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“still we can come to a kind of experience which is not defiled, right? Then in the seeing there is only the seeing, in the hearing only the hearing etc. There are no likes or dislikes or even a subject/object split..”
When we see an object, whether we generate likes/dislikes depends on the object AND our gati.
One may not generate any like/dislike if the object is of no interest. We see so many things in a given day, but like or dislike only a fraction of them.
However, if we do experience like or a dislike, that happens very fast. It happens with mano sankhara, due to our gati automatically; see, my response to “Difference between Tanha and Upadana“.
It is a good question. When one really understands the difference one can see that eventual result of one getting attached AND committing kamma happens in two steps.
As we discussed many times, we get “attached” to something AUTOMATICALLY based on our gati. These first arise as mano sankhara. This will happen as long as we have tanhā (either via either via kama raga or patigha; avijja is present in both cases). We automatically get attracted; see, “Tanhā – How We Attach Via Greed, Hate, and Ignorance“.
Now, as soon as we becomes aware of this “attachment” to something, we have the ability to be mindful and think about its consequences and move away from it. We can do this at the early vaci sankhara stage; see, “Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra“.
On the other hand, if we just “go with the flow” and go along enjoying this sense attraction, that is what is called “upādāna“. It basically means “pulling it closer” (“upa” + “ādāna”, where “upa” means “close” and “ādāna” means “pull”).
So, basically do not have control over the “tanhā” or “initial attachment” step. It happens with mano sankhara that arise due to our gati.
But if we are mindful, we can immediately become aware of it at the vaci sanhara stage (where we are just thinking to ourselves about this sense input, even before speaking out loud about it), we CAN stop the upādāna step, i.e., we can decide not to “pull it closer”.
For example, if we see an attractive person, we may automatically start looking at him/her. But once we become aware of it, we can look away, and start thinking about something else.
In another extreme example, a person who is trying to control anger, may start talking back to someone who just said something harsh. But as soon as realizing that one is going back to the old habit, one can even stop in the mid-sentence.
When we start controlling the upādāna step, our gati will slowly change. Then, with time, the first step of “tanhā” will reduce, and eventually go away.
That is the basis of Anapana and Satipatthana meditations.
We also remember that in Paticca Samuppada, it is “..vedana paccaya tanha, tanha paccaya upadana..”. So, tanha comes first, and then upadana.
This is a very complex subject.
But I think the key point is that we NEVER experience a single citta.
In a pandvara citta vithi there are 17 citta. Then it is followed immediately by three manodvara citta vithi; see, “Citta Vithi – Processing of Sense Inputs“.Then if the subject is of interest, there will be many many more sequences of the above in rapid succession. Millions of them can occur in a split second.
It takes at least 10 milliseconds (hundredth of a second) for us to register a picture in our mind according to scientists; see #7 of “Citta and Cetasika – How Vinnana (Consciousness) Arises“.
So, what we experience is the cumulative effect of millions of citta vithi.
We NEVER experience the cakkhu vinnana that arises first. By the time we have the experience, they are contaminated due to our gati. What we experience is vinnanakkhandha, not citta or even vinnana.
Yes. A Sotapanna Anugamai belongs to the Sangha. That is the key point. Someone with a dvi-hetuka birth cannot become a part of the Sangha, because the level of wisdom (panna) for a dvi-hetuka birth is not enough to comprehend Tilakkhana (and the asubha and viparinama nature).
It is important to realize that “a given lifestream” can grasp very different bhava even in consecutive cuti-patisandhi moments. It is just how kamma beeja “line up” for the next bhava at the next cuti-patisandhi moment; see “What Reincarnates? – Concept of a Lifestream“.
For example, Ven. Moggallana was born in the niraya (lowest realm in apayas) in a recent life. But once his anantariya kamma (killing his parents) was paid off significantly, he was born with not only a tihetuka birth, but also to become a chief disciple of the Buddha. Of course, there was a “left-over” bit of that strong kamma, that led to getting beaten up and leading to a tragical death. Kamma is very complex.
Not only that, but Ven. Moggallana was born in the niraya (hell) in relatively recent times (before that last one), because he had been the Mara Devaputta during Buddha Kakusandha and harassed that Buddha. This story is in the Maratajjaniya Sutta (MN 50). A decent translation is at: “Maratajjaniya Sutta“.
Of course, we know that a birth in the niraya is much worse than a birth in animal or peta realms.
Therefore, having a dvi-hetuka birth does not mean one is not close to Nibbana. This is why we should strive to the fullest especially since it is very difficult to distinguish between dvi-hetuka and ti-hetuka births.
An aside: This is also why it does not make sense to think there a “self”. However, as long as one has specific gati that can lead to rebirth in good or bad realms, it is not possible to say “there is no self” either; each person is different. This is a deeper point.
“.. daydreaming about pretty girls or delicious food (in my mind they’re not much different). The latter are a lot more difficult to deal with, not because they’re any harder to catch or end but because a) I really want to get lost in these greedy thoughts, b) that’s how I’ve always “stopped” hateful thoughts. I realize now that’s counter-productive (the greed will just turn to hate when I don’t get whatever I’m fantasizing about) but it’s still a pain.”
This is a really critical point.
“Kama raga” or craving for sense pleasures is intensified by constantly thinking about them (vaci sankhara). Most people do not understand this, but you seem to be getting this point.For example, suppose one stops eating candy bars in an effort to get out of that habit. But if he keeps thinking about it, then that habit will never go away.
Of course, most people do this in sexual situations. They do not realize how addictive that is. The key to get rid of such habits is to find an alternate “focus point” for the mind, i.e., to find an alternative thing to work on or think about: “How Habits are Formed and Broken – A Scientific View“.
A powerful technique is to think about the bad consequences of keeping that bad habit, i.e., keep “day dreaming” about it.
Another is generating hateful thoughts (still vaci sankhara) about other people. Even if one does not say a single bad thing to that person, generating such hateful thoughts has the same effect. Those will also lead to similar kamma vipaka, as if one said those things out loud: “Correct Meaning of Vacī Sankhāra“.
You seemed to have read this post. I am emphasizing this for the benefit of others who may not have read it.
I am glad to see that you are making progress. The hardest is to get started. Once you pick up some speed, it will get much better.
Hello Eirc,
Yes. Your chart makes sense based on your accounts.
You are making an intense effort. While one really needs to make an effort, too much of it can be a burden to the mind. Let me give an example from the Tipitaka.
One time a musician by the name of Sona became a bhikkhu. He was trying very hard to get to magga phala, but could not make much progress. Eventually, he became discouraged and came to the Buddha to say that he was giving up and going to disrobe. He said, that he thought he just did not have enough wisdom to make it.
But the Buddha could see that Sona was capable of becoming an Arahant. He also knew that Sona played the violin in his lay life. He asked Sona: “What would happen if you have the strings too right when you were playing the violin?’. Sona said that it would not yield the right sound. Then the Buddha asked: “What would happen if you have the strings too loose when you were playing the violin?’. Sona said that it would sound dull if the strings were too loose, and that he had to get them tightened “just right” to get proper sound.
So the Buddha told Sona that he was trying too hard. That Sona should not totally give up, but must find a balance. Sona understood and went on to attain the Arahanthood.So, there is a danger of “burning out” if one tries too hard and become disappointed. Furthermore, some people say, “I will give 100% for such and such a time period and if that will not work I will give up”. Both those are wrong approaches.
– One should find “the middle way”.When you can feel the mind “heating up”, take a break and may be listen to soothing music, read a novel, or listen to sutta chanting; whatever that makes you relax. Take a walk, or do some exercise. Mind can take in only so much at a time. In fact, it is a great idea to exercise whenever possible. This could be just me, but if I don’t exercise for a few days, I run out of energy and don’t feel good.
– Whatever you do, don’t turn to loud music or video games. That will make it worse.y not said: “What is it that I am missing here? I apparently do not see that you addressed this in your reply:..”
Apparently, I did not read your comment carefully. I thought you had understood. If something is not clear, it is better to ask a question, rather than to make a statement. I have said this to you before too. I cannot miss it, if a direct question is asked.
y not asked: ” How are there eight here when 4 (the 4 Magga) exist only for the duration of a chitta?”
That is the whole point. A Sotapanna Anugami HAS NOT HAD a magga citta yet.
Having a “magga citta” moment is different from being on the path (magga) to become a Sotapanna.
To put it in another way: A “magga anugami” may be a better word. That means one who is following the path to get to the “magga” moment.
That is all I can say. I cannot explain that any better. Please read my comments and the post in question carefully. Then refer to any of those statements and ask a direct question.
Regarding the quotation that Akvan gave from the post, I just revised that sentence to make it more precise: “Thus when one gets into the Sōtapanna magga citta, for example, one receives the Sōtapanna phala in the very next citta,..”.
I also added #3 from my post above to that post (new #2) to make it more clear ( https://puredhamma.net/three-levels-of-practice/sotapanna-stage-of-nibbana/sotapanna-anugami-and-sotapanna/ ):
The citta vithi for a magga phala is discussed at the end of the post, “Citta Vithi – Processing of Sense Inputs“:
B B B “BC BU MD P U A G Pa Fr Fr” B B BIn other words, a Sotapanna Anugami is getting closer to the “change of lineage” or G. The earlier stages of P, U, A, may be reached gradually. Once that level of comprehension is complete, one makes that transition (G), completes the lokottara kamma, and immediately receives the phala.
Akvan said:” If a person who is striving to comprehend thilakkana and working towards becoming a sotapanna is a sotapanna anugami shouldn’t a person who has already reached the sotapanna stage automatically become a sakadagami anugami?”
That is essentially correct. But technically, a Sotapanna is not called a “Sakadagami Anugami” unless he/she is making an effort to get to the Sakadagami stage.
Yes. The explanation of y not is correct.
Hello Akvan,
- We can think of it this way. Nibbana is attained in four steps (Sotapanna, Sakadagami,..). At each step one comprehends Tilakkhana (and asubha nature) to a significant level. Magga citta is basically when one really grasps this “real nature” at a given level, and that is completing a kamma. One gets the vipaka (or the result of that kamma) in the very next citta.
– This is a citta niyama (a universal law). All four “lokottara kamma” have immediate results, in the very next citta. - Sotapanna Anugami has not yet attained a magga or a phala citta. He/she has heard the correct Tilakkhana and may have some understanding. But that understanding has not yet reached the “tipping point”; see, “Sotapanna Anugami and a Sotapanna“.
- The citta vithi for a magga phala is discussed at the end of the post, “Citta Vithi – Processing of Sense Inputs“:
B B B “BC BU MD P U A G Pa Fr Fr” B B B
In other words, a Sotapanna Anugami is getting closer to the “change of lineage” or G. The earlier stages of P, U, A, may be reached gradually. Once that level of comprehension is complete, one makes that transition (G), completes the lokottara kamma, and immediately receives the phala.
Hello Eric,
Yes. It may backfire if you try to make drastic changes too quickly. These things take time to heal.
Even the drugs may need to be reduced gradually. So, your doctors may be doing the right thing.
you are an intelligent person. You will overcome these problems over time. Just have perseverance.
Siebe: When you post things like this, please make sure to include at least a reference to the Pali version.
P.S. Thanks for sending the Pali link: Sāṇavāsīthera Petavatthu
Yes. That translation is good enough to give the basic idea.
The idea is the same as I explained above. When food is offered those types of petas can get food. When clothes are donated and merits are transferred, they can get clothes, etc.
As I explained above, there are many things that are not discernible to us, i.e., such phenomena do not happen in the human realm.
You may know about the sutta where a silver mansion appeared in a deva realm for Anathapindika, when he built and dedicated the Jetavanaramaya for the Buddha and Sangha. That was even before he died. So, the merits of that giving gave results immediately.
I would not get into these things too much. There is “no end”, and it can throw people off the main goal. This is what happens to some people who get interested in jhana. They get trapped. But of course, jhanas are not bad, if they come naturally.
It is better to spend the time in contemplating Tilakkhana and asubha nature of this world.
What Janussoni asked: “..Dānāni dema, saddhāni karoma: ‘idaṃ dānaṃ petānaṃ ñāti¬sālo¬hi¬tā¬naṃ upakappatu, idaṃ dānaṃ petā ñātisālohitā paribhuñjantū’ti. Kacci taṃ, bho gotama, dānaṃ petānaṃ ñāti¬sālo¬hi¬tā¬naṃ upakappati; kacci te petā ñātisālohitā taṃ dānaṃ paribhuñjantī”ti?
Dāna is giving. Actually, in the context of the sutta what was done in those days was to give foods to yogis and then give merits of that to petas. It does not make sense to translate dāna in this context as “gifts”.
Paribhuñjati or bhunjati means eating, especially in this context.
The sutta makes that very clear in the paragraph on the petas: “So kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā pettivisayaṃ upapajjati. Yo petti¬vesa¬yi¬kānaṃ sattānaṃ āhāro, tena so tattha yāpeti, tena so tattha tiṭṭhati, yaṃ vā panassa ito anup¬pavec¬chanti mittāmaccā vā ñātisālohitā vā, tena so tattha yāpeti, tena so tattha tiṭṭhati. Idaṃ kho, brāhmaṇa, ṭhānaṃ yattha ṭhitassa taṃ dānaṃ upakappatī”ti.”
It specifically says food or ahara for the petas.
This is the problem of mindlessly translating suttas, without paying attention to the message conveyed.
There are many things about this complex world, that we will not be able to fully comprehend. How can food offered to yogis can materialize as food for petas? It is not that different from how pattidana/punna anumodana works. Most of those yogis were highly moral and had cultivated abhinna powers too; so, there is definitely merits gained by such offerings of food.
Siebe said: “The Buddha states there are impossible places, i.e. places of rebirth in which the death apparantly cannot partake of our gifts offered. It seems only rebirth as a hungry ghost (peta) is a possible place. They can partake of offerings but other rebirths seem to be impossible places.”
This translation does not adequately express the true idea of that sutta. Janussoni brahmana asked the Buddha: “ Bhante, you know that we brahmans make offerings, saying, ‘May this food be enjoyed by our dead relatives; may our dead relatives accept this food.’ Now, Bhante, can our dead relatives actually accept this food?”
So, what the Buddha explained was that only those relatives who are born in certain peta realms (hungry ghosts) can actually accept and consume that food. In fact, the Buddha said that those particular petas get their food only that way. If they do not get such offerings, they just go hungry.
On the other hand, beings in other realms cannot get their food that way. For example, one born as a hell-being, an animal, a human, or a deva cannot get their food from such offerings, because that is not how they get their food.
However, this has nothing to do with giving merits (pattidana/punna anumodana). All beings can benefit from that; see, “Transfer of Merits (Pattidāna) – How Does it Happen?“.
@ y not: Sorry I missed your post.
Paying back previous debts is very important. These connections prevail though many lives, and can block the path to Nibbana.
For example, there is a Tipitaka story about two bhikkhus who meditated together. They could not concentrate because each one keep seeing a huge pile of rice in the mind. Finally, they came to the Buddha, who explained that they had been together as two beggars in a far back life; one didn’t have anything to eat one night and asked for some rice from the other. He promised to pay it back, but died overnight. That was the debt waiting to be paid. So, the Buddha asked the monk who was the donor in that previous life to focus on the other and to say that he is forgiven. Once that was done, those “mental rice piles” disappeared from their minds and they were able to proceed.
Here a question may come up: how could it be bad for the donor, since he did a good deed? However, the donor in this particular case did not “donate” in the true sense (i.e., with no attachment to that cup of rice). Rather, it was a loan that he wanted the other to pay back. This is why it is important to “give” in the true sense giving.
When one is doing metta bhavana, one is paying off all such previous debts. Even mundane metta bhavana is good. As one’s comprehension of anicca, dukkha, anatta, asubha nature, that will increasingly become Ariya metta bhavana. In other words, power of the javana citta will get stronger with increased understanding.
This is the mindset that Tien had when he started contemplating on an ant in his earlier post. When one realizes that all beings are “in the same boat”, and are subjected to this sansaric suffering, one’s mind will generate high javana power.
P.S. It is important to realize that not each and every little debt is going to affect one like in the above example. We know that there are many examples where people attained even Arahanthood in the same life after killing people (Angulimala is a good example); that is a huge debt! So, the story given above is not a typical case. Mind issues can be very complex.
Tien said: “When look back to the experience I describe here, I can tell it’s Sakadagami Phala, it’s hard to differentiate between this and Anagami Phala, only later time when you will know for sure..”
Yes. Getting rid of kama raga anusaya is harder. This is why we all have been trapped in the rebirth process for so long. A Sakadagami does not have any desire to “own” those things that provide sense pleasure, but still have cravings to enjoy (some of) them. In fact, I have been in this stage for some time now.
I can clearly see that I have no desire to “enjoy an alcoholic beverage”, to a watch a movie, listen to music, etc (Of course, I can do any of them if I feel like, but I just do not feel like doing them). I have clearly seen not only the uselessness but also the dangers in them. I am easily abstaining from all other sense pleasures as well. It is not that I have to make an effort to do that. But such thoughts (vaci sankhara) keep popping to the mind occasionally, probably due to previous gati, as Tien mentioned. But the frequency of that is reducing.
P.S. Of course, I can only know what I have attained.But there seem to be at least several making good progress.
- We can think of it this way. Nibbana is attained in four steps (Sotapanna, Sakadagami,..). At each step one comprehends Tilakkhana (and asubha nature) to a significant level. Magga citta is basically when one really grasps this “real nature” at a given level, and that is completing a kamma. One gets the vipaka (or the result of that kamma) in the very next citta.
