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OK. I did not catch the “sati” part of Siebe‘s question.
Yes. If sati (mindfulness) is there, then asobhana cetasika like jealousy and hate cannot arise. Only sobhana cetasika can arise together with other sobhana cetasika. Sobhana and asobhana cetasika do not mix in a given citta.
Siebe is probably talking about my analogy of a picture drawn with dark colors to show how a pure citta is contaminated by asobhana cetasika in a post at: “Living Dhamma – Fundamentals“.
It is just an analogy. The Buddha used many such analogies to clarify things. Don’t take it literally.
Issa (jealousy) or dosa (hate) cetasika will of course darken (defile) a mind.
Siebe said: “Do you belief the Buddha did possess some kind of knowledge (wisdom)…”
Of course I do. The whole idea is that a Buddha is a human who has perfected mind capabilities to the ultimate level, and is able to comprehend everything about the world. The problem most people have is they think the Buddha is yet another guru or a top level philosopher. One of course starts there, since one does not want have blind faith.
You may know the name of the sutta, where someone asked the Buddha “Are you a human, a deva, or a brahma?”. The Buddha said he was none of those. That he had transcended all in the 31 realms.
I think there is enough material at the website, especially with the “Nāma & Rūpa to Nāmarūpa” subsection, to see that the Buddha is someone who truly transcended this world.
The material I have presented so far is just scratching the surface. I myself have to spend the rest of my life to write what I know right now (and I do get frustrated about that). What I know came mainly from my later teacher Waharaka Thero’s desanas, but I am learning more from the Tipitaka now. The Buddha said that what he has taught can be compared to a handful of leaves in a forest. So, one will never be able to comprehend even a fraction of what he knew.
Also see: “Buddha Dhamma: Non-Perceivability and Self-Consistency“.Siebe said: “In the sutta’s the Buddha advises the khandha’s, ofcourse also the vinnanakhandha, to see, with correct wisdom, like this: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not myself.’
What does this mean? How to understand this?”That is a good question, and most of the website is focused on explaining this subtle point. This is really about sakkaya ditthi: whether there is anything in this world to be worthwhile to be called “mine” and to do immoral things to maintain those “things”.
The Buddha rejected both “no-self” and an “everlasting self”. We cannot say “I don’t exist” or “you don’t really exist”. We both know that we do exist. But, this existence is transient. There is nothing to brag about even if one is a king, deva, or a brahma.
In this existence, we are humans. But in the next, we could an animal, a deva, or brahma. And that depends on what we have done in the past, and more importantly, what we are doing in this life (because we can get out of this suffering-filled existence by learning and practicing Dhamma).
In fact, at a deeper level, all five aggregates arise due to six causes (lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha). But we only need to get rid of lobha, dosa, moha to break this samasaric journey. And that is done by staying away from dasa akusala, and learning and comprehending Tilakkhana. Panna (wisdom) will grow and all six roots will be taken out.
Now, this idea can be understood (and expressed) by different people in different ways. So, I would encourage others to give their opinions.
Yes, Siebe, it is a mess. It will take a while for most people to clear the cobwebs and see what the Buddha really meant by some of these verses in suttas.
Comprehending “Stream of consciousness” is what is meant by “viññāṇasotaṃ pajānāti“. As discussed in the recent posts at the website, viññāṇa is a key concept to understand:
“Viññāna Aggregate”Here is the sutta: Sampasādanīya Sutta (DN 28): In the sutta, after citing various Noble characteristics of the Buddha and Arahants, Ven. Sariputta basically reviews various aspects of the Dhamma, and the particular section that Siebe refers to is the “1.5. Dassanasamāpatti
desanā” or attaining the first stage of Samma Ditthi (dassana or vision). Therefore, Walshe is wrong is saying that this refers to Arahants.Here is the Pali version of the section quoted by Siebe and given above by SengKiat: “Puna caparaṃ, bhante, idhekacco samaṇo vā brāhmaṇo vā ātappamanvāya … pe … tathārūpaṃ cetosamādhiṃ phusati, yathāsamāhite citte imameva kāyaṃ uddhaṃ pādatalā adho kesamatthakā tacapariyantaṃ pūraṃ nānappakārassa asucino paccavekkhati: ‘atthi imasmiṃ kāye kesā lomā … pe … lasikā muttan’ti. Atikkamma ca purisassa chavi¬maṃ¬salo¬hi¬taṃ aṭṭhiṃ paccavekkhati. Purisassa ca viññāṇasotaṃ pajānāti, ubhayato abbocchinnaṃ idha loke appa¬tiṭṭhi¬tañca paraloke appa¬tiṭṭhi¬tañca. Ayaṃ catutthā ¬dassa¬na¬samā¬patti. Eta¬dā-nuttari¬yaṃ, bhante, ¬dassa¬na¬samā¬pattīsu“.
Basically, this section talks about how a person can see that 32 parts of the body are just composed of satara maha bhuta, and thus have no life in them by themselves, and are subjected to decay and death. One can comprehend this easily with the role of the gandhabba. It is the gandhabba that gives “life” to body parts; when it leaves, the body is lifeless.
In the third verse, it says, the third vision is attained when one realizes that the vinnana is what keeps the life either in this world or in the netherworld (paralowa as gandhabba). It does not mention gandhabba, but that is the idea.
In the fourth verse, the fourth vision is to realize that when vinnana ceases to exist, there is no footing either in this world or in paralowa.
Anyway, it is not possible to translate a verse without realizing the scope of the sutta. Above is just the key idea. This clearly shows that one cannot translate a sutta word-by-word.
By the way, section 1.3 of the sutta is “1.3 Gabbhavakkanti Desana” or about gandhabba descending to a womb. Gabba is a womb and vakkanti (or okkanti) is entering.
Vince said: “Yes I posted something, then edited it and tried to post it again. I figured it might show up eventually, but oh well.”
Once submitted, a given comment can be revised only within an hour. That could be the reason why the comment got deleted, but I am not sure. In principle, the system should not allow a revision after an hour.
Vince wrote: “Somebody correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t it true that any Ariya will still have minor wrong views about what is and isn’t good to do until they reach the Arahant level, because until that point Samma Ditthi is still incomplete?”
Yes. As Tobias G also elaborated, Samma Ditthi (or panna) is completed at the Arahant stage. There is no amoha cetasika. As Samma Ditthi grows, the moha asobhana cetasika weakens and the panna sobhana cetasika grows.
Thanks, SengKiat for the quotes.
However, that section of the sutta is not about an Arahant. It will be good if Siebe can point to the exact location of the verse within the sutta.
@Siebe Re: DN28§7
I cannot locate the location in the sutta where this phrase is at. Could you (1) either post the Pali version of the verse or (2) post the link to the English version so that I can find where it is in the Sutta?
This is a bit complex issue. I am still trying to figure out how to get all the relevant factors into a single post.
By the way, Johnny_Lim and Akvan have pointed out the important of the five niyamas. However, the traditional interpretation of the five niyamas is not correct.
I have discussed this a bit at: “What is Kamma? – Is Everything Determined by Kamma?”
I hope to finish the post within a few days.
I am thinking about closing out this topic. It was a good discussion and contains a lot of useful information. If there are no more questions, I will close it in a week a so.
Of course, it will remain on the forum list, so that anyone can come back and read. Also, if at any time, another relevant point on this topic is needed to be discussed, I can re-open the discussion. Please send me the question directly to [email protected].
Thank you, Siebe, for staring this discussion. Thanks and much merits to all who participated.
Siebe said: “..do you believe it is possible that one can deliberately come back to ‘this world, the 31 realms of samsara, while one is totally freed from samsara, to help other beings?”
This is a totally absurd idea in Mahāyāna Buddhism: That past Buddhas can come back to this world.
Once liberated from this world of 31 realms there is no coming back. At Parinibbana, nama and rupa are totally separated (nama rupa paricceda), and that is not a reversible process.
From the discussion that we have had on this topic, it is very clear that it is the defiled vinnana that is responsible for keeping one in this world. A Buddha (or an Arahant) will NEVER re-generate a defiled vinnana in order to REMAIN in this world.
It is only because we have a defiled vinnana that we are so reluctant (and even afraid) to be liberated from this suffering-filled world. This is especially because we are not aware of the unimaginable suffering that awaits in the apayas. Even in this world, how many people commit suicide because they just cannot bear the suffering (mental or physical), including some famous people with all the money in the world?
One can get a vague idea of the suffering in the lower realms in the apayas, by looking at the animal suffering. How many fish die of unimaginable suffering once hauled in to boats when caught in nets. They could be there for hours, writhing in pain, before dying. When a wolf pack attacks a deer, for example, they don’t kill and eat; they eat the flesh while the animal is still alive. Poeple tend to enjoy National Geographic videos where a tiger chases a deer and eats it alive. Most people are not aware that they themselves could be subjected to similar situations in future births.
Good question, Siebe.
These verses have been totally and utterly incorrectly translated in many places: on the internet, in discussion boards, in books, etc. I have not seen a correct translation in print anywhere.
This question was asked by a bhikkhu, and the Buddha re-phrased his question as follows (Kevaṭṭa Sutta; DN 11):
“Kattha āpo ca pathavī, tejo vāyo na gādhati;
Kattha dīghañca rassañca, aṇuṃ thūlaṃ subhāsubhaṃ;
Kattha nāmañca rūpañca, asesaṃ uparujjhatī’ti“.Translated: “where would patavi, apo, jejo, vayo, not take hold? Where would anything made of them – whether spread out or condensed together, whether small or large, whether good (subha) or bad (asubha) – would not take hold? Where would nama and rupa be totally uprooted?”
Buddha’s answer was:
“Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ, anantaṃ sabbatopabhaṃ.
Ettha āpo ca pathavī, tejo vāyo na gādhati;
Ettha dīghañca rassañca, aṇuṃ thūlaṃ subhāsubhaṃ;
Ettha nāmañca rūpañca, asesaṃ uparujjhati;
Viññāṇassa nirodhena, etthetaṃ uparujjhatī’”ti.Translated: “viññāna is unseen, infinite, and leads to the rebirth process for all”. (This is explained in: Pabhassara Citta, Radiant Mind, and Bhavanga).
The rest of the verse is:
“With the vinnana stopped from arising, patavi, apo, tejo, vayo, and anything spread out or condensed, small or large, good or bad, and also nama and rupa will be totally uprooted (do not get a chance to take hold)”.In other words, when vinnana is stopped from arising (at the death of an Arahant), nama and rupa (pancakkhandha), which includes patavi, apo, tejo, vayo, and other rupa made of them, will not take hold anywhere in the 31 realms.
Vinnana is discussed in detail in: “Viññāna Aggregate“.
Siebe said: “are you refering to MN102§7 (from Bodhi’s translation):
“That any recluse or brahmin could say: “Apart from material form, apart from feeling, apart from perception,apart from formations, I shall describe the coming and going of consciousness, its passing away and re-appearance, its growth,increase, and maturation” – that is impossible”.Yes. Thank you for saving my time looking for a reference sutta. Here is the Pali verse from that sutta (Pañcattaya Sutta, Majjhima Nikāya 102):
“aham aññatra rūpā, aññatra vedanāya, aññatra saññāya, aññatra saṅkhārehi, viññāṇassa āgatiṃ vā gatiṃ vā cutiṃ vā upapattiṃ vā vuddhiṃ vā virūḷhiṃ vā vepullaṃ vā paññapessāmī’ti—netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjati..”.
There are several suttas with the same or similar phrase.
Siebe said: “..just to be sure…when an arhant dies does the mind survive death, even when there is no rebirth somewhere in the 31 realms? Is there in some way a continuing existence? Or does at the moment of parinibbana nothing continue?”
We can get an answer by looking at a fundamental concept in Abhidhamma:
There are three fundamental entities (paramatta dhamma) in our world of 31 realms: Citta, cetasika, rupa.
Then there is Nibbana, the fourth paramatta dhamma, and Nibbana does not belong to this world.
So, what happens at the Parinibbana (death) of an Arahant is that all three fundamental entities associated with the world of 31 realms cease to exist, and Nibbana is attained. Mind becomes free of rupa and is instantaneously released from the 31 realms.
We do not know what exists in Nibbana, because citta, cetasika, rupa,(and thus our types of feelings, perceptions, etc) do not exist in Nibbana.
But as the Buddha clearly stated, there a “tad ayatana” or a “perfect place” called Nibbana, and it is eternal, and “blissful” (Nibbanic bliss). Again, that Nibbanic bliss cannot be explained with our terminology. It is definitely outside the 31 realms. So, nothing continues IN THIS WORLD. That is all the Buddha has said about Nibbana (as far as I understand), and thus that is all I can say.
Siebe quotes me from a post at the website: ““The suffering stops permanently. The mind become PERMANENTLY pure and be detached permanently from any type of physical body, dense or fine”.
Yes. That is correct.
The key point is that for any living being in this world, ALL five aggregates MUST be there at given time (except for the asanna realm and when an Arahant is in Nirodha Samapatti).
The Buddha specifically said that there can be no “migration” of the vinnana to a new bhava unless accompanied by the rupakkhandha. I will find the sutta reference and place here when I find it.
Upon Parinibbana, the vinnanakkhandha is terminated; it cannot grasp a new bhava. Thus, there is no rebirth anywhere in the 31 realms.
This is what is embodied in the Nāmarūpa Paricceda Ñana: Kamma Viññāna and Nāmarūpa Paricceda Ñana
This is a key point. Thank you, Siebe, for pointing it out.
For a living being in the Asanna realms, there are no nama khandhas (vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana), and the life in the physical body maintained by kammic energy (just like in nirodha samapatti). When the kammic energy is terminated, a vinnana for a new bhava is grasped for that Asanna being.
In his reply to Johhny_Lim, Siebe said:” Do you really belief extinction is a noble goal?”
This is a common fear that many people have, including prominent “secular Buddhists” like Stephen Batchelor and Ven. Analayo. And that is why one should not even contemplate on attaining the Arahanthood. The danger is that when one has these “mundane ideas” about Nibbana and keep generating sankhara about their “pet theories” those are actually akusala thoguths, since they are generated with micca ditthi.
One should always start at the base level, and this is why I recommend those with doubts about laws of kamma, Nibbana, rebirth, etc to start at the first sections of the “Living Dhamma” section.
In case you don’t read those posts, the base level is where one sees the “peace of mind” by staying away from dasa akusala (including micca ditthi). Then one’s mind gets “purified enough” to comprehend the anicca nature and begins to understand the possible unimaginable suffering in the apayas, and thus become a Sotapanna Anugami. As one makes an effort, one will get to the Sotapanna stage.
Even at the stage, one should not think about Nibbana being “extinction” and worry about that. The next step is to be released from the kama loka. That itself is a difficult one, since we are so enamored by the perceived sense pleasures. One really needs to see the suffering hidden in those sense pleasures AND also see the benefits of niramisa sukha that arises when one starts to slowly give up sense pleasures. Those who have developed even anariya jhanas should have a good idea why that niramisa sukha (or jhanic pleasures) are much better than sense pleasures.
It is only at the Anagami stage that one should seriously think about the Arahanthood, or “extinction”. Only when one gets to this stage that one can beginning to see the benefits of completely getting out of this world of 31 realms.
By the way Siebe, you seem not to read the links that I recommend. When someone has strong ditthis (views), one only SEES what one wants to see, and do not even want to sincerely try to read and understand what others suggest. There is nothing I can do about that.
I do not want anyone to take my word; I only would like one to read what I suggest and see whether it makes sense, for their sake. I will write these replies (when I have time) as long as I believe that they will at least help some people. I know there are a lot of people with this “fear of extinction”. They really should not focus on Nibbana, because it is a waste of time. It is wiser to follow the Path gradually, step-by-step.
It is like, when one starts a thousand-mile journey on foot, one should not think about the enormity of that task, and get discouraged. The task is accomplished by taking one step at a time.
Siebe also said: “I also cannot understand that Lal sees it as nobel goal to extinguish like a flame.”.
These are the words of the Buddha, not mine. Didn’t he say that “My Dhamma is not like any other that the world has seen (pubbe ananussutaesu dhammesu..?”.
One cannot take comfort in one’s theory by incorrectly translating Buddha’s words; that is just micca ditthi, and actually blocking one’s own Path.
But how can one figure out whether I am translating the suttas correctly? That can be done by looking for any inconsistencies within those several hundred posts at the website. I have illustrated this for other people’s wrong translations. I discuss this in the newest post: “Anidassana Viññāṇa – What It Really Means“.
If it is any consolation, the Buddha also stated that there is an actual “ayatana” called Nibbana. It is just that it cannot be expressed in terms of words we have in this world; see, “Nibbāna “Exists”, but Not in This World“.
That “tad ayatana” or the “perfect place” is reached only by completely removing the dasa samyojana that bind us to this world of 31 realms: Three are removed at the Sotapanna stage, two removed at the Anagami stage, and the last five removed at the Arahant stage. That is why it is a step-by-step process.
