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Siebe said: “Thanks Lal. Unfortunately I do not know that sutta. Do you, or somebody else, have a reference?”
When I come across it, I will post it here. Hoepfully, someone else will post it sooner.
Siebe said: “Do you agree the breaktrough is a life-changing event or is it not that dramatic?”.
Of course, one’s life is drastically changed at the phala moment. But it is not like one feels that like a thunder striking.
One realizes that a drastic change had happened over days, weeks. When one thinks back and compare past events to one’s current state of the mind (cooling down), one can see a drastic change. And over time, based on how one responds to certain situations, one can see that too. How I think about what the Sotapanna stage means, is probably evident from my writings. It cannot be put into a single paragraph. But the main thing was the realization that it is unfruitful to do even the slightest “immoral thing” no matter how much one can get back materially (money, fame, etc) by doing it. Another thing is that even if you do something wrong (or not quite optimally), you have a nagging feeling that you should have responded differently for the rest of the day.
Akavan said: “There is no explanation about a Chetho Vimuttho person”.
The Buddha attained the Buddhahood via akuppa cetovimutti. How he went up the “Ariya jhana ladder” on the night of attaining the Buddhahood is described in detail in the “Tapussa Sutta (AN 9.41)”. The sutta ends with the Buddha declaring:”..Ñāṇañca pana me dassanaṃ udapādi: ‘akuppā me cetovimutti, ayamantimā jāti, natthi dāni punabbhavo’”ti.”
As pointed out in the “Maha Nidana Sutta (Digha Nikāya 15)”, when one attains the akuppa cetovimutti, one automatically becomes an ubhatovimutti.
Furthermore, it appears that a Pannavimutti Arahant could become an Ubhatovimutti by cultivating jhana.
As we have emphasized before, all types of Arahants, and even the Buddha, gets to the same Nibbana. They all attain Parinibbana (full release) upon the death of the physical body.
Siebe said: “It seems like realising Sotapanna stage in the sutta’s is expressed in different ways..”.
Yes. It can be expressed in many different ways.
Not only that, but different people attain the Sotapanna stage by “seeing” it in their own ways.There is a sutta where a bhikkhu was perplexed when hearing different Sotapannas explaining what they understood it to be. The Buddha gave an example of different people describing a certain tree based on what the most significant thing they saw about the tree: how the leaves, fruits, or trunk look like.
Siebe said: “This breaktrough is very difficult to realise. It is compared to splitting a hair in 7 pieces by an arrow (SN56.45)!
Does this still refer to Sotapanna or maybe to arhant stage?”.
That sutta is about the Arahant stage, FULLY comprehending (“yathābhūtaṃ paṭivijjhanti..”) the Four Noble Truths.
Siebe said: “I have understood that bhava can (also) refer to a specific state of mind in this live (point 2 in your post)…It is not really clear to me what is the difference between those two.”
Here is #2 on the post:
“2. Basically, bhava means “the potential for existence” in EITHER one of the 31 realms of possible existence (we can see just the human and animal realms) OR as some specific state of mind within the current life.
– In the first category, there is human bhava, animal bhava, Tusita deva bhava, peta bhava, abhassara brahma bhava, etc.: existence in one of the 31 possible realms. As we will see below, many such “potential bhava” exists for each living being, and at the end of the current bhava, a new one will grasped based on the relative energies for various bhava (kamma beeja) that one has cultivated in one’s past.
– Even during this lifetime, we “live under different existences” based on significant life events. This is the second category. For example, a normally “good person” may become violent for a short time upon seeing his wife in bed with another man, or one will live in a “state of sorrow” for many days upon the death of a loved one.”
In the first category, “the state of the mind” is that state acquired at the moment of grasping the current human bhava, as explained in the post. For example, like remembering previously done good deed.
First kind lasts through the lifetime, and the second kind is temporary, short term, AND changes from event to event. Of course, the second kind overrides the first kind while it is in effect, but the first kind ALWAYS comes back.
Can you state clearly why you don’t see the difference between those two categories?
Johnny_Lim said:”Is the Bhavanga maintained by our kammic energy, specifically by the Jīvitindriya cetasika?”.
That is a good question. I had not thought about it. But here are some initial thoughts.
Bhavanga is a “state of mind”. When fully in bhavanga, there no flowing citta vithi. However, bhavanga citta can fill in parts of a citta vithi. So, all universal cetasika will be in any bhavanga citta. However, I have not seen any information about the involvement of cetasika in a fully bhavanga state. May be someone else has more information on this.
Yes. While depressing and saddening, your Grandma’s experience could be related to what you suggested. I have heard and read similar accounts from many others.
There are several accounts in the Tipitaka too. Cunda Sukara, who killed pigs for living, screamed like a dying pig for several days at the end before dying. The Buddha said that it was because he was seeing images of an apaya where he was going to be born.
Siebe said: “MN44 §7 is about how sakkaya ditthi is establised and §8 how it is not established. Maybe you have translated §8?”
Yes. I had inadvertently looked at the wrong paragraph. So, both Bhikkhu Bodhi’s and Sutta Central translations DO NOT have those inherently incorrect translations.
However, as I pointed out the key point is the translation of “samanupassati”, as just “seeing”.
Siebe said: “So, indeed, i think this sutta’s want to express there is indeed a huge difference between ending sakkaya ditthi and really experience in a detached manner.
This makes sense for me.”
I am glad to hear that. This is a subtle point, yet it makes a huge difference in grasping the difference between the Sotapanna stage (removing Sakkaya Ditthi) and the Arahant stage (removing asmi mana, the “perception of “me”).
I agree with SengKiat‘s comments.
But there is a cetovimutti attained by anariyas like Alara Kalama at the time of the Buddha. That is not Nibbana.
When a Noble Person attains Nibbana via jhanas, he/she attains akuppa cetovimutti (akuppa means “unshakable”); see “Ascendance to Nibbāna via Jhāna (Dhyāna)“.
Either way (pannavimutti or akuppa cetovimutti) the end result is Nibbana.
The verse from the “Culavedalla Sutta (MN 44)“:
“Kathaṃ panāyye, sakkāyadiṭṭhi na hotī”ti?
“Idhāvuso visākha, sutavā ariyasāvako, ariyānaṃ dassāvī ariyadhammassa kovido ariyadhamme suvinīto, sappurisānaṃ dassāvī sap¬purisa¬dhammassa kovido sap¬purisa¬dhamme suvinīto, na rūpaṃ attato samanupassati, na rūpavantaṃ vā attānaṃ, na attani vā rūpaṃ, na rūpasmiṃ vā attānaṃ. Na vedanaṃ … pe … na saññaṃ … na saṅkhāre … pe … na viññāṇaṃ attato samanupassati, na viññāṇavantaṃ vā attānaṃ, na attani vā viññāṇaṃ, na viññāṇasmiṃ vā attānaṃ. Evaṃ kho, āvuso visākha, sakkāyadiṭṭhi na hotī”ti.Bhikkhu Bodhi translation (per Siebe): “Lady, how does personality view come to be?”
“Here, friend Visakha, an untaught ordinary person, who has no regard for noble ones and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, who has no regard for true men and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, regards material form as
self, or self as possessed of material form, or material form as in
self, or self as in material form. He regards feeling as self, or self
as possessed of feeling, or feeling as in self, or self as in feeling.
He regards perception as self, or self as possessed of perception,
or perception as in self, or self as in perception. He regards formations
as self, or self as possessed of formations, or formations
as in self, or self as in formations. He regards consciousness as
self, or self as possessed of consciousness, or consciousness as in self or self as in consciousness”.Sutta Central translation: “But what, Noble Lady, is embodiment view?”
“Here, friend Visākha, an unlearned worldling, one who doesn’t meet the Noble Ones, who is unskilled in the Noble Dhamma, untrained in the Noble Dhamma, one who doesn’t meet Good People, who is unskilled in the Good People’s Dhamma, untrained in the Good People’s Dhamma, views bodily form as self, or self as endowed with bodily form, or bodily form as in self, or self as in bodily form.”My translation: “Lady, how is Sakkaya ditthi NOT established?”
Here, friend Visaka, a knowledgeable disciple (sutava ariyasavako), who has “seen” Ariya Dhamma and is well-informed in Dhamma and is with good conduct ( ariyānaṃ dassāvī ariyadhammassa kovido ariyadhamme suvinīto), same for moral qualities (sappurisānaṃ dassāvī sap¬purisa¬dhammassa kovido sap¬purisa¬dhamme suvinīto), WILL NOT SEE rupa as mine (na rūpaṃ attato samanupassati), etcI am not sure how both those translations missed the “na” or NOT. The other key word is samanupassati (sees according to), related to passati (sees).
Even more perplexing, how did they translate “sutava ariyasavako” as “unlearned worldling”?? No drastic harm was done since “na” was missed in all the places.
But the point of importance to the current discussion is the difference between “seeing” and “verifying and experiencing”. As I have discussed at length, “seeing” and “verifying it be true by experience” are two different things. Please re-read my post on January 18, 2018 at 7:48 am above: “But “seeing” and actually experiencing that to be true are two different things (which may not be apparent to most people, but it is a critical point in Buddha Dhamma)..”
That is the difference between the Sotapanna stage and the Arahant stage; that is a HUGE difference!
In response to my post on January 18, 2018 at 7:48 am above, you said you agreed. And then you just go back to bringing the same issue again in a different way (by saying anicca is impermanence?)!
I don’t think there is anything else I can do, unless you can point out a specific contradiction in my explanation.
Siebe said: “I learned from MN44 that viewing the body as one’s self is a sakkaya ditthi. Why is this kind of viewing not removed at sotapanna stage?”
Which verse in MN 44 says that? Please be to the point.
C. Saket said: “In both Asanna brahma and an Arahant in Nirodha samapatti, there is no chitta flowing, means no vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana.
But I think both the cases are different…” and so on.
All that is true. Did I say anything otherwise? You just explained it in more detail, for example, as to how to get a birth in the asanna realm.
Here is a summary of various entities mentioned by C. Saket in the above question:
No citta vithi run in nirodha samapatti. Life in the body is maintained with kammic energy. No vedana, sanna, etc. Maximum time in nirodha samapatti is 7 days.
Parinibbana state is just like nirodha samapatti. The only difference is that there is no “coming back”.
Samapatti basically mean manodvara citta vithi will flow continuously. There is no falling to bhavanga or to take an external object with a pancadvara citta vithi. Thus one cannot see, hear, etc. Normally, samapatti will eventually break on its own or (when one gets good at it) one can pre-set the time to be in samapatti (in one’s mind).
Arahant phala samapatti is where an Arahant experiences the pabhassara citta, a pure citta with just the universal cetasika. Nibbana is the object made contact with phassa cetasika and vedana are sanna are based on that (we have no idea about that). There, one does not hear, see, anything either, just like in jhana samapatti.
In jhana samapatti, jhanic citta flow continuously at the monodvara, and there is no opportunity for pancadvara citta vithi to arise. That is why one does not hear, see, etc in jhana samapatti. A different mechanism.
In jhanas (not jhana samapatti), jhanic (manodvara) citta vithi are intermingled with pancadvara citta vithi. Thus one can hear, see, etc in jhanas.
So, I think answers to questions (1)-(4) are given above.
(5). Gandhabba is not to be taken as an entity that “exists”. As with everything, the Buddha rejected “something exists” AND “something does not exist”. Something is in existence at a given moment due to a cause. If the cause is not there, the “thing” or the “entity” is not there. So, during nirodha samapatti, the causes for a gandhabba to exist are not there. So, we cannot talk about a gandhabba during nirodha samapatti, during which time the life is maintained by kammic energy.
Another somewhat similar case applies to a being in the asanna realm. There is no gandhabba there, no citta. Just a fine body is maintained by the kammic energy. When that kammic energy expires, citta start flowing and a new bhava will be grasped.
Also, it is important to remember what the Buddha said: “there is no movement of the vinnanakkhandha without the other four khandhas”. We have discussed the sutta references in another discussion or a post; if someone remembers, please give the reference to the post or the disussion. So, there can be rupakkhandha without the other four, like in norodha samaptti or in the asanna realm.
(6). One has not removed avijja when in the asanna plane, and thus will first come back to the human realm and is likely even to go to apayas, unless attaining Sotapanna stage while in the human realm.
One gets to nirodha samapatti by taking Nibbana as the object. Thus one had removed avijja completely.(7). The only similarity is that one would not see, hear, etc while in either Ariya or anariya jhana samapatti. The differences are due to none of anusaya being removed in anariya jhanas. For example, kama raga anusaya is removed at the first Ariya jhana, and avijja anusaya is removed at the fourth Ariya jhana.
Siebe said: “All three kinds of contemplations are meant, do you agree Lal??”.
Yes. Most people get the breakthrough with anicca, some with dukkha, and fewer with anatta, as you mentioned (based on their gati).
But the key point is that when one grasps one of those, one grasps all three withing a short time. They are intrinsically related to each other.
And then it will never be lost, even in future lives. Just like a child who learned how to add will never lose that capability, the Three Characteristics of nature (Tilakkhana), once grasped by the mind, will never be lost.
Then one’s thinking process will be AUTOMATICALLY driven by that perception (sanna) about the world of 31 realms. That is what is called “Samma Sankappa” (how “right” mano sankhara automatically arise).
Then one will start generating vaci sankhara and kaya sankhara BASED ON such automatic thoughts. But that will happen in stages. Only “apayagami thoughts, speech and actions” will be stopped automatically for a Sotapanna. He/she will still need to control “kama sanklapana” with own effort, if to be released from the kama loka, etc.
Therefore, it will be optimized only at the Arahant stage.
Siebe said: “Why is mind, or why are we, not the experienced body, feelings, perceptions, mental formations and consciousnesses?”
This is the key to simplify the subtle points involved in this discussion. That is indeed what one feels until the Arahant stage; until then there is always one or more khandhas that “feels like mine”).
Most people (including most scientists) today believe that one’s body is one’s “self”, i.e., rupakkhandha to be “self”. That is the hardest one to get rid of first and is removed only at the Anagami stage, NOT at the Sotapanna stage.
When one “sees” (with wisdom) the anicca nature, one starts comprehending that it is not fruitful to take any of the five khandhas as “mine”. That “vision” or “understanding” starts at the Sotapanna Anugami stage and is permanently established in one’s mind at the Sotapanna phala moment. This is called “dasasanena pahatabba” in the “Sabbasava Sutta (MN 2)“. That is the beginning of the Noble Path.
But “seeing” and actually experiencing that to be true are two different things (which may not be apparent to most people, but it is a critical point in Buddha Dhamma). If one truly “knows” that one’s khandhas are not one’s own, then one would not desire any sense pleasures that are associated with the rupakkhandha. A Sotapanna has not experienced the lifting of the burden associated with the cravings for sense pleasures. That is removed via two stages (Sakadagami, Anagami) by contemplation AND by experiencing the “niramisa sukha” by actually removing such cravings gradually (“bhavanaya pahatabba” in the Sabbasava Sutta).
Since sense pleasures in the kama loka are associated mainly with the solid body (rupakkhandha), by the time one gets to the Anagami stage, one does not take one’s body to be “one’s own”. He/she has given up that notion and that is why an Anagami will never again be born with a solid body suitable to experience sense pleasures (I,e., will never be born again in kama loka).
But an Anagami still enjoys the “pure mental pleasures”, especially learning Dhamma and possibly jhanic pleasures. So, it is best to not even worry about removing the cravings for “mental pleasures” until one gets to the Anagami stage. When those are also removed, then there is nothing left to be taken as “me” (asmi mana). That is why asmi mana and any left-over avijja are removed only at the Arahant stage.
“Khemaka Sutta (SN 22.89)” indeed shows this difference between Sakkaya Ditthi and Asmi Mana, and Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translation provided by Siebe above is clear on that.
It is not easy to understand the difference between “dassana” or “vision” and actually experiencing the results by “living it” (bhavana), which is what is meant by “bavanaya pahatabba”).
Bhavana is not merely contemplation: “bhavanaya bahuleekataya” means practicing it and “living it” all the time, as much as possible. One lives it by doing Anapana or Satipatthana all the time (i.e., by being mindful and constantly “putting out fires in the mind”; see “Satipatthāna Sutta – Structure“).
Sbalhara said: “in this post, there was discussion on Girimananda Sutta, and a line translated as: “Ananda, all sankhāra are like meatless bones, without substance.” could you please confirm if name of sutta is correct or if another sutta has these lines, as i couldn’t find these lines in girimananda sutta on suttacentral..”
I have given the link to the sutta in the post and it is correct; just click on the link. The exact phrase in the sutta (as stated in the post): “Katamā cānanda, sabbasaṅkhāresu anicchāsaññā? Idhānanda, bhikkhu sabbasaṅkhāresu aṭṭīyati harāyati jigucchati. Ayaṃ vuccatānanda, sabbasaṅkhāresu anicchāsaññā.”
Attiyati means like a chewing on a meatless bone.
Harayati means without “core” or substance.
Jigujjhati means like urine and feces: not to be liked, let alone craved.This basically says, even though we generate vaci sankhara and “day dream” about sense pleasures, at a deep level those sankhara lead to corresponding vinnana, bhava, etc , and births (Paticca Samuppada) filled with suffering. Of course it is not easy to easy to grasp this aspect of anicca nature. It is said that only an Arahant can fully comprehend this aspect.
What needs to be understood first is that “it is not fruitful” to cultivate such conscious thoughts, and not to do immoral things to get such pleasures. Actually, getting there, especially regarding not generating vaci sankhara on sense pleasures, is achieved only at the Anagami stage.
See: “Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra“.
I emphasize on vaci sankhara because that is where we start (talking to oneself). Then it leads to speech (still vaci sankhara), and then to bodily actions (kaya sankhara).
