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Embodied said: “A Deva of the Tāvatimsa devaloka – the lowest heaven of the lower plane thus – reborning as a human, or the opposite meaning a human reborning as a deva in the referred realm, is this possible ?”
In principle, any being can be born in any realm other than those reserved for the Anagamis; see, “31 Realms of Existence“.
For example, a human can be reborn a deva or an animal; a deva can be born a human or animal; an animal can be born a human or deva, even though that is rare.
Y not said: ” The only instance I can see where this may not be clear would be when a deva or brahma ‘descends’ to the human realm to listen to a desana – but then it cannot be said that he is ‘reborn’ here.”
Beings in the higher realms (devas and brahmas) can come to our world any time for a “visit”. In the days of the Buddha many came to hear discourses. It is said that while only one of the five ascetics attained the Sotapanna stage while listening to the first desana, Dhamma Cakka Pavattana Sutta, millions of devas (including brahmas) attained various magga phala.
They can remain invisible to humans or become visible if they want to.
Both devas and brahmas have fine bodies that we cannot see (like gandhabbas). Deva bodies are more dense, but still cannot be seen by humans, unless they “present themselves”.On an interesting side note, the King of Tāvatimsa, Sakka, became a Sotapanna while listening to a desana by the Buddha. So, he may be still there as a Sotapanna.
Waharaka Thero has mentioned several instances where there were signs that devas came to listen to his desanas. It is still a tradition in Asian countries to invite devas to come and listen before a bhikkhu starts delivering a desana.
Yes. As Donna says (and others have implied), if one has understood the message of the Buddha, there should be only one item on the bucket list: To at least get released from the apayas, and then to get to the next stage.
I have not yet pointed out one key point that I am trying to make with the new section. But the comments by Vilas (vilaskadival) got me thinking about the importance of making that point now. Thanks to Vilas for his comments. I would like everyone to give some thoughts to the following points.
Puredhamma site so far has been all about the mind. The new section on quantum mechanics (QM), on the other hand, is all about matter (above the suddhashtaka stage).
Those two areas operate on very different rules.
Inert matter just follows a set of rules. Newtonian mechanics had a set of rules that were easier to grasp. QM rules (that deal with microscopic particles) are not so easy to grasp, but nonetheless are rules. If one knows the rules, one can calculate what is going to happen in a certain experiment that involves the motion of matter (in the case of QM, only probabilities can be calculated in many cases; but experimental results are always consistent with those calculations or predictions).
But the mind is very different. Each person is very unpredictable. Any given person X has his/her own mind, and no one else can predict how X is going to react to a certain situation. Put it in another way, two people will respond differently under the same conditions. Some responses may look similar, but not the same. The more complex the situation is, the larger the differences in responses.
There are many people who try to tie QM to consciousness. One may offhand think that I would try to do the same. But rules of QM are very different from the rules of the mind. What I am actually trying to do with this new section is to take this “perceived mystical aspect” out of QM. Once one understands some key basic facts, QM is actually easy to grasp. But the mind is unimaginably complex.
Of course, there are some commonalities between the mind and the microscopic realm probed by QM. That involves quantum entanglement. And, I have only emphasized that aspect so far in this new section. But we always need to keep in mind that matter above the suddhashtaka stage and the mind are in TWO DIFFERENT realities (or need to be treated differently). Mind is the root cause of matter.
Maybe I should write a post on this subject, because it is a very important issue. However, I would like us to discuss this in a bit more detail first to see whether what I am saying makes sense or not. It was not easy to explain these details in the paper that we submitted. So, one should really the posts where things are explained in more detail. In particular, the next post will be a critical one.
So, I am glad that Vilas brought up his ideas. Instead of commenting specifically on them, I would like him and others to first think about what I described above.
Yes. I did say, “but I am still working on trying to see the dangers of sense pleasures and thereby making a convincing case that all we perceive as “pleasures” in the human and dēva realms are in fact CAUSES for future suffering” in that post.
However, I meant more in the sense of results in future lives. For example, one will not be released from the apayas as long as one enjoys hurting others/animals, and one is not released from the “good realms in kama loka” (human and deva realms), as long as one HAS CRAVINGS for normal sense pleasure.
But normally one does not start disliking or developing adverse reactions to eating especially. Remember that the Buddha was offered most delicious foods by Kings. It is just that he never had a craving for such foods.
For example, sugar or cakes taste sweet or lemon will taste sour for an Arahant too. These are called kama guna, and anyone in a given bhava will SENSE THEM the same. Another opposing example is that pigs taste feces, rotting foods, etc and that is a kama guna for pigs. See, “Kāma Guna, Kāma, Kāma Rāga, Kāmaccanda“.
However, there could be some experiences like what Donna (inflib) is experiencing. While I have not developed any dislikes for foods like cakes or anything else, I see a big change in tasting alcoholic drinks. I now simply cannot drink any strong alcohol like whiskey. I used to love to drink beer and have no apatite now. I may be able to drink a beer, but I have not even tried recently. And I cannot stand loud music and have not watched a movie for over probably two years; it seems just a waste of time. I guess I could do some of that if I really wanted to, but the desire is not there.
I am saying all this just to clarify the point that not many will experience the aversions that Donna is experiencing. This is why each person’s experience is unique, even though there are common general trends.
Embodied said: “I’m attracted to Pâli even more than to sanskrit but do i have to use the key words each time i post something ?”
I am not sure what you mean.
We use words to express ourselves. Which words one uses does not matter much, as long as one can convey what one means.However, I find that it is not possible to convey what is meant by key words like anicca or dukkha by one English word or even many English words. For example, some people use “impermanence” to replace anicca, but that is not even close to the true meaning of anicca.
If you can give an example of what you mean, that would be helpful.
@y not: Yes. I knew that you probably had the idea. But I just want to make sure important points like this are not to be missed. My comments are always intended to be general (for all reading these comments).
Yes. I do understand the frustration of Embodied and many others. But as y not says, we all have been born all over the world many, many times. We all have been exposed to Pali in the past, and one can “pick it up” with time. Of course, it will come a bit easier to those who have been exposed in more recent births.
Also, if you have not already see this: “Why is it Necessary to Learn Key Pali Words?“.
Yes, Johnny. That is correct.
Punnabhisankhara (morally good deeds yielding good vipaka) or apunnabhisankhara (morally bad deeds yielding bad vipaka) are done only with javana citta.
Johnny said: “do arahants dream since their minds are always mindful and bright..:
I have no idea whether Arahants dream or not. And it does not matter much anyway. When dreaming, one never generates javana citta (i.e., conscious thinking is not involved). In Abhidhamma language, those citta vithi involved are parittarammana and atiparittarammana citta vithi which do not have javana citta.
– So, dreaming is a “passive state”: one just experiences what is shown in the dream. For example, in bad dream one may see an animal chasing to kill oneself, but one is even unable to run or try to hide.
– However, as one’s gets purified, one will stop seeing such “bad dreams”. That I know by experience. However, whether all dreams stop for an Arahant, I don’t know.
Y not said: “..dreaming in the waking state, fantasizing..”
Fantasizing is not dreaming. This is VERY important to understand. One must stop fantasizing as soon as one becomes aware of it; that is part of Satipatthana.
– When one fantasizes one is consciously thinking about a previous sensual experience or an anticipated future sensual experience. These are part of vaci sankhara that lead to “bad vinnana“, i.e., they are done with javana citta: “Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra“.
Embodied said: “The “sine qua non” condition for not getting attached to a single material thing is not to experience it at all,or is to experience it but without getting attached ?”
This is a very good question.
The goal is to eventually “be able to experience it but without getting attached”.
It is important to realize that this CANNOT be accomplished directly by will power alone, even though sheer will power should be used to prevent obviously immoral actions.
One will be able to accomplish it over time, when one does two things:
1. Cultivates Anapana (Satipatthana) where one forcefully rejects bad thoughts and cultivates good thoughts.
2. Cultivates anicca sanna over time.1 and 2 depend on each other and feed on each other.
This is the key. There is a lot to think about it, and that is what I tried to do emphasize with the 5 sets of discourses on Tilakkhana. I am not sure how many are able to grasp this.
The Buddha followed the following 4 guidelines and advocated others to do the same.
1. If you know something that is not helpful and is untrue, then do not say it
2. If you know something that might be helpful, but is untrue, do not say it
3. If you know something that is not helpful and is true, do not speak about it
4. If you know something that is helpful and is true, then find the right time to say it.We must be careful about humor, since it may fall into the “empty speech” (samppapalapa) category, which is a dasa akusala.
Hi Donna,
Thanks for pointing out the omission. I have fixed it, and the 9 types of vedana are highlighted in red.
Hi Johnny, please keep the questions open so everyone can answer.
Yes. That is correct.
However, some of those are “secondary rupa”. The root cause is always the mind. So, javana citta are the one’s that really cause the whole world to arise, and it needs a deep analysis to cover fully. However, this is what is discussed at the “Nāma & Rūpa to Nāmarūpa” subsection.
However, here are the key points:
1. Cittaja rupa are the rupa or energies created by the mind in javana citta.
2.Those energies remain in the nama loka for a very long time, until their energies slowly run out. If suitable conditions appear they then bring vipaka via kammaja rupa. For example, at the cuti-patisandhi moment the hadaya vatthu and pasada rupa created are such kammaja rupa (kammaja means generated via kamma).
3. Cittaja and kammaja rupa give rise to utuja rupa. Utuja rupa have nothing to with “temperature” though. These are basically those rupa that we experience (material things).
4. Aharaja rupa are those created by a body during digestion, for example.
Therefore, kammaja, utuja, aharaja rupa all have true origins in cittaja rupa. This is why it is said that “mano pubbangama dhamma..” or “mind is the precursor..”.Hi Allay,
Please don’t address questions to just to me. Keep them open. I encourage everyone to participate.1. Gandhabba cannot make decisions on that. Only gandhabba’s of people who have developed abhinna powers can come out of the body at will.
– Actually, some people with “punna iddhi” (as vipaka of good kamma) have the ability to get the gandhabba or the mental body out of the physical body at will. Also, during heart operations, they may be ejected too. See, “Manomaya Kaya and Out-of-Body Experience (OBE)“.
– Some other people with another type of punna iddhi can see some “dense gandhabbas“.
– I hope some of them will volunteer to discuss their experiences at the forum.2. Even if the physical body is failing the gandhabba inside is fine. It just does not get any inputs from outside if the brain is failing (because the mana indriya is not working and “dhamma” from the mano loka are not coming in); see, “What are rūpa? – Dhammā are rūpa too!“.
-Now, the death of the physical body does not necessarily mean it is the cuit-patisandhi moment. That happens when the kammic energy for the bhava runs out. So, when the physical body dies, gandhabba is ejected and has to wait for another womb; see, “Bhava and Jati – States of Existence and Births Therein“.3. This is a difficult personal decision for the one who has the authority to initiate the “shutdown process”. It is taking a life, but his/her compassion for the dying person may mitigate some of the bad consequences.
– Let me mention the following account from the Tipitaka. One time the Bodhisatva was a captain of a ship. During a voyage, part of the crew plotted to kill him and most of the crew to take over ship. The Bodhisatva found out about the plot and killed the coup leader. That avoided a conflict which could have led to the loss of many lives. However, the vipaka for killing that person cannot be avoided.
– This is another type of suffering associated with life in this world. Some actions have both good and bad kamma vipaka, and it is not easy to decide whether to do it or not.
