Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Siebe said: “i have come to see that to do really right, i have to be beyond the force of all habits..”
This is the point. One has to break away from old habits (they are closely connected to one’s asavas/gati). The key here is to stop those vaci sankhara (fantasizing/enjoying) bad conscious thoughts.
Then, over time, such asava/gati will wear out, and one will not generate such bad thoughts. That is what leads to niramisa sukha.
@y not: “doing right” means doing what is moral (not doing dasa akusala).
If an action, speech, thought involves asobhana cetasika (greed, anger, jealousy, etc) that is “not doing right”. These are akusala kamma.
What is right are actions, speech, thoughts that involve sobhana cetasika (generosity, compassion, giving, etc). These are kusala/punna kamma; see, “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Punna and Pāpa Kamma“.
This is what the Buddha explained to the Kalamas in the Kalama Sutta: “Don’t do things to others that one would not want others to do to oneself”.
Johnny asked: “Does the Avyākata Paticca Samuppāda cycle depict the mano sankhara process of how nature impart kamma vipaka onto us?”
There are three steps involved and I am going to describe them using the post, ”Avyākata Paticca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāna” :- We get sense inputs (seeing, hearing, etc) due to kamma vipaka. These are analyzed by the first part of the citta vithi (see #15) labelled “kamma vipaka”.
- Then, based on out gati, a decision is made by the mind on how to react to that sense input at the vottapana (labelled “V”) citta in the middle of the citta vithi.
- Now, javana citta run based on that decision. Those initial javana citta are therefore mano sankhara. They get started without our conscious thinking, just based on our gati.
Now, a normal person without knowledge of Dhamma will just go along with those same lines of thought. If it is an attractive subject, they get attached to it and think about how to possess/enjoy it, for example. Then one may speak to oneself and also speak out (vaci sankhara), and do bodily actions (via kaya sankhara), to get that enjoyment. If those involve dasa akusala, then one generates new bad kamma. That is why that part of the citta vithi is labelled “new kamma“.
However, within a few seconds of starting that process we will become aware of those “bad vaci and kaya sankhara”, if one is being mindful. Thousands of citta vithi with such bad thoughts may run during that time initially.
Now, when we become aware of those ‘bad thoughts”, we should think about their bad consequences and immediately stop them. THIS IS WHERE WE HAVE CONTROL.
Initially, this is hard. The temptation is to just continue with those enticing thoughts. And when one first starts, one may be done with talking/acting by the time one even realizes it. But one should not be discouraged, and make a determination to “catch it” early next time.
With time, one will be able to “catch such bad thoughts” at the early vaci sankhara stage (before using speech or the physical body via kaya sankhara). So, now one will have “good javana citta” in the “new kamma” stage of the citta vithi (per #15 of that post).
Then, with time, ones’ gati/asavas will change. Then when a new sense input comes, the mind will make the “right decision” at the vottapana (“V”) stage.
That is a summary. I recommend one prints that post and spend some time going through it carefully. It may be easier if one has some knowledge in Abhidhamma. Even otherwise, just try to get the general idea.
Please ask questions and GET THIS RIGHT. This is the key to making progress in meditation (whether in formal meditation or in responding to real life situations).
P.S. I am glad that Siebe started this discussion. Let us make sure to get any remaining questions answered.
P.P.S. I am not saying it is necessary to learn Ahidhamma. It is necessary to learn the meanings of the terms mano, vaci, and kaya sankhara: “Sankhāra – What It Really Means” and “Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra“.
For those who are familiar with Abhidhamma, the post, “Avyākata Paticca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāna“, could provide more deeper knowledge.
We can discuss both aspects here, so that one can come back and review things here.Sybe07 said: “Can we say that due to sankhara we operate in a re-active way? In a certain sense we are at that time not really ourselves. Our behaviour is just habitual, conditioned, like an animal or machine.”
This is a critical point that I have been trying make all this time. See, “Sankhāra – What It Really Means” and “Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra“. Please read the posts that I recommend carefully, and ask questions from there if something is not clear. It is important to understand what is meant by each of the Pali words mano, vaci, and kaya sankhara.
The way we first react (automatically) to situations is habitual and are based on our gati/asavas. The thoughts that are habitually and automatically generated are mano sankhara. We don’t have control over them DIRECTLY.
However, we do have control over vaci and kaya sankhara that are associated with our conscious thoughts (talking to oneself), speech, and bodily actions.
When we start acting mindfully (Anapana and Satipatthana), and catch any “wrong/immoral thoughts that arise”, and willfully control our vaci and kaya sankhara, our gati/asavas will change for the better. That in the long-temr will lead us to respond automatically the right way, i.e., mano snakhara will change accordingly. That is how we make progress on the Path.
y not said: “What of the possibility of the memory of them (past lives) being triggered by the experience of ‘deja’ vu’ when visiting certain places or meeting certain people?”
Yes. This is fairly common. Some people can go to a far away, previously not-visited, city and just walk around as if they had lived their lives there. Sometimes we meet people and make bonds with them (or in some cases dislike them) instantaneously, as if we had known them all our lives. This has happened to me several times.
The mind can normally recall only within a given lifetime (and even that is spotty or not consistent). In some special cases, children can recall their past life, if that life was in the current human bhava. Even then, as the child grows, the mind gets “cluttered and covered” by the increasing load of external sense inputs (i.e., the child gets pulled into various attractions and angry situations). So, normally, by the age of 8-10 years, the child would forget all about that past life.
However, when one cultivates jhanas, pancanivarana (that cover the mind) get worn out or at least suppressed, and some people who cultivate jhanas are able to recall past lives. Some can extend that to many past lives, and even births in other realms.
In any case, even though we cannot normally recall past lives, our gati and asavas have been molded by those past lives. But it is not like we have had the current gati/asavas extending too far back. During some births, one’s gati can change drastically, and one’s environment (family/friends) play a key role. This is why we all have been in all apayas, as well as in most of the higher realms too.
1 user thanked author for this post.
Just to make sure, sankata includes BOTH living and inter things. Both have mind as the precursor, i.e., it is those sankhara that give rise to sankata.
Remember that paticca samuppada cycles start with “avijja pacca sankhara, sankhara paccaya vinnana“, and end up in “dukkha domanassa upasaya sambhavanti, i.e., to all suffering. It also lead to the arising of THINGS that help induce suffering.
I have not yet discussed paticca samuppada cycles that discuss the creation of inert things via sankhara. That is not necessary to attain Nibbana.
We need to see how our conscious thoughts (vaci sankhara and kaya sankhara) lead to births in various realms, and first suppress/remove those sankhara that lead to births in the apayas.
Just published a new post on two key Dhammapada verses regarding this topic:
“Manōpubbangamā dhammā..“.I guess that is possible.
However, kama raga and patigha go together, just like dosa (dvesha) is the second manifestation of lobha (in simple terms, one gets angry because he/she is not getting what is desired).
So, it is more likely that kama raga and patigha are removed at the same time.
One could be doing things for the family/friends because of two possible reasons:
– Out of attachment.
– because one considers that is one’s responsibility.
It could also be a combination of the two.I don’t think it serves any purpose to discuss this particular aspect.
Kalayanamitta1 said: “When somebody says Sankara and Sabba Sankara. Is there are a difference between the two. Is there any Sanakara that we can reference externally that is outside of 5 aggregates.”
Welcome to the forum, Kalayanamitta1!
Sankhara is very broad. One can get an idea of that by looking at “pada nirukti”: “san” + “kara”.
– As we know “san” is anything that is do with this world of 31 realms. When we eat, walk, talk, etc all those are sankhara.
– “Sabba sankhara” means ALL sankhara, the ones in this broad category.Those that involve dasa akusala OR dasa kusala (i.e., involve moral/immoral values) have a special prefix of “abhi”; they are abhisankhara.
– One should first see the anicca nature (i.e., not suitable/ dangerous) of those worst abhisankhara that could lead to rebirth in the apayas; the Sotapanna Anugami/Sotapanna stages).
– Then, one should see the anicca nature of those abhisankhara (done with craving for sense pleasures) that could lead to rebirth in the human realm (Sakadagami stage), and any realm in kama loka (at Anagami stage).
– In the above cases, we discard only apunnabhisankhara (apunna abhi sankhara or immoral), AND cultivate punnabhisankhara (punna abhi sankhara or moral). This is important to remember.
– When one becomes an Arahant, one would have seen the anicca nature of ALL sankhara. This is what is stated as “sabba sankharesu anicca sanna” in the Sabbasava sutta. So, we all don’t need to worry about the anicca nature of sabba sankhara yet!
– At the Arahant stage, one will still do punna kriya to help others, and will still engage in sankhara (to live), but has comprehended the anicca nature of all sankhara.Make sure to know the real meaning of sankhara: “Sankhāra – What It Really Means“.
Donna is exactly right. This can be said in many different ways, and another is paticca samuppada: pati icca leading to sama uppada; see the “Paticca Samuppada” section.
- As long as one engages in apayagami activities, that means one has upadana for them. Then a birth in the apayas becomes possible.
- As long as one engages in sensual activities, that means one has upadana for them. Then a birth in the kama loka becomes possible.
- As long as one enjoys and craves jhanic pleasures, that means one has upadana for them. Then a birth in the brahma loka becomes possible.
When one realizes that none of those lead to a PERMANENT happiness, one loses upadana for them one by one, starting with the apayagami activities. At that stage, one may still enjoy sense pleasures, and thus may not have lost upadana for them. It is a step-by-step process.
Again, I want to emphasize that just avoiding the physical activity (in this case eating cookies) not enough. With time, one needs to suppress indulging in conscious thoughts about those cookies (vaci sankhara) too. That is the harder step.
Now, it is also IMPORTANT to realize that eating a cookie or two once in a while is not a problem. We cannot avoid eating tasty things all the time and that is not needed. It is a balance and one will KNOW the difference between just eating a few cookies to quench hunger and craving for cookies. It is the CRAVING that needs to be gradually reduced. One WILL KNOW whether one has cravings or not. So, an effort needs to be made to gradually reduce that craving.
This is why real “sila” is not a mere a set of rules. One’s mind knows when one craves. This is such an important point that let me give another example.
– Suppose one abstains from the “five precepts”: not even killing an ant, no stealing, no sexual misconduct outside marriage, no lying, and no getting drunk/drugs, etc. So, it may appear that person is a “moral person”. But he/she may not have lost upadana for such activities.
– IF that person spends hours at a time thinking angry thoughts about someone who said a bad thing, or fantasize about having a sexual encounter with another person, etc, he/she is still breaking the five precepts.Now, these vaci sankhara cannot be stopped quickly. One needs to work on it. It may take time. That is how one cultivates Anapana/Satipatthana. A good approach is to think about the drawbacks/dangers in continuing such conscious thoughts.
It is the javana power of thoughts that determine how strong a kamma is. Even without using the physical body one can do strong kamma with the mind via vaci sankhara: “cetana ham bhikkhave kammam vadami”, or “bhikkhus, I say kamma is one’s intention”. I have explained that intention is complex and may involve many different types of mental factors (cetasika); see, “What is Intention in Kamma?“.
Johnny said: “Indulging in vanilla cookies is no different from smoking weeds.”
Yes and no. If done with craving, they both bind one to the kama loka. But smoking weed can be bad for the brain, much more than cookies are bad for general health. Smoking weed or taking hard drugs can distort one’s mind and thus make one do apayagami actions too. So, not all sense pleasures are the same.Embodied said: “..but for now i’m more concerned with the fears related to what can happen during our actual bhava”.
Any stress/fear that is in the mind is has its origins in dasa akusala. This may not be obvious. This is called “tapa” or “heat in the mind”. One really realizes the relief only AFTER one gets rid of it. This is the basis of Satipatthana; see, ” Satipatthana Sutta – Structure“.
More details in: “Sutta Interpretations“, and the first several sections of “Living Dhamma“.
It is relatively easy to abstain from killing, lying, etc. There are three harder aspects that people seem not to pay attention to:
1. Day dreaming or fantasizing about sense pleasures (especially sexual nature). These seem to be harmless, but can lead to so much “heating of the mind”; see, “Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra“.
2. Getting rid of the 10 types of micca ditthi.
3. Controlling excess greed and anger.When such thoughts creep into the mind, one should immediately get rid of them. That is the basis of Anapana and Satipatthana.
Embodied said: “I created a “mantra” (kind of) that i keep repeating : whatever “I” am, this body is but a transient expression of such “I”.”
Chanting by itself will not work. That can keep the mind off of such “bad vaci sankhara” only during that chanting. One needs to keep such vaci sankhara from creeping in to the mind at all times, whenever possible. Initially hard, but will get easier with time.
Embodied asked: “Can a good, well-sinked understanding of Tilakhanna help to overcome fear..?”
Fear is two kinds:
1. Fear of losing things in this life, fear of getting sick, losing loved ones, of ghosts, of bad dreams, etc etc. What we can call “mundane fears”.
2. But one should fear most is the possible birth in the apayas. Such a suffering will not be limited to a mere 100 years.To give a brief answer:
1. Fear of mundane things can be reduced/eliminated by the mundane eitghtfold path.
2. Fear of possible rebirth in the apayas may not be truly comprehensible until that mundane path is cultivated and most of the “mundane fears are understood to be relatively insignificant” compared to the more serious one. Then one starts on eliminating those more significant fears.In order to work on the more serious fears, one needs to have a relatively calm mindset that is attained via the mundane path. A good indication is when one does not see terrible dreams anymore, for example, and have a general sense of calmness.
As I mentioned just today under another topic (“Is circumambulation a mere rite or ritual?“), “sila, samadhi, panna” or the mundane path leads to the second more important stage of “panna, sila, samadhi”, as discussed in the post, “Sīla, Samādhi, Pannā to Pannā, sīla, Samādhi“.
– As, discussed there, “sila” will have a deeper meaning in the second stage; that is an unbreakable “sila” (called the “Ariyakanta sila”) that comes with the comprehension of Tilakkhana.All fears are eliminated only at the Arahant stage. It is only an Arahant that is not afraid of even death. In fact, an Arahant is said to be looking forward to the day when all sufferings experienced with this human body ends, and to enter the permanent Nibbana.
Firewns said: “Is it really a kusala kamma to do so, or merely a form of silabbata-paramaso?”
Contemplating on recent discussions, I realized that I need to make an important clarification regarding a possible misconception about silabbata paramasa, and also punna kamma.
Silabbata paramasa DOES NOT mean sila is bad. It just means one cannot attain Nibbana JUST via sila, i.e., just by living a moral life.
However, sila is an important and critical part of setting up the background to attain Nibbana, and doing meritorious deeds (punna kamma) is an essential part of sila. One CANNOT skip that step. And when one attains Arahanthood or even the Buddhahood, one does not stop doing punna kamma. It should become a habit to engage in punna kamma. It makes one’s heart joyful.
Just like one cannot do calculus without first understanding simple mathematics, one cannot get rid of silabbata paramasa by not appreciating the value of sila; see, “Sīla, Samādhi, Pannā to Pannā, sīla, Samādhi“, and “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Punna and Pāpa Kamma“.
@Inflib (Donna): That is a wonderful message that you sent to you daughters.
I would encourage everyone to read that post (in a thread above) by Donna today, May 1, 2018.
A young mind can be molded for good or bad. It is CRITICALLY important to make sure that one’s children are brought up with high morals.
Another is not to let them associate with “bad friends”. Family and friends play a key role in a young person’s future.
Actually, that holds true for adults too. It is important to dissociate from those who have immoral values (even if one can have a “good time” with them partying), if they insist on keeping the old ways. Actually, in some cases, they may change for the better by associating with you; see, “The Law of Attraction, Habits, Character (Gathi), and Cravings (Asavas)“.
