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y not said, “If A hurts B, then it would be B’s turn to hurt A in this life or in a future one.”
It does not normally work that way, even though it can happen in some specific cases.
Especially in “samphassa ja vedana”, it is not due to a specific kamma. As the name says (“san” + “phassa” rhymes as samphassa), it arises due to “san” (lobha, dosa, moha) that is in one’s mind as one’s gati.
“Samphassa ja vedana” is explained in the post, “Vēdanā (Feelings) Arise in Two Ways“, as I mentioned earlier in the discussion.
It is imperative that one must understand the key concepts:
“Key Dhamma Concepts“. This is a general comment, not directed at anyone in particular. I have no way of knowing who knows how much.Johnny quoted from someone else: ““I dont understand how cravings or desires are evil..”
This is why it is important to learn and UNDERSTAND the meaning of Pali words and not just use English words.
The word “craving” is used inappropriately to translate Pali words like tanha, chanda, and kamaccanda.
What is bad is tanha: To get “attached” something bad via lobha, dosa, and moha.
On the other hand, chanda (which translated as craving and sometimes liking) is one of the satara iddhipada: chanda, citta, viriya, vimansa. In order to seek Nibbana, one needs to have chanda (liking or desire) for it. Again, one must see that this “desire” for Nibana is without lobha, dosa, moha.
Kamaccanda is “kama” + “icca” “anda” or becoming blind due to desire for sense pleasures (and thus tempted to do immoral things). The word “desire” is used commonly to translate kamaccanda and that could be problematic. “Defiled desire” is a better translation, but it may be awkward to use.
This is why it is better to just use the Pali word, especially if there is a possibility of ambiguity. The key is to see whether asobhana cetasika (bad mental factors) are involved, especially lobha, dosa, moha.
So, one must be able to know the meaning of the Pali word, and not just use apparent meaning of English words that are being used indiscriminately today.
@y not: “Lal said: ‘The mental pain that you talk about in the fourth paragraph is “samphassa ja vedana”. That is not due to previous causes’.”
I was talking in the context of kamma vipaka, meaning kamma done in previous lives. In particular, the physical body that arises due to kamma vipaka from previous lives.
Nothing happens without a cause. “Samphassa ja vedana” arises due to one’s defiled gati, and that did not just materialize at that moment. But if one can get rid of all defilements (i.e., become an Arahant), those “samphassa ja vedana” will stop arising from that moment. But an Arahant cannot get rid of the physical suffering due to one’s body until the death of the physical body. That is what I meant.
Y not said: “Why should someone suffer for so long, millions of years, and in intense, unimaginable agony for just one act, however odious, and however many and full of hatred in the mind the days that led to the crime.”
This is an important point: Kamma vipaka that can be experienced once born in a certain realm, is almost never due to just one act, even though one act is likely to act as the primary cause at the cuti-patisandhi moment.
When one is born in a certain realm due to a given primary kamma, that body can now receive many more kamma vipaka appropriate for that body.
We get this human body due to a good kamma done in a previous life. But once born a human, this human body is able to receive many other good and bad kamma vipaka that this physical body can “cope with” (. For example, a human body cannot experience good kamma vipaka that can be experienced with a finer deva body. It also cannot experience the harsh vipaka that can only be experienced with a body of a “hell being”. We may have both those kinds form the past. Unless one attains a magga phala all those can bring vipaka in the future when born in the appropriate realm. This is what is important to understand.
For those who like to dig deeper: samanantara determines what vipaka can be extracted from anantara: “Annantara and Samanantara Paccaya“.
P.S. Another important point: It is true that the kamma beeja grasped at the cuti-patisandhi moment determines the DURATION of the particular bhava. But we need to realize that a kamma beeja is almost never due to just one act, even though one act could act as the primary cause, for example an anantariya kamma. Usually, a kamma beeja has contributions from many similar kamma. One does an exceptionally bad act because, in general, one has such gati that have been cultivated over many lives. Kamma is complex. The Buddha said not to try analyze it in detail, because other than a Buddha cannot.
Hi Lang,
You said, “I can see that it’s possible to practice “swallowing one morsel of food” while eating, especially if I’m eating by myself..”
You should seriously think about how that is going to remove defilements from one’s mid.
I have written many posts discussing why concentrating on breathing in and out cannot remove defilements. Is this any different from that?
The first thing to do is to find the Tipitaka reference and see what it says. It is very dangerous to just follow someone’s instructions on how to meditate.
I think the true idea is to contemplate on the fact that death can come anytime, even while eating. So, one should really strive to do real vipassana (contemplate on Tilakkhana) at every possible moment.
Embodied said: “It’s possible to go back one or two rebirths (the closest ones to our actual rebirth) without abhinna powers.”
That is true. But normally, one can see past HUMAN lives only. That means this life cannot be the birth (jati) within this human bhava. Whoever can remember past lives, must have been born human within the current human bhava.
Suppose X was a deva in the previous bhava. So, if this is X’s first jati in this human bhava, X will not be able to remember his past life as deva.
But if X develops abhinna powers, X could see that past life as a deva.
By the way, this is how ancient Hindu yogis decided that life in Brahma realms lasts forever; They could see all lives up to that, but could not see any lives before that. That is because those brahma realms have very long lifetimes.
This is why the Baka brahma also told the Buddha, that his life was forever; see #12 of “Anidassana Viññāṇa – What It Really Means“. Because he also could not see a life before that (it was in the higher pabhassara realm).
A Buddha can see past lives without any limits.
These details may not be necessary. But the consistency of it all leads to confidence in Buddha Dhamma. What the Buddha taught was not speculation (like philosophers have their own theories today). He experienced all that.
Please do share your experience about past lives if you remember. Such personal experiences are always informative.
Hi Akvan,
As you said, the Buddha’s Enlightenment did not remove his bodily pains. The suffering that is removed at the Buddhahood (or Arahanthood) is the future suffering.The body that the Buddha had was a result of previous causes. Those causes had already yielded results and they cannot be fully stopped. Once a sankata arises due to causes, then that sankata (in this case the physical body) will run its course.
The mental pain that you talk about in the fourth paragraph is “samphassa ja vedana”. That is not due to previous causes. Once one attains Arahanthood, “samphassa ja vedana” is stopped too; see, “Vēdanā (Feelings) Arise in Two Ways“.
Of course “samphassa ja vedana” includes elation or “mental happiness” too. They are both mind-made at that time due to avijja one has at that time.
You said, “.. If one must believe in the 31 realms to see the truth about suffering it may not be very practical. Because if it were the case then we would need to try and prove the existence of such realms without any doubt before getting along on the path.”
You may want to think long and hard about that critical point. It is very clear that the 10 types of micca ditthi includes that view. Unless one realizes that there are other realms (especially apayas), then one may still not have removed micca ditthi. The whole point is that there is much suffering in future lives and most of it is in those lowest realms; see the comment that I just made in another discussion: “Micca Ditthi“.
The existence of other realms may not “provable” by today’s scientific standards. But when one comprehends Dhamma at deeper levels, one will realize the truth of that.
Let me give an example. When the Buddha said there are innumerable “world systems” (meaning uncountable planetary systems like our Solar system), there was no scientific proof. In fact, even 50 years ago, science knew about only a handful of planetary systems like ours. It is only within the past 10 years or so that scientists have accepted that there are an uncountable number of such planetary systems.
So, we need to find the truth WITHIN Buddha Dhamma. We cannot rely on science. This is a key point that I am trying to make. When one builds faith (not blind faith but faith based on one’s understanding of Dhamma), one does not need any outside “evidence”.
This is why the Buddha said, “the world has not seen this Dhamma before”. It is a Dhamma or a “world view” that is not described anywhere else. Trying to prove those concepts using scientific evidence would not work. Science has discovered only a fraction about our world and that is limited to knowledge about matter. It knows virtually nothing about the mind, as I explained in this new post (science says this is the only life that we have, which is ucceda ditthi).
Of course, it is up to each person to decide for himself.
Cubibobi (Lang) said: “..occasionally an average person asks me about “Buddhism”. I was concerned about consequences if I gave misinterpretations in what I say, as well as about the “teachers” in my group.”
It is not NECESSARILY teaching adhamma that gets one to trouble. Having micca ditthi is the REASON for rebirth in the apayas. Micca ditthi is removed in two stages: First one must remove the 10 types of micca ditthi. Then that makes it possible for one to remove the deeper layer by comprehending Tilakkhana. This has been discussed in many posts; see, for example,”Buddha Dhamma – In a Chart“.
We need to look at it this way. Most people have the perception that rebirth in the apayas can be avoided just by preventing from doing some specific things, for example by avoiding killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, gossiping, etc (mainly by avoiding the akusala done by the body and speech). That part is ESSENTIAL to get to the mindset to remove the three done by the mind: greed (abhijja), hate (vyapada), and especially micca ditthi (wrong views).
One becomes a Sotapanna by removing a big part of micca ditthi, and that is done understanding the true nature of this world, Tilakkhana. When that understanding comes, one is AUTOMATICALLY prevented from doing other 9 akusala to a great extent (the apayagami strength is removed).
If we look at the framework of Buddha Dhamma carefully, we will realize that what is NORMAL for any given living being is to be born in the apayas.
I know that is a scary thought. But that is where we all had spent much of our time in the past. This is why it is said, “dukkham bhayattena” which means, “dukha is to be feared”. Obviously this dukha or suffering is much worse than what anyone can experience in this human life. When one understands the real nature of the 31 realms, one would indeed get scared.
We all had been born in the apayas than in higher realms. The Buddha said that being born in the apayas is like someone always coming back home from trips to other cities or countries. So, the times a given living being spend outside the apayas are like the time we spend on trips.
I am not saying all this to scare people. But we need to know the truth. Just by ignoring the truth is not going to make it go away, which is the approach of many. In a way, we all have done that through an infinite number of rebirths. That is why we are still here in this world.
Therefore, a better way to look at this issue is to understand the ROOT CAUSES for one to be born in the apayas. I think the new series that I just started will help understand this “big picture” if one spends some time thinking about what is discussed there: “Buddha Dhamma for an Inquiring Mind – Part I“.
@Embodied and @y not:
As Embodied said, in the Sabba Sutta, the Budha defined the “sabba” or all for a given person as one’s 6 internal ayatana and 6 external ayatana (what is experienced by those 6 internal ayatana).
And that is basically one’s pancakkhandha; see, “Pancakkhandha or Five Aggregates – A Misinterpreted Concept“.
One can look at this a bit deeper, even though that is not critical. Since we all had been born in most of the 31 realms, memories from all those lives are with our pancakkhandha. Of course, we don’t remember them. But if one develops abhinna powers, then one can recall them.
Dr.Chakma said, “Both these stories say Alavaka Yakkha was ferocious and Buddha subdued him.”
That is true. As I explained they have “rough character qualities”. Again, Alavaka yaksa is a better word than Alavaka yakkha.
However, they don’t normally kill. Alavaka Sutta does not say he tried to kill a prince, and I did not see such an account in the link that you gave; however, I may have missed it because I do not have time to read the whole thing.
In general, it would save me a lot of time, if people can make it clear where a given quote is within a quoted source, or just copy the relevant text from the source and paste it in the comment, together with source.
1 and 2 are correct.
1 and 2 do not lead to 3. Sankhara by definition are thoughts that are defiled to varying degree. When they involve strong dasa akusala, they become abhisankhara.
You may want to read, “Sankhāra – What It Really Means“, and ask the question again.
From #3 of that post:
– Kaya sankhāra are in “conscious thoughts” that make our bodies move. Killing, stealing, and sexual misconduct are apunnabhi kaya sankhāra.
– Vaci sankhāra are in “conscious thoughts that we silently generate” and also those thoughts that lead to speech by moving the lips, tongue etc. Thinking about a Dhamma concept is a punnabhi vaci sankhāra. Hate speech is due to apunnabhi vaci sankhāra.
– On the other hand, mano sankhāra are in “unconscious thoughts” that arise automatically. We are not aware when they arise. They arise due to our gathi and can indicate our level of moha or avijja. Since they arise unconsciously, mano sankhāra are unlikely to be abhisankhāra that have strong kammic consequences.Please take time to formulate the question. Don’t just start writing and hit the submit button. If you don’t formulate the question right, you may not get the right answer. And I am having a hard time trying to understand what you are asking.
Maybe someone else can understand the question and answer.
@Embodied: Your question is not clear. What abhisankhara are you talking about?
@Dr.Chakma:
There are two kinds of Yakkhas:
– One kind are Yakkhas in the apayas.- The other kind are Catumaharijika devas. This is the lowest deva realm, and there are different types of devas there too. These actually should be called “Yaksa” (meaning “capable”) and not “Yakkha” (meaning “basically destroyers or killers with bad character”). But “Yaksa devas” also have some rough character qualities, just like there are people in certain parts of the world or even certain parts of a given country that have “rough character”. As I mentioned earlier, someone will have a mix of different gati, and thus there are good gati also mixed with bad gati.
Another good example are police men/women. They had cultivated a mix of good gati (very much like to keep law and order), but cannot tolerate bad behavior and may display “rough character” at times with those who do not abide by law. World is complex.
Alavaka Yaksa is of the second kind. They can comprehend Dhamma and attain magga phala.
I am not familiar with Jayamangala Asthagatha or that Alavaka Yaksa was about to kill a prince. Is there a link with that account?
@Tobias:
Those big animals like whales and elephants had been body builders/ politicians etc who think very highly of themselves. Of course, I am not saying all bodybuilders and politicians will becomes whales and elephants. But one can such mentality common among some of them.Those who are lazy and cultivate such thoughts (sankhara) are likely to be born snails, asuras, etc. These variations come from the mixing of various different gati.
Those very low lifeforms like worms (and other microscopic living beings) arise due to those who do very lowly things. Excess or deviant sexual tendencies may lead to births as worms, among other causes. Worms have both male and female reproductive organs. During sexual intercourse among earthworms, both sets of sex organs are used by both worms.
That is why there are innumerable variety of lifeforms. But we can guess some general trends. Many of Pali and Sinhala words for animals have these meanings embedded in the word itself (this is called “pada nirukti“).
For example, the Sinhala word for cow is “haraka”, which comes from “hara + ka”, where “hara” is “essence” or “goodness” and “ka” means destroy. They had intentionally and recklessly destroyed environment or common properties and now are paying back with their milk and meat.
By the way, bacteria is probably not sentient: “Beings that have no centralized nervous systems are not sentient. This includes bacteria, archaea, protists, fungi, plants and certain animals.”
That quote from: “What beings are not conscious“. I cannot say this article is 100% compatible with Buddha Dhamma. I just saw it. But the general trend seems to be correct.Good question, Embodied. To get an idea of how gati affect future bhava, let us consider the following gati:
-one who kills humans for pleasure (psychopaths) – worst niraya (hell) gati
-one who kills animals for pleasure – niraya gati (higher niraya realms)
-one who likes to enjoy sex by raping – niraya gati
-one who likes to have sex with inappropriate partners (outside marriage, children) – preta bhava, animal bhava
-one who indulges in excess sense pleasures (drugs, drinking, even over-eating) – preta bhava (higher preta realms). Those who are intensely engaged in sports, music, entertainment (and thus keep help others attached to sense pleasures) also preta bhava. This is a subtle point that may not be obvious.
-one who gains pleasure by acts that affect many (arsonists, those who recklessly damage environment by polluting waterways, etc) – usually cows, pigs, mules, chicken, etc who pay back with their milk, work, and lives (for meat).
-one who enjoy sense pleasures gained with legitimate means and do not over-indulge – human and deva bhava
-one who does meritorious deeds but without comprehension of Tilakkhana – human and deva bhava (better jati than the above category). Some of these will lead to tihetuka births that makes comprehension of Dhamma easier).
-one who does meritorious deeds but with comprehension of Tilakkhana – human and deva bhava (better jati than the above category; tihetuka births that makes comprehension of Dhamma easier). These are the ones who are at least Sotapanna Anugamis.
-one who likes to learn Dhamma concepts and “dig deeper” but without comprehension of Tilakkhana – human and deva bhava.
-one who likes to learn Dhamma concepts and “dig deeper” with comprehension of Tilakkhana – human and deva bhava. (better jati than the above category; tihetuka births that makes comprehension of Dhamma easier). These are the ones who are at least Sotapanna Anugamis.
-one who cultivates anariya rupavacara jhana – rupa bhava (16 rupavacara realms)
-one who cultivates anariya arupavacara jhana – arupa bhava (4 arupavacara realms)Of course, those are just general guidelines. There are innumerable gati when getting down to details. But we just need an idea about the general trends.
It is always god to keep in mind “upadana paccaya bhava” and also “pati icca leading to sama uppada”: What one enjoys/likes is likely to lead to corresponding bhava.You all can add to this list other tendencies people have, and what kinds of bhava could result from such tendencies. This is a good meditation subject. This is what is described by Paticca Samuppada.
@Donna: Yes. I should have said it a bit differently.
What I meant was that the Noble version of samma ditthi LEADS one to be free of cravings. When one starts comprehending Tilakkhana, one starts losing ditthi vipallāsa, and it is removed at the Sotapanna stage. However, even then one still has sanna vipallasa and citta vipallasa, which will be removed at higher stages; see, “Ditthi, Saññā, and Sankhāra – How They Relate“.
So, I should have said, “therefore, the Noble version of samma ditthi will lead one to be free of cravings, and one on the Noble Path does not have ditthi vipallāsa, and that is the first factor in the Noble Eightfold Path”.
