[Lal]

Magga phala citta (attaining the Sotapanna stage) happens DURING listening to a desana.

However, one may not realize it until even a few weeks later, when one starts realizing that some of one’s gathi have changed.

[Lal]

“What I don’t understand is, how sukha vedana can arise while eating tasty food or smelling a nice odor.”

That is a good observation. Here is another thing to think about: kama guna that are based on one’s bhava:

Kāma Guna, Kāma, Kāma Rāga, Kāmaccanda

Obviously, an Arahant also tastes the sweetness of sugar. Does that count as a “sukha vedana”? May be this needs to be decided at how a “sukha vedana” is defined.

Is “sukha vedana” defined as “a bodily sensation”? If so, sweetness of sugar would not count as a sukha vedana.
– However, since “somanassa” is defined as a “mental construction”, sweetness of sugar would not count as a somanassa vedana either!
– May be it is a “mental construction” that happens AUTOMATICALLY based on bhava.
– For example, humans like the taste of sugar, but a pig does not, which likes the taste of feces. So, just being a human one feels sugar as likable or tasty.

[Lal]

What Vince said is true for making general progress.

Upekkha100’s question is specifically on attaining the Sotapanna stage. In the Sotā­patti­phala­ Sutta (SN 55.55) it says: “Cattārome, bhikkhave, dhammā bhāvitā bahulīkatā sotā­patti­phala­sacchi­kiriyāya saṃvattanti. Katame cattāro? Sap­purisa­saṃ­sevo, saddham­mas­savanaṃ, yoniso­ma­nasikāro, dhammā­nu­dhammap­paṭi­patti..”

So, “saddham­ma ­savanaṃ” or “listening to correct Dhamma” is one of the 4 requirements to attain the Sotapanna stage.

Now, as upekkha says: “I would think that the energy that was emanating from the Ariya’s mind(as the desana was being delivered) would be able to reach the mind of X.” is likely to play a role.

The question is whether that “live listening” is necessary or whether a recorded desana is sufficient.

We may never get a conclusive answer, but Waharaka Thero probably had some valid reasons to say that it would be sufficient to listen to a recorded desana by an Ariya.

Here is another thing to think about:
As I explained in an answer to another question today, we need to think about how the “sota indriya” (which is not the same as the physical ear) works.

Sound waves are transmitted through air as waves of air compressions, just like water wave that propagate outwards when a stone is dropped in water.
– Air compressions hit the ear drum inside “the physical ear”, and makes it vibrate.
– Those vibrations are sent to the brain and the brain converts them to a “sound signal” (this is how a microphone converts spoken words to an electric signal too) which it then transmits to the “sota pasada rupa” located close to the hadaya vatthu in the mental body (gandhabba); see, “Brain – Interface between Mind and Body“.

Now, when a recorded signal is played back, it re-creates that same sound wave propagating through air. Therefore, whether listening alive or via listening to a recording, one’s ear drums will generate the same signal.

Therefore, other than effect of being exposed to the “javana energy of cittas” while listening to a live desana (mentioned above), the actual sound reaching the sota pasada rupa will be the same.

So, while it could be better to listen directly, listening to a recorded desana is likely to be enough.

From the accounts of some people at this forum, and also according to those who have listened to Abhaya Thero’s desanas on internet, listening to a recorded desana seems to be sufficient.

[Lal]

The post being discussed is: “Feelings: Sukha, Dukha, Somanassa, and Domanassa”

One way to separate domanassa and somanassa vedana from sukha and dukha vedana is that the former two have associated “mental factors (cetasika)” generated.

So, they are also called “cetasika sukha or cetasika dukha”. Those do not arise in Arahants and arise due to one’s defilements (getting attached to it becoming joyful or being repelled by it and becoming irritated).

The ear-piercing sound is really a dukha vedana (due to vipaka) that is associated with kaya, not the ears (sota indriya).
– Here we need to think about how the “sota indriya” (which is not the same as the physical ear) works. Air compressions hit the ear drum inside “the physical ear”, and makes it vibrate. Those vibrations are sent to the brain and the brain converts them to a “sound signal” which it then transmits to the “sota pasada rupa” located close to the hadaya vatthu in the mental body (gandhabba); see, “Brain – Interface between Mind and Body“.

• So, the dukha vedana created by an “ear-piercing sound” is actually due to the high perturbation of the ear drum (part of the physical body), a physical sensation. If it is really strong, the ear drum may be damaged and one could feel pain just like due to a wound.
• Of course, one could also generate domanassa vedana due to being irritated by that.

An Arahant would feel the first (physical), but not the second (mental) due to that “ear-piercing sound”.

[Lal]

I see a lot of good advice. Here are a few more.

Merit giving is always good. You can “give” only after “gaining”. But that “gain” could come in many ways: when one gives to the poor, animals, and especially to bhikkhus, one “gains” merits for oneself, which one can the share with all beings, in one’s mid. One can also gain by doing satipatthana (being mindful). When one has avoided a bad kamma by being mindful, one will feel the “joy”, which again one share, etc. One can also gain by doing vipassana (insight meditation) by contemplating on Dhamma concepts (dasa akusala, five precepts, anicca, dukkha, anatta, paticca samuppada, etc).

One can gain “niramisa sukha” or “cooling down” just living a simple life. When we try to accumulate too many material things (thinking that they will provide us with pleasures), they only increase the burdens that we are already carrying. That does not mean one should give up everything. One needs certain things live this life. But the minimum one can live is the best. One has to be wise in making decisions though. For example, there is no point in paying for a “high end car” costing a lot money, but one should not buy a cheap car that breaks down often too (if one can afford); buying a “really cheap” car would only add more problems to handle, when it starts breaking down.

By the way, I would not worry about whether devas exist or not. We can see the suffering of humans and especially animals. Think about the pain suffered by an animal while being eaten alive or an old person without anyone to help. When I see those old people begging, I wonder what they would do when they get sick. That generates a lot of compassion. Then it is only natural to give merits to all such beings in this world. There are countless beings in much worse conditions.

So, we must not be depressed even if we do have problems. Everyone does. We just need to try to minimize the suffering by acting mindfully. Most of the things that we can do are not that hard to do. We just need to slowly start seeing the “hidden suffering” in things that we perceive to provide pleasure. Just like a fish bites into a “tasty looking” worm on a hook, we tend to overlook the suffering hidden in sense pleasures. Simple life is a happy life.

It may be a good idea to read of the posts in the following sections. Each person’s level of understanding is different. So, one can read different sections and see which ones resonate with oneself.
“Moral Living and Fundamentals”
“Living Dhamma“

[Lal]

“Speaking of that, AN 10.63 Nitthangatasutta opens with: all those who have come to a conclusion about me are accomplished in view. (“Ye keci, bhikkhave, mayi niṭṭhaṃ gatā sabbe te diṭṭhisampannā.) The two single words’mayi. and ‘nittham’ are not translated into English, only a ? is supplied. By ‘“all those who have come to a conclusion about me” I felt a surge of joy in the heart, taking that to mean ‘those whose confidence and faith in the Buddha has become well-grounded, unshakable , the very basis of their lives – and so they have come to hold right view” Does the original Pali justify this rendering?”

Yes. Very good. Now you can see why I say this Dhamma has been hidden all these years.

Regarding AN 4.34:
Pasāda is the key word in the sutta. It means a combination of confidence/faith/reverence/joy all combined.One who has pasāda about something becomes pasannā.
“Ye, bhikkhave, buddhe pasannā, agge te pasannā” means one who has developed pasāda for the Buddha has attained the foremost pasāda.
– “agga” means foremost or best.
– So, the sutta lists four things that belong to “foremost pasāda”: Buddha, ariya aṭṭhaṅgika magga, virāga dhamma, saṅgha.

Then, “Agge kho pana pasannānaṃ aggo vipāko hoti“, means “(having) foremost pasāda leads to foremost (best) results (vipaka)”.

So, your translation was good there too.

[Lal]

This is a sutta with a deep meaning that needs to be translated carefully. This is why I keep saying that one needs to be careful when reading English translations of suttas.

• While existing English translations of many suttas are OK, there are exceptions like this one (and of course those to do with anicca, dukkha, anatta, etc).

The key (and starting verse) is: “Nāhaṃ, bhikkhave, sañcetanikānaṃ kammānaṃ katānaṃ upacitānaṃ appaṭi­saṃ­ve­ditvā byantībhāvaṃ vadāmi, tañca kho diṭṭheva dhamme upapajje vā apare vā pariyāye. Na tvevāhaṃ, bhikkhave, sañcetanikānaṃ kammānaṃ katānaṃ upacitānaṃ appaṭi­saṃ­ve­ditvā duk­khas­san­takiri­yaṃ vadāmi.”

I have not had much time to think about it. But I think this is the key idea in that verse:
“Bhikkhus, as long as one does kamma without understanding “san” (how defilements are associated with their certain actions or “appaṭi­saṃ­ve­ditvā”), they will never be able to bring existence to an end (byantibhavama), either in this life, the next life or in any future life. Therefore, they will not be able to bring suffering to an end (duk­khas­san­takiri­yaṃ).

When one comprehends Tilakkhana, AND becomes good at being mindful (Satipatthana), one can quickly figure out whether an action that one is about to take is a bad one. One becomes “patisamvedi” and is called “sampajanno” when one gets good at it.
– That means one can “feel” automatically whether a given action that one is about to take is a good or bad one.

This is explained in detail in “Kāyānupassanā – The Section on Habits (Sampajānapabba)“.
– It may be a good idea to read the sections before that too: “Maha Satipatthana Sutta“.

Note that there is no mention of “vipaka” in that verse. The translation is completely wrong.

y not said: “In short it says that getting rid of desire and ill-will and practicing Metta to all beings makes one an Anagami.” AND

“Of course, the first three fetters are not mentioned, i.e.they are taken as already destroyed, so this must be referring to Sakadagamis here (ABSENCE of desire and ill-will)..”

Those two statements summarize the situation:

In order to get the Anagami stage via metta bhavana, one must have comprehended Tilakkhana at least to the level of a Sotapanna (Sakadagami stage is not necessary, even though better).
– Absence of desire and lii-will need only to be suppressed while doing the metta bhavana (i.e., absent during the bhavana); if they have been removed, then one is already an Anagami.

[Lal]

Yes. Welcome to the forum, Lvalio!

I have been travelling today.

Thanks to upekkha for providing the information for Lvalio.

[Lal]

” whether listening is a requirement in attaining the Sotapanna
Stage.”

Yes. It is.
I have mentioned is in a post. I am travelling today.

[Lal]

Hello Lang,

Yes. You are doing the right things. Let us know your progress and if you have questions on the way.

May the Blessings of the Triple Gem be with you in your efforts!

[Lal]

As I said in a different post, it is not possible to quantify the “strengths” of different types of kamma. Some of what you stated do make sense, though.

Furthermore,when they bring vipaka normally many past kamma are combined, so it is not at all possible to sort things out.

It is enough to know the general trends. We should abstain from all four of those things to do with akusala kamma.

To repeat what I had stated earlier:
From the Acinteyya Sutta (AN 4.77):

“There are these four things that are not to be conjectured about, that could make one go mad (become a mental patient). Which four?

• The Buddha-range (i.e., Buddha’s knowledge) is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about.
• The jhana-range of a person in jhana (including kinds of supernormal powers that one can attain).
• The precise workings of kamma.
• Origins of the world.

These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness and confusion to anyone who tries to find everything about them.”

[Lal]

“1) Those 4 actions also apply to good deeds?”
Yes.

“2) The order that those 4 acts are listed, is it in order of highest kammic weight to lowest kammic weight(assuming the actions are done to the same sentient being)?”

Mental effects are hard to quantify, as I explained in a previous comment too. It depends also on the mental state (progress on the Path) of the particular person.

Please read the posts mentioned in #14 of that post.

For example, killing a human is million-fold worse than killing an animal. Even saying something hurtful to a human is much worse than killing an animal. These cannot be explained in a single response like this or even in a post. I highly recommend reading those posts in #14. If there are more questions, we can discuss those.

Lying is also really not “musā vāda”. The precept “musā vāda veramani sikkhā padam samādiyāmi” has been one of the precepts that is being mis-translated as, “I will refrain from lying”.

“musā” is wrong and “vāda” is trying to make a point. So, musa vada really means “making adhamma to be dhamma and vice versa.
– For example, if one says it is OK to kill animals for pleasure, that is a musā vāda. If someone says, “There is no rebirth” or “there is no benefit in giving” those are musā vāda.

Let me give an example of a case of lying that is not musā vāda; When Nazis came looking for Jews, some Germans hid them in their homes. If Nazis came to their house and asked whether there are any Jews in the house, they would say “no”. That was a lie, but is not a musā vāda. They were trying to save the lives of those people.

Here is an example from the Tipitaka that most people are aware of. Prince Nanda (who was a cousin of prince Siddhartha), was going to get married to a beautiful princess and also become the King on the same day. The Buddha saw that Nanda had the ability to become an Arahant. So, he persuaded Nanda to become a bhikkhu. Even though Nanda became a bhikkhu, he kept thinking about his princess. So, the Buddha one day took him to the deva realm and showed him some beautiful female devas, and asked him he would rather those or the princess that he was going to get married to. Bhikkhu Nanda said, his princess was like a “burnt monkey” compared to those female devas. So, the Buddha promised that Nanda would be able to have those female devas, if he followed the instructions given by the Buddha. By following those instructions, Ven. Nanda soon attained the Arahanthood.
– A Buddha would never be able utter a musā vāda. What he actually did was to save Nanda from unimaginable future suffering. If he became the King, he would accumulate many bad kamma enough to be born in the apayas many time over.
– However, this does mean it is OK to lie. In most cases, a lie is a musā vāda.

[Lal]

Thank you for posting this video. I had not seen it.

Yes. The power of the mind has been hidden all these years.

Scientists are reluctant to believe these effects because they cannot truly “reproduce” the results. They want to see exactly the same results when an experiment is repeated.
– One person’s mind is not the same as the mind of another. Javana power created in a mind depends on how pure it is. Javana power of an Arahant or someone with magga phala will be much higher. Of course we cannot assign numbers, and that is a problem for scientists who tend to “assign a number” to each parameter.
– As you had mentioned in another post, you have experienced the difference between just saying a verse (without any effect) and reciting it with understanding (by “putting you r mind really in to it”).

Still, it is at a point now that they cannot refute the qualitative results. As the above video says, no one can dispute that there is an observable effect.

Another example is the following video posted by Eric:
The Rice Experiment (Video)
– If someone is curious, this experiment can be done at home. Please let us know if anyone does the experiment.
– There are probably videos online where the experiment did not “work”, i.e., they could not see any difference between the two cases. That is because they were just saying the words without the “mind power” behind it (without true comprehension).

The key point is that javana power of a citta can be enhanced even by doing mundane metta bhavana as in the above video. If a large group of Ariyas repeat this experiment, one could get astounding results.

Anyway, we really don’t need to do experiments. We all can do our part each day. Furthermore, that power will keep increasing as we all purify our minds more.

Here is a relevant post: “Javana of a Citta – The Root of Mental Power“.

[Lal]

From the Acinteyya Sutta (AN 4.77):

“There are these four things that are not to be conjectured about, that could make one go mad (become a mental patient). Which four?

“The Buddha-range (i.e., Buddha’s knowledge) is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about.
“The jhana-range of a person in jhana (including kinds of supernormal powers that one can attain).
The precise workings of the results of kamma.
Origins of the world.
These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness and confusion to anyone who tries to find everything about them.”

However, it is good to get SOME IDEA about the wider world of 31 realms. There is no single sutta or a chapter on Abhidhamma that is focused on that.
– What I, and others, have done is to collect bits and pieces of information in many places in the Tipitaka and try to form a crude picture.
– We will never be able to go into fine details. Even if the Buddha wanted to, he would not have been able to provide such a vast amount of information, especially without a printing press that we have today.

Furthermore, he specifically said that he does not want people to get distracted from the main goal: to end future suffering in the rebirth process.

Now, going back to the question of a deva: It appears that a deva could die and be born in the same realm many times, just like humans can be born many times within a given human bhava. The only difference is that a deva will be instantly reborn in another location (in the same realm).

[Lal]

“2) Or will the pattidana have no impact on Y and Z’s good kamma beeja. Rather, the only impact the pattidana will have is on the mindset of Y and Z, by elevating their mindsets?”

That is the main point. One cannot “give” causes(kamma beeja). One can give only conditions for those kamma beeja to germinate. That is what I explained above and also on those posts.

However, I forgot to mention something important. Pattidana is more effective for only certain beings: Especially some pretas, and also gandhabbas to some extent. Those pretas are totally dependent on pattidana. I have talked about this.

Unless one is giving merits to a deceased person or persons, it is always better to give merits to ALL BEINGS. That will help make the conditions better in the whole world for all beings.

This is what the Arahants do, and of course they are very effective. Cultivating metta to all, and giving merits to all, will make conditions in the “whole world” better for all beings. After all, any living being has been one’s father, mother etc in this beginning-less rebirth process: “How the Buddha Described the Chance of Rebirth in the Human Realm“.

[Author]

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