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I have published a new post, “Difference Between Tanhā and Upādāna” to further clarify the issues raised by upekkha100.
These are critical points to grasp. Thanks to upekkha100 for raising them.
Hi Akvan,
“1) Just want to clarify the difference between thanha and upadana. Is it that thanha is more automatic and upadana is more conscious / deliberate?”
Yes. That is exactly right.
Regarding 2:
In the case of a sense input, the PS cycle does not start with avijja, but tanha, as shown in the figure.However, multiple PS cycles can run starting at the mano sankhara to vaci sankhara stage. This is also shown in the figure.
-The key to Anapana/Satipatthana is to break that and to stop more vaci sankhara.
-So, basically the idea is to stop more of those PS cycles starting with “avijja paccaya sankhara” from running again and again in between the “tanha” and “upadana” steps shown in the figure.This post was written to clarify issues raised by upekkha100 in the discussion forum: “Difference between Tanha and Upadana“.
In the “1. General Information and Updates” I wrongly stated that this post is related to the more recent 3-4 posts (I just revised that). They are somewhat related too, but one should really read the discussion topic: “Difference between Tanha and Upadana“.
y not asked: “How has birth been taken in the sense of’ Does one suffer when a baby is born to the family?’ etc. and the suffering taken in regard to those not experiencing birth?”
All jati eventually lead to suffering. That is the deeper message in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.
I was just explaining the verse, “yampicchaṃ na labhati tampi dukkhāṃ” in that older post: “If one does not get what one likes, that is suffering”.
– That older post, “Does the First Noble Truth Describe only Suffering?“ focused on the concept embedded in that verse in a mundane sense, i.e., to covey the basic idea: “If one does not get what one likes, that is suffering”.
– In the LONG RUN all jati lead to suffering.However, with the birth of a baby, eventual net result is suffering. This may not be obvious to many. But it will become clear as one proceeds on the Path. In fact, it becomes clear when one gets close to the Anagami stage.
This is why the Buddha said, “This Dhamma is difficult to understand”. However, things will become clear as we proceed. The three posts that I published in recent days are an attempt to get to some key concepts. I am planning to publish two more. Please read them over and over as needed (especially after reading the next post, which may be out today).
No, Siebe. Attainment of a jhana is an anantariya kamma. It WILL lead to birth in a brahma realm.
However, if one loses that ANARIYA jhana before the time of the death, then he/she will not be born in a brahma realm. That means one’s mindset would have been corrupted.
– However, if that person is not able to get into jhana while on the death bed due to a physical problem (like pain due to an injury), that would not be a problem; he/she will still be born in a brahma realm.Of course, an Ariya jhana will never be lost. Even then one may not be able to get into jhana while on the death bed due to a physical problem.
The best example is Devadatta. He had attained not only anariya jhana but also super normal (iddhi) powers. But he lost all that once he started planning to take the life of the Buddha, and ended up in an apaya.
Yes. Thank you. I just revised the earlier post a bit. I was not referring to the baby being born in that first post.
When a baby is born, only the baby and the mother really suffer. Everyone else is happy.
Even the mother’s suffering is overcome by the mentally made-up “assada”: the fact that now she has her own child.
– Also, the release from the pain gives rise to happiness too. But during child birth it is suffering that she experiences.If a human can attain even an anariya jhana, that means he/she has a tihetuka patisandhi.
Now, when a human who can attain a jhana dies, he/she WILL BE born in a brahma realm (according to which jhanic state it is).
– Therefore, brahmas have tihetuka patisandhi, by definition.
– Cultivating jhana is an anantariya kamma (to the good side): upon death in this life one WILL be born in a brahma realm, even if he/she has leftover kammic energy in the present human bhava.Devas do not necessarily have tihetuka patisandhi, I believe. A human can be born in a deva realm because of meritorious deeds (especially giving).
y not: It is said that there were millions of devas and brahmas there to listen to that discourse, and many of them attained various stages of magga phala. Of course, a human would have seen only the five ascetics there.
– And it is said that (I cannot give a reference offhand. It is probably in the Vinaya Piṭaka) many devas can fit into a space of a hole in a needle. It is not possible for us to comprehend these things.Those higher beings are not visible to us, but if they want they can show themselves (they can even take the form of humans).
The Buddha did not have to assist them, even though he was of course aware of them (but probably not the five ascetics).
In a related story in the Tipitaka is the following account: One of those “unseen beings” explained the Dhamma that he learned from the Buddha to another who had not heard it. Their discussion took place over a house where a woman by the name of Kali was feeding her baby at night. She “heard” their whole conversation and attained the Sotapanna stage. She is supposed to be the second human who attained the Sotapanna stage that night (Ven. Kondanna was the first).
– Now it was not the case that those two beings conversed in a human language. It the the “sanna” that she was able to perceive; basically the ideas. Again, I am not sure exactly how that happens. The closest analogy I can think about is how we “know” what people in our dreams say.More details at: HEMAVATA SUTTA by Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw.
upekkha100: Good questions. I revised the post to address three of them. Also, I will soon publish a post on how tanha actually grows with one’s upadana via vaci sankhara.
” Is saṃkhittena a form of sankhara dukkha? Is the “sam” in saṃkhittena same as san?”
Yes. It could be connected to “san”. It is “san” + “khittena”, where is “san” is what we accumulate for sansaric journey; see, “What is “San”? Meaning of Sansāra (or Samsāra)“. “Khitta” is actions; see, “Does the First Noble Truth Describe only Suffering?“.
So, we create our own dukkha by doing things to accumulate “san” (with icca and tanha).
This is what is also meant by “panca upadanakkhandha” willingly embracing the pancakkhandha. We do this by generating vaci and kaya sankhara.
In most translations, though, “samkhittena” is taken to mean “in brief” or “in summary”.
So, both could be valid.
I think the confusion here may be removed by the following facts:
- A given “person” attains magga phala in the following sequence: Sotapanna Anugami, Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami, Arahant.
- Among DIFFERENT PEOPLE, it is not possible to say even an Anagami WILL attain Arahanthood before a Sakadagami or a Sotapanna, or that a Sakadagami WILL attain a higher magga phala before a Sotapanna.
- It is possible that even a normal human may attain the Arahantood before any other who may have attained a magga phala at or below the Anagami stage before him/her.
– For example, there are Anagamis (in those brahma realms that are reserved for Anagamis) who had attained the Anagami stage during Buddha Sasana of PREVIOUS Buddhas. During the lifetime of the Gotama Buddha, millions of people attained the Arahant stage. - Those time restrictions provide the MAXIMUM time it will take a person at a GIVEN intermediate stage of Nibbana to attain the Arahanthood. It does not mean a given person will take that much time. There have been some who went through all stages and attained the Arahanthood during a single discourse by the Buddha.
Does that resolve the issue, or are there other related issues that I did not see?
First, Siebe has written to me and confirmed that his post got deleted when he tried to revise it later. I think we had discussed this some time back. Please do not try to revise a post after about an hour. It WILL get deleted. That is how the forum is set up.
Upekkha100 said, “So does this mean anatta’s definition of “does not hold any ultimate truth” could be said differently as “does not hold any ultimate happiness/ultimate solution”.
Maybe it is time to take a step back and look at the big picture.
Anicca, dukkha, anatta are characteristics of the EXISTENCE in this world of 31 realms. Whatever we do to seek happiness within this existence WILL NOT work, we will ALWAYS end up in suffering (in the long term), and THEREFORE one will only become helpless.
– That last part is one version of the anatta nature: “one will only become helpless”.There is a second way to describe the anatta nature: At Buddha’s time, there were brahmins who believed that a human could get to the “atta” state, which basically meant a state that is ever-lasting, not subject to viparinama nature, and is the highest attainment. Some thought that such a state is there in the brahma world.
– The Buddha explained that such a state does not exist anywhere in the wider world of 31 realms, “i.e., “na atta” or “anatta”. The only such state of “atta” is Nibbana, which is not in this world.We can state anatta in a third way: No matter what we do to attain a permanent happiness in this world, it will be fruitless at the end. Therefore, all those efforts were made without realizing the true nature of this world, or the TRUTH about this world. That is really what is meant by “does not hold any ultimate truth”. That statement refers to ALL ACTIVITIES humans do when Buddha Dhamma is not known: the truth is not known. When someone is doing a foolish thing, we say “What he is doing is useless. He does not realize the truth”. It is in that sense we say this world is of anatta nature.
– Now, Buddha Dhamma can help one get to the “atta” state or Nibbana. But once it is attained, even Buddha Dhamma is of no use. Even though it is the only real truth, it has served its purpose. So, even Buddha Dhamma is without use AFTER attaining the Arahanthood.So, anatta nature is multi-faceted. One person may see one aspect, and another may see a different aspect.
I am glad to see that upekkha100 is trying hard to “get to the bottom of it”. Those are good questions. But we need to keep in mind that it becomes much easier to grasp these concepts when one actually starts practicing. I am not sure whether upekkha100 has started on that, or where he/she is on the Path. I do not know about that aspect regarding many people who post at the forum.
One’s practice starts with staying away from dasa akusala, and it is completed at the Arahant stage when one gets rid of micca ditthi (one of the dasa akusala) completely by fully comprehending Tilakkhana.
– It is important also to realize that micca ditthi mentioned above does not belong to the 10 types of micca ditthi that one must get rid of first in the mundane eightfold path; see, “Mahā Cattārisaka Sutta (Discourse on the Great Forty)“.upekkha100 said: “I think there may be some technical problems going on, maybe my full posts are not appearing and others’ comments are not fully appearing for me, I’ve seen others make similar comments before.”
I don’t think there are any technical problems. Please be specific.
However, I noticed today that Siebe seems to have posted a comment in the “General Forum”, but no post is there. Did you delete the post, Siebe?If anyone has a problem in posting, please send me an email ([email protected]) with the post and I will post it myself.
Regarding the “ultimate truth” point that upekkha100 is talking about:
This could be a problem with expressing one’s idea about “ultimate truth in this world”, “ultimate solution to the problem of suffering in this world” and “ultimate happiness”. The first two involve “this world of 31 realms”. The last is the end result or Nibbana.
upekkha100 said: “But as it was pointed out by Lal, it is Nibbana that is the ultimate truth. Therefore not even Buddha Dhamma is the ultimate truth”.
It would have been better if I said “Nibbana is the ultimate solution. Buddha Dhamma is the ultimate truth in this world“.
Nibbana is NOT in this world. We live in “this world”. To get to Nibbana, we need Buddha Dhamma, which is the ultimate truth in this world. But once one attains the Arahanthood, there is no need for Buddha Dhamma either. It has done its part.
This is why the Buddha said that once one attains the Arahanthood, one should give up any attachment to Buddha Dhamma too. He said it would be like carrying the boat after crossing a river using the boat.
upekkha100: Your first quote is not correct:
“1) “Hence Truths that deal with concepts that exist in reality in an ultimate sense eg. consciousness (citta), mental factors (cetasika). aggregates (khanda) are Ultimate or Absolute Truths.”There are 4 ultimate realities: citta, cetasika, rupa, and Nibbana; see, “The Grand Unified Theory of Dhamma – Introduction“.
The first 3 belong to this world, and the last one, Nibbana, is the ultimate truth.
There are no contradictions.
Thank you, Tien, for sharing with us your experience.
I or anyone else can neither confirm or deny anyone’s declaration. In the Maha Parinibbana Sutta, the Buddha stated that it is fine to declare one’s attaining of the Sotapanna stage, if one is confident of it. That is mainly for the benefit of others: to illustrate that it can be achieved.
On the other hand, one must be careful too. Declaring an attainment without actually having it can become an obstruction to the progress on the Path. If a bhikkhu does that he will no longer belong to the order of the bhikkhus. It is called a parajika or an offense.
I have talked about my progress from time to time. Even though I believe that I made it to the Sotapanna stage several years ago, I am still working to become free of the kama loka. Responsibilities with the “householder life” makes it harder, and even maintaining the website may be affecting the progress to some extent. I am trying to strike a balance. But each person is different. Some can make rapid progress, simply because they may have made progress in past lives.
I do believe that there are many with magga phala these days and some could be Anagamis or even higher (especially in Sri Lanka due to Waharaka Thero’s and his disciples’ efforts). We just don’t know.
Even if one is not certain about a specific magga phala, one can certainly discuss one’s progress, i.e., whether one has seen a significant change in one’s life. Some may have gotten rid some bad habits for sure. If one is willing to share such experiences, that will be beneficial to others: That Buddha Dhamma is not just a theory. One can truly experience the benefits.
P.S. This topic belongs in the “Personal Experiences” forum. I may move it there sometime, when I get a chance. Please look under that forum if it is no longer here.
y not: From that sutta: “So tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā rāgadosamohānaṃ tanuttā sakadāgāmī hoti, sakideva imaṃ lokaṃ āgantvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti.”.
It says a Sakadagami will come back just once to THIS LOKA (meaning kama loka. Anagami is never coming back to kama loka). However, a Sakadagami has much less kama raga/patigha compared to a Sotapanna, and thus is expected to be reborn only in a deva realm.
– A Sakadagami has removed vatthu kama (the desire to OWN things that give sense pleasures).
– An Anagami has removed both vatthu kama and kilesa kama (any desire for sense pleasures).
– A Sotapanna has both vatthu kama and kilesa kama.All three categories of Sotapanna will be born in the human world (manussa loka) one or more times.
The rebirth for a Sakadagami is also explained in, “The Way to Nibbana – Removal of Asavas” (see #2). I am sure I talked about this other posts, but do not remember offhand what those are.
To add to what SengKiat stated, we can see it from another way.
The ultimate truths are in the Four Noble Truths. The First Noble Truth says: As long as one is in this world, one will be subjected to suffering. The cause for that suffering is in the Second Noble Truth (cravings due to avijja), and the Third Noble Truth says that suffering can be ended by removing that cause (getting rid of both cravings and avijja), and the Forth Noble Truth explains the way to get there (the Noble Eightfold Path).
Let us look at how the Buddha summarized the First Noble Truth about suffering in his first sutta: Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta:
Idam kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkham ariyasaccam:
jātipi dukkhā, jarāpi dukkhā, byādhipi dukkho, maraṇampi dukkhāṃ, appiyehi sampayogo dukkho, piyehi vippayogo dukkho, yampicchaṃ na labhati tampi dukkhāṃ—saṃkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā.
Translated: Bhikkhus, What is the Noble Truth of Suffering?
“Birth is suffering, getting old is suffering, getting sick is suffering, dying is suffering. Having to associate with things that one does not like is suffering and having to separate from those things one likes is suffering. If one does not get what one likes, that is suffering – Doing worldly activities (samkittena) to get all those things one craves for (pancupadanakkhandha) is suffering.”
When one attains Nibbana, all future suffering will be stopped.
After explaining the Four Noble Truths, the Buddha declared that he has indeed attained that “ultimate unconditioned state of happiness” and the present life will be his last life:
In the middle of the sutta: “Ñāṇañca pana me dassanaṃ udapādi: ‘akuppā me vimutti, ayamantimā jāti, natthi dāni punabbhavo’”ti.”
Translated: “The knowledge and vision arose in me: ‘unshakable is the liberation of my mind. This is my last birth. There is no more renewed existence.’”
That statement says the outcome of the discovery of that knowledge. The solution to future suffering. It is the ending of the rebirth process.
In the next regular post, I will explain the importance of understanding pancupadanakkhandha (panca upadana khandha). When we crave for things in this world, that is pancupadanakkhandha. That is different from pancakkhandha.
Of course, attaining Nibbana (Arahanthood) is not easy, and in fact sounds scary at the beginning (to stop existence?). But the point is that existence IN THIS WORLD is filled with suffering. Even if one get births in deva/brahma realms with mostly happiness, that will not last, and one WILL be born in the apayas filled with suffering. One needs to get to the unconditioned state (that without causes) in order to attain the ultimate death-less state. All four thing that are stated as suffering in the verse above (birth, getting old, diseases, and death) are not there; see, “Nibbana“.
However, one needs to get there in a step-by-step way: “Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?“. Even though we should keep the ultimate goal in the back of our minds, our focus should be on making the next step in the Path. With each step in the right direction, we are getting closer to the ultimate happiness (and we can experience that too with niramisa sukha).
