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y not said: “What is it that I am missing here? I apparently do not see that you addressed this in your reply:..”
Apparently, I did not read your comment carefully. I thought you had understood. If something is not clear, it is better to ask a question, rather than to make a statement. I have said this to you before too. I cannot miss it, if a direct question is asked.
y not asked: ” How are there eight here when 4 (the 4 Magga) exist only for the duration of a chitta?”
That is the whole point. A Sotapanna Anugami HAS NOT HAD a magga citta yet.
Having a “magga citta” moment is different from being on the path (magga) to become a Sotapanna.
To put it in another way: A “magga anugami” may be a better word. That means one who is following the path to get to the “magga” moment.
That is all I can say. I cannot explain that any better. Please read my comments and the post in question carefully. Then refer to any of those statements and ask a direct question.
Regarding the quotation that Akvan gave from the post, I just revised that sentence to make it more precise: “Thus when one gets into the Sōtapanna magga citta, for example, one receives the Sōtapanna phala in the very next citta,..”.
I also added #3 from my post above to that post (new #2) to make it more clear ( https://puredhamma.net/three-levels-of-practice/sotapanna-stage-of-nibbana/sotapanna-anugami-and-sotapanna/ ):
The citta vithi for a magga phala is discussed at the end of the post, “Citta Vithi – Processing of Sense Inputs“:
B B B “BC BU MD P U A G Pa Fr Fr” B B BIn other words, a Sotapanna Anugami is getting closer to the “change of lineage” or G. The earlier stages of P, U, A, may be reached gradually. Once that level of comprehension is complete, one makes that transition (G), completes the lokottara kamma, and immediately receives the phala.
Akvan said:” If a person who is striving to comprehend thilakkana and working towards becoming a sotapanna is a sotapanna anugami shouldn’t a person who has already reached the sotapanna stage automatically become a sakadagami anugami?”
That is essentially correct. But technically, a Sotapanna is not called a “Sakadagami Anugami” unless he/she is making an effort to get to the Sakadagami stage.
Yes. The explanation of y not is correct.
Hello Akvan,
- We can think of it this way. Nibbana is attained in four steps (Sotapanna, Sakadagami,..). At each step one comprehends Tilakkhana (and asubha nature) to a significant level. Magga citta is basically when one really grasps this “real nature” at a given level, and that is completing a kamma. One gets the vipaka (or the result of that kamma) in the very next citta.
– This is a citta niyama (a universal law). All four “lokottara kamma” have immediate results, in the very next citta. - Sotapanna Anugami has not yet attained a magga or a phala citta. He/she has heard the correct Tilakkhana and may have some understanding. But that understanding has not yet reached the “tipping point”; see, “Sotapanna Anugami and a Sotapanna“.
- The citta vithi for a magga phala is discussed at the end of the post, “Citta Vithi – Processing of Sense Inputs“:
B B B “BC BU MD P U A G Pa Fr Fr” B B B
In other words, a Sotapanna Anugami is getting closer to the “change of lineage” or G. The earlier stages of P, U, A, may be reached gradually. Once that level of comprehension is complete, one makes that transition (G), completes the lokottara kamma, and immediately receives the phala.
Hello Eric,
Yes. It may backfire if you try to make drastic changes too quickly. These things take time to heal.
Even the drugs may need to be reduced gradually. So, your doctors may be doing the right thing.
you are an intelligent person. You will overcome these problems over time. Just have perseverance.
Siebe: When you post things like this, please make sure to include at least a reference to the Pali version.
P.S. Thanks for sending the Pali link: Sāṇavāsīthera Petavatthu
Yes. That translation is good enough to give the basic idea.
The idea is the same as I explained above. When food is offered those types of petas can get food. When clothes are donated and merits are transferred, they can get clothes, etc.
As I explained above, there are many things that are not discernible to us, i.e., such phenomena do not happen in the human realm.
You may know about the sutta where a silver mansion appeared in a deva realm for Anathapindika, when he built and dedicated the Jetavanaramaya for the Buddha and Sangha. That was even before he died. So, the merits of that giving gave results immediately.
I would not get into these things too much. There is “no end”, and it can throw people off the main goal. This is what happens to some people who get interested in jhana. They get trapped. But of course, jhanas are not bad, if they come naturally.
It is better to spend the time in contemplating Tilakkhana and asubha nature of this world.
What Janussoni asked: “..Dānāni dema, saddhāni karoma: ‘idaṃ dānaṃ petānaṃ ñāti¬sālo¬hi¬tā¬naṃ upakappatu, idaṃ dānaṃ petā ñātisālohitā paribhuñjantū’ti. Kacci taṃ, bho gotama, dānaṃ petānaṃ ñāti¬sālo¬hi¬tā¬naṃ upakappati; kacci te petā ñātisālohitā taṃ dānaṃ paribhuñjantī”ti?
Dāna is giving. Actually, in the context of the sutta what was done in those days was to give foods to yogis and then give merits of that to petas. It does not make sense to translate dāna in this context as “gifts”.
Paribhuñjati or bhunjati means eating, especially in this context.
The sutta makes that very clear in the paragraph on the petas: “So kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā pettivisayaṃ upapajjati. Yo petti¬vesa¬yi¬kānaṃ sattānaṃ āhāro, tena so tattha yāpeti, tena so tattha tiṭṭhati, yaṃ vā panassa ito anup¬pavec¬chanti mittāmaccā vā ñātisālohitā vā, tena so tattha yāpeti, tena so tattha tiṭṭhati. Idaṃ kho, brāhmaṇa, ṭhānaṃ yattha ṭhitassa taṃ dānaṃ upakappatī”ti.”
It specifically says food or ahara for the petas.
This is the problem of mindlessly translating suttas, without paying attention to the message conveyed.
There are many things about this complex world, that we will not be able to fully comprehend. How can food offered to yogis can materialize as food for petas? It is not that different from how pattidana/punna anumodana works. Most of those yogis were highly moral and had cultivated abhinna powers too; so, there is definitely merits gained by such offerings of food.
Siebe said: “The Buddha states there are impossible places, i.e. places of rebirth in which the death apparantly cannot partake of our gifts offered. It seems only rebirth as a hungry ghost (peta) is a possible place. They can partake of offerings but other rebirths seem to be impossible places.”
This translation does not adequately express the true idea of that sutta. Janussoni brahmana asked the Buddha: “ Bhante, you know that we brahmans make offerings, saying, ‘May this food be enjoyed by our dead relatives; may our dead relatives accept this food.’ Now, Bhante, can our dead relatives actually accept this food?”
So, what the Buddha explained was that only those relatives who are born in certain peta realms (hungry ghosts) can actually accept and consume that food. In fact, the Buddha said that those particular petas get their food only that way. If they do not get such offerings, they just go hungry.
On the other hand, beings in other realms cannot get their food that way. For example, one born as a hell-being, an animal, a human, or a deva cannot get their food from such offerings, because that is not how they get their food.
However, this has nothing to do with giving merits (pattidana/punna anumodana). All beings can benefit from that; see, “Transfer of Merits (Pattidāna) – How Does it Happen?“.
@ y not: Sorry I missed your post.
Paying back previous debts is very important. These connections prevail though many lives, and can block the path to Nibbana.
For example, there is a Tipitaka story about two bhikkhus who meditated together. They could not concentrate because each one keep seeing a huge pile of rice in the mind. Finally, they came to the Buddha, who explained that they had been together as two beggars in a far back life; one didn’t have anything to eat one night and asked for some rice from the other. He promised to pay it back, but died overnight. That was the debt waiting to be paid. So, the Buddha asked the monk who was the donor in that previous life to focus on the other and to say that he is forgiven. Once that was done, those “mental rice piles” disappeared from their minds and they were able to proceed.
Here a question may come up: how could it be bad for the donor, since he did a good deed? However, the donor in this particular case did not “donate” in the true sense (i.e., with no attachment to that cup of rice). Rather, it was a loan that he wanted the other to pay back. This is why it is important to “give” in the true sense giving.
When one is doing metta bhavana, one is paying off all such previous debts. Even mundane metta bhavana is good. As one’s comprehension of anicca, dukkha, anatta, asubha nature, that will increasingly become Ariya metta bhavana. In other words, power of the javana citta will get stronger with increased understanding.
This is the mindset that Tien had when he started contemplating on an ant in his earlier post. When one realizes that all beings are “in the same boat”, and are subjected to this sansaric suffering, one’s mind will generate high javana power.
P.S. It is important to realize that not each and every little debt is going to affect one like in the above example. We know that there are many examples where people attained even Arahanthood in the same life after killing people (Angulimala is a good example); that is a huge debt! So, the story given above is not a typical case. Mind issues can be very complex.
Tien said: “When look back to the experience I describe here, I can tell it’s Sakadagami Phala, it’s hard to differentiate between this and Anagami Phala, only later time when you will know for sure..”
Yes. Getting rid of kama raga anusaya is harder. This is why we all have been trapped in the rebirth process for so long. A Sakadagami does not have any desire to “own” those things that provide sense pleasure, but still have cravings to enjoy (some of) them. In fact, I have been in this stage for some time now.
I can clearly see that I have no desire to “enjoy an alcoholic beverage”, to a watch a movie, listen to music, etc (Of course, I can do any of them if I feel like, but I just do not feel like doing them). I have clearly seen not only the uselessness but also the dangers in them. I am easily abstaining from all other sense pleasures as well. It is not that I have to make an effort to do that. But such thoughts (vaci sankhara) keep popping to the mind occasionally, probably due to previous gati, as Tien mentioned. But the frequency of that is reducing.
P.S. Of course, I can only know what I have attained.But there seem to be at least several making good progress.
Thank you, Vilas.
I will get to it ASAP. I need to finish a couple of more posts on the basic aspects of the mind. I am working on probably two posts on bhavanga, which is misunderstood by many.
Siebe said: “Regarding the subject of the range of Mara’s excercising authority.
MN49 describes…”Then Mara the Evil One took possession of a member of
the Brahma’s Assembly..” So, apparantly Mara can take possession of Brahma’s too.”That is true. So, it seems there could be exceptions to #1 in my post above.
Some general comments:
- A being in a given realm cannot adversely affect the mind of another in a higher realm. In fact, a deva cannot even see a brahma in any realm. A Brahma in a lower realm cannot even see one in a higher realm.
- No being in any realm can deviate a Noble person (including a Sotapanna Anugami) from the Noble Path.
- A sotapanna will attain the Arahanthood within 7 bhava. That means they will have to wait a MAXIMUM of 7 bhava. It could happen even within the same bhava or even the same jati, IF one happens to be lucky enough (or make an effort hard enough).
- Devaputta Mara may be able to influence the mind of a Sotapanna to some degree. It is said that Mara was able to make Ven. Ananda’s mind agitated enough to forget to request the Buddha to live his full life (about 100 years). However, Devaputta Mara can never make any Noble Person (Ariya) to be deviated from the Path.
- It is those who have not yet gotten to the Sotapanna Anugamai stage that need to be careful and be mindful. As long as one has faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, NO ONE in any realm can make anyone deviate from the Path. But until one gets to the Sotapanna Anugami stage, one is vulnerable to such external influences (and of course to kilesa Mara or one’s own defilements too).
All those things that you describe are true for anyone, Siebe.
That is part of the suffering that people tend to ignore. Life is a struggle, and we normally do not feel most of the suffering because our minds are focused on perceived benefits in the future.
But by the time one works hard and get to the top of their profession (if one is lucky), one is at the old age and is getting close to death.
It may sound too blunt, but that is the reality. Think about all those who reached their peak 10-20 years ago, and how they are doing now (if they are still alive).
Thanks, Siebe.
Here is an English translation of that sutta (MN 50), that gives the basic idea:
Discourse On A Rebuke To MāraSiebe (or anyone else): Do you know the name of sutta which describes how Devaputta Māra once got inside Ven. Moggallana’s body? He then admonished the Māra and reminded him that he himself was the Māra at an earlier time, and had to be born in the apayas by insulting a Buddha at that time.
The point is that Māra himself would die one day and can be born in the apayas. There is no realm in this world of 31 realms that is “safe”.
All the comments made are good. I just wanted to expand a bit more on what Siebe mentioned.
There are mainly two types of “Māra”, even though the first kind may have more subdivisions. They are both bad.
One is called “kilesa Māra”. These are one’s own defilements. By the way, kilesa means “defilements”. They can be hidden below the surface as anusaya and may be “hidden” for long times, especially when one has a good, steady, moral mindset.
-However, those hidden anusaya (“kilesa Māra”) can easily come back up under suitable conditions. When one’s mind is agitated or when the sense inputs become strong, they can come to the surface.The second is called “Māra deva”, sometimes called the “Devaputta Māra”. He is an actual deva in the Paranimmita vasavatti deva realm, which is the highest deva realm. Obviously, he is could not have been there without doing good deeds. And that is actually the problem. He thinks people should be moral, do good deeds, and be born in deva realms just like him. But he is scared of Nibbana (just like many “secular Buddhists” today; see, “Buddhism without Rebirth and Nibbana?“.
– When the Bodhisatva was striving for the Buddhahood, he tried to convince the Bodhisatva that he should give up trying to find Nibbana and just enjoy worldly pleasures. After the Enlightenment, he came to the Buddha several times asking when he was going to attain Parinibbana.
– There are also several accounts in the Tipitaka where the Māra deva tried to discourage bhikkhus and bhikkhunis from following the Path. Buddha always called him “the evil one”.So, both are real, and should be taken seriously. We should be aware of these possible obstacles. If one deviated from the Noble Path, it is easier for both those to influence one’s mind in negative and harmful ways.
- We can think of it this way. Nibbana is attained in four steps (Sotapanna, Sakadagami,..). At each step one comprehends Tilakkhana (and asubha nature) to a significant level. Magga citta is basically when one really grasps this “real nature” at a given level, and that is completing a kamma. One gets the vipaka (or the result of that kamma) in the very next citta.
