon full understanding of Tilakkhana.
For example, Anapana sati meditation is not breath meditation. See “6. Anāpānasati Bhāvanā (Introduction)” and the following two posts.
I really recommend reading the section on “Bhāvanā (Meditation)“.
Tobias said: “Micca ditthi is one of the dasa akusala done with the mind. That means also kusala abhisankhara (this should be punna abhisankhara; see the comments on May 14, 2019 below) are done with the dasa akusala involved, at least until the Sotapanna stage (where micca ditthi is removed).”
This is a very good point, and I hope everyone pays attention to it.
This is why one cannot get to Nibbana via the mundane eightfold path. One’s micca ditthi NOT completely removed until one comprehends the REAL NATURE (yathabhuta nana), with Tilakkhana.
For example, one on the mundane path abstains from stealing, sexual misconduct, etc MAINLY because one is afraid of rebirth in lower realms. But if the temptation is high, one may go ahead and do it anyway.
However, one who has comprehended Tilakkhana has seen the UNFRUITFULESS sense pleasures. So, in addition to the “being afraid factor”, one also KNOWS that no matter how tempting, it is not WORTHWHILE.
– Of course, a Sotapanna has not fully grasped Tilakkhana, so he/she will absolutely not do only those anantariya kamma. Only an Arahant has the full yathabhuta nana, and thus will not do ANY akusala kamma.This is discussed in detail in the fourth desana on Tilakkhana that was just published: “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“.
P.S. on June 17, 2022
My comment that Johnny quoted “A Sotapanna who gets to the first Ariya jhana has removed kama raga, but may not have had the Anagami phala moment.” is not correct.
It should read as, “A Sotapanna who gets to the first anariya jhana has not removed kama raga. But he/she would still be –in effect — be an Anagami in the sense of “not coming back to the kama loka.”
1. One with a given jhana will be born in the corresponding brahma realm.
– So, a Sotapanna with the first anariya jhana will be born in the corresponding brahma realm, not in the Suddhāvāsa, which is reserved for those who have attained the Anagami phala moment.
– But he/she is still an Anagami (“na” + “agami” or not coming back to kama loka). He/she will attain the Anagami phala moment there and then will be born in the Suddhāvāsa.2. Any magga phala can be attained in any realm (human and above), with the following exceptions: One cannot attain the Sotapanna stage in arupavacara realms, since one does not have ears to listen to Dhamma. Also, no magga phala possible in the Asanna realm.
– But a Sotapanna can attain higher magga phala if born in arupavacara realms too.
