Avyākata Paticca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāna

  • This topic has 12 replies, 5 voices, and was last updated 6 months ago by Lal.
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    • #15532
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Hello,

      While reading through the post Avyākata Paticca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāna, I started wondering how the mind could actually forget past events from this life and previous. As all the mind does is compare the “picture taken” to what it has stored and create vinnana.

      Lal has mentioned how the mind is “covered” which keeps us from seeing past lives, but does that mean the that mind is so fixated on gati and asavas that it can’t even stop for a moment to see past life results? Is it so automated to see only the cravings? Thus, purifying it would it keeping from running on high gear in asavas/gati?

      With metta!

    • #15533
      Lal
      Keymaster

      The mind can normally recall only within a given lifetime (and even that is spotty or not consistent). In some special cases, children can recall their past life, if that life was in the current human bhava. Even then, as the child grows, the mind gets “cluttered and covered” by the increasing load of external sense inputs (i.e., the child gets pulled into various attractions and angry situations). So, normally, by the age of 8-10 years, the child would forget all about that past life.

      However, when one cultivates jhanas, pancanivarana (that cover the mind) get worn out or at least suppressed, and some people who cultivate jhanas are able to recall past lives. Some can extend that to many past lives, and even births in other realms.

      In any case, even though we cannot normally recall past lives, our gati and asavas have been molded by those past lives. But it is not like we have had the current gati/asavas extending too far back. During some births, one’s gati can change drastically, and one’s environment (family/friends) play a key role. This is why we all have been in all apayas, as well as in most of the higher realms too.

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    • #15534
      y not
      Participant

      Lal:

      Even I was waiting for a reply. Much of it is as I was expecting.

      “…. and some people who cultivate jhanas are able to recall past lives. Some can extend that to many past lives, and even births in other realms”.

      What of the possibility of the memory of them (past lives) being triggered by the experience of ‘deja’ vu’ when visiting certain places or meeting certain people? (I remember reading a post where this is mentioned.) I have experienced this, and not only in childhood. Would it be that we had actually been there or known those people before, or rather, or more likely, that the feeling arises due to the similiarity of what we see now to what we had experienced in a previous life? – like when we meet somebody who reminds us of somebody else because of their similar appearance?

      On some occasions I am taken by the moment, like I ‘stop in my tracks’ with the feeling: yes, I have said this before, now he/she will say this; and he/she will say exactly those words. It feels that the moment is being RE-lived.

      thank you

      y not

    • #15536
      Lal
      Keymaster

      y not said: “What of the possibility of the memory of them (past lives) being triggered by the experience of ‘deja’ vu’ when visiting certain places or meeting certain people?”

      Yes. This is fairly common. Some people can go to a far away, previously not-visited, city and just walk around as if they had lived their lives there. Sometimes we meet people and make bonds with them (or in some cases dislike them) instantaneously, as if we had known them all our lives. This has happened to me several times.

    • #29751
      usitha
      Participant

      Hello.
      Certain Bhavas we are born into,
      Are Kammaicaly neutral,
      Can we put the act of blinking itself into Avyākata PS?
      If so certain people have certain gatis, which other people don’t.
      For example, I shake my leg sometimes,
      This itself is Jati,
      I believe it is also included in Avyākata PS? Am i wrong?
      The reason I ask is I’ve seen a certain Venerable monk who claims and i also believe is an Arahant shake their leg at times.
      This act itself looks harmless, and when i have mindfulness of it, im like should i really catch it and stop it?
      Is that forcing and unnecessary effort?
      I realize it has to be from a peleema, otherwise that would never happen.
      But i also think its a neutral action.

    • #29752
      Lal
      Keymaster

      There are two types of gati.
      – One is connected to defilements. For example, the tendency to steal could become a gati. I have heard about a King who enjoyed stealing things from shops. He would visit shops as a “commoner” and steal things. The ministers were aware of that and, without the King knowing about it, followed him on such visits. They would pay off the shop owner without the King knowing about it. They did not want the King to be caught and get into trouble.
      – The other type of gati is what you are describing. It is harmless and would have no kammic consequences. Such things are just innocent habits, and could even come from previous lives. For example, there is this story in the Tipitaka about a very young Arahant. He had the tendency to jump over things, even though it would be considered “unbecoming” for an Arahant. It turned out that he was born a monkey not too far back in his previous lives.

    • #29771
      usitha
      Participant

      Thankyou Lal.
      This seems like a very simple obvious point. But I find this extremely important. On a previous visit to certain forest monasteries, they made it seem like the slightest involuntary action was a fault and to be corrected immediately.
      I think there’s a handful of people, who have mixed up this kind of mindfulness believing it to be samma satti.

    • #29775
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Usitha wrote: “On a previous visit to certain forest monasteries, they made it seem like the slightest involuntary action was a fault and to be corrected immediately.”
      – Yes. It is sometimes discouraging to see how people have distorted Buddha Dhamma.

      “I think there’s a handful of people, who have mixed up this kind of mindfulness believing it to be samma sati.”

      – Yes. Samma Sati is having the right mindset (anicca, dukkha, anatta nature).
      – As we know, Sammā comes from “san” + “mā” or “getting rid of defilements that may arise in the mind. “What is “San”? Meaning of Sansāra (or Saṃsāra)

    • #46963
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāṇa

      #5. All PS processes can be broadly divided into three categories:

      • What we will discuss in this post is how past kamma vipāka bring in sense inputs via avyākata (avyākruta) PS process, and also automatically generate manō saṅkhāra.
      • Then akusala-mūla PS processes may contribute to generating new kamma that extends the rebirth process. These also start within seconds, but as mentioned above, we can catch and stop them if we are mindful (Satipaṭṭhāna/Ānapāna).
      • The kusala-mūla PS process describes how one can accumulate new “good kamma” that will eventually help us attain Nibbāna by following the Noble Path. If the kamma vipāka generated such a “good PS” process, we should cultivate those. That is also part of Satipaṭṭhāna/Ānapāna.

      But in #37657

      Tobias asked: “Do you say that new kamma bhava is accumulated while doing kusala kamma?”

      No. The Kusala-mula PS does not accumulate kamma bhava.
      – But it ELEVATES one to higher bhava, by eliminating the ability to be “hooked into” lower bhava, as you wrote in the later (last) comment.

      Also, in #37646 Tobias said:

      We should remind ourselves that kusala kamma is neither dark nor bright with neither-dark-nor-bright results, it is kamma that leads to the destruction of defilements. Thus kusala kamma will not add to kamma bhava.

      So, I think #5 should be revised.

    • #46964
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāṇa

      12. Without going into this complex process, only the mindset of the person is changed based on the contact (phassa) of the ārammana with the gati of the individual.

      • We note here that there are no “nāmarūpa” involved here, but just “nāma“. This is a deeper point, but the generation of “nāmarūpa” involves javana citta which actually performs kamma. In this vipāka cycle, no kamma is done by the mind; the mind just matches the “picture” that it received against one’s gati, and automatically recognizes if it is an object that one likes/dislikes.

      In #37674

      Lal said:

      1. It(Paṭiccasamuppāda vibhaṅga) describes in detail the 16 steps for an akusala mula PS. The description starts in section 2. Abhidhammabhājanīya.
      – It is not easy to follow those 16 cycles. There are 4 cycles each for 2.1. Paccayacatukka, 2.2. Hetucatukka, 2.3. Sampayuttacatukka, 2.4. Aññamaññacatukka.
      – That means for four types of paccaya: paccaya, hetu, sampayutta, Aññamañña.

      2. Then there are four cycles (catukka) within each of those. That is how it becomes 16 cycles!
      – That analysis takes up most of the rest of the section.
      – So, it provides that VERY DETAILED analysis ONLY for the akusala-mula PS.

      3. The point is that for Kusala-mula PS, it describes only the first of the 16 cycles!
      – That is why it has only “nama”: “..viññāṇa paccayā nāmaṁ, nāma paccayā chaṭṭhāyatanaṁ.”
      – The other steps ending with:..viññāṇa paccayā nāmarūpaṁ, nāmarūpa paccayā saḷāyatanaṁ” are NOT explained again, because they proceed similarly to the case of Akusala-mula PS.

      I think it is probably possible that the “viññāṇa paccayā nāmaṃ, nāma paccayā chaṭṭhāyatanaṃ” step of avyākata PS is the same as Kusala mula PS. If it is, the expression of vibhanga “viññāṇa paccayā nāmaṃ” does not mean that there is no nāmarūpa in avyākata PS.

      Nāmarupa in Vipāka Viññāṇa

      #1 Thus, this type of “nāmarupa” is NOT associated with avijjā and is NOT the same “nāmarupa” that appears in “viññāṇa paccayā nāmarupa” in Paṭicca Samuppāda. We will discuss that type of nāmarupa in the next post.

      Finally, considering the above explanation in the recently written post, we can draw the following conclusions. The “vinnana paccaya namarupa” step can be analyzed in many ways. In particular, the namarupa of akusala/kusala PS and avyakata PS are very different and should be distinguished. But nevertheless, ALL PS can have namarupa.

    • #46965
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Dosakkhayo’s question from his first post: “So, I think #5 should be revised.”

      • Why? 
      • If it is not clear, the following are key points: (i) Only akusala-mula PS processes generate kammic energy.  (ii) Kusala-mula PS processes do not create new kammic energies. They only help remove defilements (i.e., wrong views, perceptions) AND cultivate panna (wisdom or knowledge about how PS processes operate.)

      I don’t see a question in the second post. You need to clarify what you are trying to say.

       

      P.S. I just removed the post on “Kusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda” from the “Paticca Samuppada” section. It was an old post and needs to be rewritten.

    • #46975
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      I apologize for my mistake. I think I have a bad habit of omitting too much in communication.

      The reason why I think #5 should be revised is that the sentence “The kusala-mūla PS process describes how one can accumulate new “good kamma” that will eventually help us attain Nibbāna by following the Noble Path.” sounds like new kamma bhava are generated through kusala mula PS.

      Especially, if one reads it in Korean translation, the meaning becomes very unclear. So I think it needs to be revised. 

      (i) Only akusala-mula PS processes generate kammic energy.

      (ii) Kusala-mula PS processes do not create new kammic energies. They only help remove defilements (i.e., wrong views, perceptions) AND cultivate panna (wisdom or knowledge about how PS processes operate.)

      They make the point clear. I appreciate your service. I’m also worried that what I am doing is just nitpicking and has no useful purpose. 

      Rereading the second post, I found I wrote it in a very closed manner. I was trying to say that Avyakata PS could also have a namarupa.

    • #46980
      Lal
      Keymaster

      No need to apologize. It was my mistake. I failed to catch it. 

      I thought about this issue of Kusala-mula PS processes. I think the Sutta Pitaka does not discuss such a concept (as I mentioned in my earlier comment) because there is no need. I think it is better to remove the post on “Kusala-Mula Paticca Samuppada” permanently.

      • Dosakkhayo’s final comment above: “I was trying to say that Avyakata PS could also have a namarupa.”
      • Namarupa formation requires javana citta with raga, dosa, or moha. That happens in javana citta after the votthapana stage in the figure in my comment in the discussion on “Kiriya Citta.”
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