[Lal]

Regarding conception (how a gandhabba takes hold of a zygote to become a live embryo), it is discussed in detail in the post:
What does Buddha Dhamma (Buddhism) say about Birth Control?

[Lal]

That seems to have come from your heart, Tien.

The Buddha said that one should see dukha as acute suffering like being pierced by a spear, mundane sukha as suffering, and neutral feeling as anicca. (for one pursuing the Anagami stage).

[Lal]

I highly recommend the sutta reference provided by Christian. There is much to learn from that sutta, and it is a good translation.

Regarding what upekkha said: “Lal had said there are two types of asuras”: There are two types of asuras:
– one is called vinipatha Asuras. They belong to the apayas or the four lowest realms.
– The other is Asura Devas. They are in a Deva realm.

Those normally cannot affect humans, but more powerful devas, such as the Mara Devaputta, can affect humans.

None of them can really affect those who have strong faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha.

[Lal]

upekkha100: I fixed your link.
Here is a step-by-step way to add a link (this is also in the General Information and Updates, where I provide links to new posts):

1. Open the web page on a new browser window. Copy the title of the post and paste it in the posting where you want to put the link.
   Now go back and copy the URL of the web page.

2. Come back to the posting, highlight the title and click the “link” button on the format panel.

3. A new window will open up and paste that copied link to the “URL” slot. Also, select “Open link in a new tab”, and click “Add Link” button at the bottom.

4. This way, one reading the post will be able to open the post in question in a new window, so that he/she can go back and forth between the post and the web page in question.

Hopefully, that should work. Please let me know if does not.

Regarding the questions:
“1) Is this initial uncontaminated vedana the amisa upekkha vedana?”

No. No one basically “experiences” the first “citta” stage in the “citta, mano, manasan…” steps. As I said in another reply, these descriptions are from Abhidhamma, where the Buddha provided detailed explanations. That is actually what happens, but anyone other than Buddha cannot actually see these steps. The mind goes through this contamination process within a billionth of a second.

“2) Niramisa upekkha vedana is supposed to be the vedana experienced by Ariyas. Other than the anariya/Ariya aspect, what is the difference between amisa upekkha vedana and niramisa upekkha vedana?”

Amisa upakkha vedana is the “neutral feeling” felt by a normal human. It can be, and it is at most times, contaminated with avijja. One just does not know the “reality of that particular situation”.

“3) What would the initial uncontaminated vedana that arises in a Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami be called? Would it be amisa upekkha or niramisa upekkha or something else?”
That is a very hard to question to answer. All we can say is that the mental state would be more and more purified as one gets to higher magga phala.
– An Arahant would be the closest to the “manasan” state, where one just recognizes who it is or what it is, but does not have ANY attachments.

“4) Am I wrong to think that out of those 9 vedana, Arahants would have only 5 out of 9 of those vedana: sukha, dukha, upekkha, niramisa sukha, and niramisa upekkha vedana? I’d think they would have even eliminated the niramisa dukha vedana?”

An Arahant would have the sukha, dukha, upekkha that arise from kamma vipaka. – An Arahant can experience the jhanic experiences.
– Ohter than that, it is niramisa upekkha vedana, a neutral mindset.

[Lal]

Ito satta tato satta (seven there and seven here),
saṃsārāni (in rebirth process) catuddasa (fourteen)

OR, Seven there and seven here, in all fourteen rebirths.

Also, I think “rebirth” is a better word than “transmigration”. The latter is used more with reincarnation, a Hindu concept:
What Reincarnates? – Concept of a Lifestream

[Lal]

Either Satagiri or Hemavata MUST have been a Sotapanna for Lady Kali to attain the Sotapanna stage by listening to their discussion.

I do not have time to read the document. But something appears to be wrong with the above extractions from that document.

[Lal]

My statements are based on what happens in the mind per Abhidhamma.

However, since these processes happen very fast, one may not (and actually does not) actually experience the “neutral vedana” due to the initial response by the mind.

This is an important point. The question is legitimate. I added a statement to that post to make it clear.

[Lal]

Hi Akvan:

As I said earlier: “But that COULD take more than seven jati or births within those seven bhava. There is no stated limit to number of jati within a given bhava.”

There are only two bhava involved here, 7 births in each bhava. That is what is meant by: “..Seven from here, seven from there”.

He was born a human 7 times before being born in the deva realm. It appears that he died very early in each of those. Even if one lives for a day that a birth.

Then he was had a cuti-patisandhi transition to the deva bhava. Those latter 7 births were within the same deva realm. Of course, there is no gandhabba state or going into a womb in the deva realm, so when a deva dies — and born in the same realm — that deva seems to just to be born in a different “location”.
– So, there had been only one bhava change (i.e., cuit-patisandhi).

[Lal]

There is some information relevant to lay people in the subsection “Greetings”, in the following article:
The Buddhist Monk’s Discipline: Some Points Explained for Laypeople

[Lal]

From SN 25.1: “. .abhabbo ca tāva kālaṃ kātuṃ yāva na sotāpattiphalaṃ sacchikaroti.”

The key word is “tāva kālaṃ kātuṃ” or “time expiration”. Many people translate it as “time expiration for the current physical body”, but it could mean “time expiration for the human bhava”. In either case, it is a negligible time in the samsaric time scale.
– One will not be reborn in the apayas.

[Lal]

upekkha100: Yes. What you stated is correct.

On the last one, the sequence given in the sutta is: kāyānupassanā, vēdanānupassanā, cittānupassanā, and dhammānupassanā.

However, one can actually do all of them at the same time. Being mindful involves first three, and that can be done anytime.

Dhammānupassanā is best to be done when one can contemplate at a quiet time.

[Lal]

Sotapanna Anugami is also a Noble person, one of the “attha purisa puggala”, or the “eight Noble persons”.

So, a Sotapanna Anugami must have a tihetuka birth.

[Lal]

Vedana and sankhara and two different things.

In the five aggregates we have: rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara,and vinnana.

As you pointed out earlier, vedana and sanna are mano sankhara. So, they are part of sankhara, but they are separated from vaci and kaya sankhara because they (vedana and sanna) arise with each and every citta.

So, vedana is very different from vaci and kaya sankhara.

I think it will become clear if you had read the following post:
Vedana (Feelings)

The website is getting bigger, so it may be hard to figure out where to start.

Anyway, let us keep the discussion going, because these are important issues. I can see you are making a strong effort, so I want to help you figure it all out.

[Lal]

Mahendran said: “It seems and sounds like an extraordinary experience to have attained a jhana.”

Actually — for those people who had attained jhana in recent human lives — it is not that hard to get into (anariya) jhana.

It is like once one learns how to ride a bike, that habit stays. Even if one does not ride a bike for many years, it would be easy to do.

[Lal]

Upekkha100 said: “As per MN44, vedana is in mano sankhara. Mano sankhara is defined as vedana and sanna” AND “And mano sankhara(vedana/sanna) are automatic/unconscious due to our gati, thus we don’t have conscious control to stop this step.”

Those are correct. Vedana and sanna are universal cetasika and they arise in each and every citta.

Upekkha asked: “ Is samphassa ja vedana(somanassa/domanassa) in mano sankhara or vaci sankhara? I’d think mano sankhara, but the reason why I’m not sure is because it has been described as what sounds like vaci sankhara to me.”

Samphassa ja vedana are initially mano sankhara. They also arise according to one’s gati. That is critically important to see. An Arahant does not have samphassa ja vedana.

Upekkha asked: “The part about stopping samphassa ja vedana-this does not mean to actually stop the feeling itself right? Because we can’t help it, it is automatic and super fast. Does this mean more along the lines to stop the automatic samphassa ja vedana(mano sankhara) from escalating into vaci sankhara/kaya sankhara?”
One cannot stop samphassa ja vedana as they arise. Just like in getting rid of tanha, stopping samphassa ja vedana REQUIRES Satipatthana/Anapana (via gradually reducing/getting rid of one’s gati).

Does that make it clear? If not, we can discuss more. It is important to clarify these issues, since they are the basis of Satipatthana/Anapana.

P.S. I just revised the post in question and gave it a new title, “Vēdanā and Samphassa Jā Vēdanā – More Than Just Feelings“.

Also read: “Vēdanā (Feelings) Arise in Two Ways“.

[Author]

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