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I cannot comment on that. I don’t have time to read their 350 pages of “central teachings”.
However, it is likely to be on key suttas, so could be fine (If the translations are good).
I just don’t know what is in there.
Yes. Even the Buddha could taste “sweetness in sugar”, etc. Those “kama guna” are indeed associated with each bhava; see, “Kāma Guna, Kāma, Kāma Rāga, Kāmaccanda“.
A “bad gati” would be to have CRAVING for them. When one attains Nibbana, one gets rid of lobha, dosa, moha. That is all one gets rid of.
P.S. 8/10/23:
The “sweetness in sugar,” etc., comes from “kāma saññā” and NOT from “kāma guna.” I will explain that in upcoming posts. Thanks for pointing this out, LDF!
I see. But you don’t refer to that as “reverse order patticca samuppada (PS)”.
The annamanna paccaya is at work only for the first several steps in PS.
It does not come into play starting with: “salāyatana paccayā phassa” step.
I guess I had not specifically mentioned that in the post on annamanna paccaya.
Will add a statement to that post sometime today.The reverse order of patticca samuppada is to how how the suffering ends when the root cause of avijja is removed.
Avijja nirodha sankhara nirodha
sankhara nirodha vinnana nirodha
.
‘
Jati nirodha jara, marana, soka, parideva,… nirodha.M 148 Chachakka Sutta (and “contact”) are also discussed in the post:
“Difference between Phassa and Samphassa“.Please provide a link to the sutta when you quote a sutta.
If possible provide a link to the Pali version too.
That will make it easier for others to take a look at the sutta and comment on the question.
How to provide a link is described step-by-step here:
“How to Reply to a Forum Question““But can’t we say that seeing happiness in what is suffering, seeing attractiveness in what is repulsive, seeing self in what is not self (like the body seeing as ‘I am this body’) and seeing permanence in what is impermanent is in fact wrong view too?”
Yes. In the end they are related to the 10 types of wrong views you listed.
What do you think “seeing happiness in what is suffering” means? (or the other ones that you mentioned). Let us start with some examples you can think about.
“careless attention” is used in there for the translation of “yoniso manasikara”.
Here is the full sutta:
“Nāhaṃ, bhikkhave, aññaṃ ekadhammampi samanupassāmi yena anuppannā vā micchādiṭṭhi uppajjati uppannā vā micchādiṭṭhi pavaḍḍhati yathayidaṃ, bhikkhave, ayonisomanasikāro. Ayoniso, bhikkhave, manasi karoto anuppannā ceva micchādiṭṭhi uppajjati uppannā ca micchādiṭṭhi pavaḍḍhatī”ti.The basic idea stated in the sutta is:
“Bhikkhus, unarisen (new) wrong views arise and arisen wrong views become worse due to none other than ayoniso mansaikara“.
The critical thing to realize is that ayoniso manasikara is much more deeper than than just “careless attention”.
Ayoniso manasikara is of course the opposite of yoniso manasikara.
A given person with no comprehension of Dhamma/adhamma (what is moral/what is not) can pay his/her utmost attention and still have those problems: arising of new wrong views and the growth of existing wrong views.
Yoniso manasikara explained at: “Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala“.
One should always be mindful of not doing dasa akusala, and learn correct Buddha Dhamma. That is the closest to acting with yoniso manasikara. As one makes progress, one will have better yoniso manasikara.
Siebe said: “Can we really know the conditions for such breaktrough moments?”
That is true. There are many things that we cannot really explain with our limited understanding. Only a Buddha can “see” these things in full detail. For example, we will never figure out why there are only 17 citta in citta vithi. That is just how Nature works. Even the Buddha just DISCOVERED such laws.
– Another factor is that full understanding of a certain issue may come from a different angle, while comprehending a different subject.
– In any case, it is not bad to try to examine a given concept in depth. It is called “vimanasa”.However, I think I have given a reasonable explanation to the key question about why listening can be more powerful than reading the same words (and the words uttered by an Ariya can have a stronger effect than the same words uttered by a normal person, even with recordings).
– We cannot find explanations for each and every issue in Abhidhamma. It is not possible to write everything down. In fact, the Tipitaka was transmitted orally for several centuries before it was written down. I am amazed that it has just enough information, and most of the time we can fill in the blanks.
– If we fill-in-the-blanks with wrong stuff, that will become obvious sooner or later, when compared with another issue. If so, we need to take care of that, and that is how we make progress.
– That is what is meant by “self-consistency”. Everything in the Tipitaka is self-consistent.@Tobias:
You are right. I have revised #11 on that post as follows:“11.Now let us consider the consequences of sankhāra in this life, that we mentioned in #6 above. Suppose a teenager starts associating with bad friends and start drinking alcohol. Initially, he does not even like the taste of it, i.e., he may be generating a dōmanassa vēdanā due to the taste of alcohol. But with the insistence of those friends he continues drinking.”
“Then he makes a habit (gati) of it, begins to perceive the taste as a sōmanassa vēdanā, and starts making sankhāra about drinking. Even while in the middle of some other task, he starts thinking about the next party where he can drink, and what types of drinks there will be and so on.
Now “sankhāra paccayā viññāna” step in the paticca samuppāda leads to making a “new viññāna for drinking”. The more he thinks about such parties and generate those sōmanassa vēdanā, the more viññāna, nāma rupa, etc that he makes for such “drinking events”.
And the stronger that “viññāna for drinking” gets, the more he will be thinking about it (making more sankhāra). Then the habit is strengthened; see, “How Habits are Formed and Broken – A Scientific View”.I may have made similar mistakes in other posts. Thanks for finding them for me.
You said: “Obviously, an Arahant also tastes the sweetness of sugar. Does that count as a “sukha vedana”? May be this needs to be decided at how a “sukha vedana” is defined.
Is “sukha vedana” defined as “a bodily sensation”? If so, sweetness of sugar would not count as a sukha vedana.”
I am on travel, and don’t have access to my resources. But the more I think, I believe that “sukha/dukha vedana” are felt just by the body (kaya).
As discussed in the Kama Guna post, “sweetness of sugar” is a characteristic of the human bhava. Until an Arahant’s physical human body dies, he/she will feel that somanassa vedana.
It comes via “jivhanca paticca rasanca uppaddati jivha vinnanam“, “tinnan sangati phasso“, “phassa paccaya vedana“.
The somanassa vedana is indeed produced by “samphassa with gati”. The gati in this case are not just with the Arahant, but anyone in human bhava. “Sweetness in sugar” is a “human gati”; see the post on Kama Guna. For the Arahant, that gathi will also go away at Parinibbana; it is there only as long as that last human body is alive.
However, the next step: “vedana paccaya tanha” does not arise in the Arahant. That is the difference.
See: “Difference between Phassa and Samphassa”
We can discuss more if needed. This is an important point.
Sorry. I did not catch that in #1 when I revised it today.
Just revised it to: “Attaining magga phala — including Arahantship — do not have such set requirements (at least I have not seen).”
Hi Akvan,
“Does this mean that a human with niyatha miccha ditti may be born again as a human after his death, if he has not expended his kamma for a human bhava.”Yes. If it is not an anantariya kamma he will be born human to the end of the human bhava.
“However, if it means that a person with niyatha miccha ditti is born in the lower realms after his kamma for the human bhava is expended, then these stories do make complete sense.”
That is indeed the case.
@upekkha100:
Can there be a difference between spoken words and written words if they have the same words?
– This is the point that we seem to have finally converged to.There could be a big difference. Let me give an example.
Suppose a little child is about to touch a red-hot cooking surface, because it looks attractive. If the mother sees that, how would she say, “Don’t touch it!”?.
– The tone of her voice will tell the child it would be dangerous to touch it. The child would immediately pull back.On the other hand, if someone watching just said, “Don’t touch it!” without any emotion in the voice, the child may not even hear that. Even if she hears it, she may not pay any attention to it.
– But those are exactly the same words!That “tone of voice” is captured in a recording.
Vince asked: “Could the fact that I was ordained during the time I absorbed all of this information be another factor to consider? How significant of a role would it play in accelerating one’s progress and also, is it possible to bypass that need to physically hear a sound to attain magga phala if one is absorbing Dhamma while one is ordained?”
Yes. It would definitely play a role in making understanding concepts easier. When one is living the life of a bhikkhu, there are less things to worry about, and one’s mind could expected to be relatively more calm. Furthermore, the environment is more peaceful and calm too.
– However, per that sutta that I quoted earlier, attaining Sotapanna phala happens only while listening to an Ariya, whether one is a bhikkhu or not.It is also important to note that this listening requirement is not there for higher magga phala. The help of an Ariya is needed only for the attainment of Sotapanna phala.
You can read the following post and see whether it answers your questions. I just revised it:
Pāramitā and Niyata Vivarana – Myths or Realities?
