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upekkha100:
“1) When one does punnabhisankhara, are the sense faculties ayatana here as well?”
Yes. Punnabhisankhara also lead to rebirths. Even though they are in “good realms”, the rebirth process will continue. As long as one is in the rebirth process without attaining a magga phala, one is likely to be reborn in an apaya at some point.
– Yes. In this case also indriya are used as ayatana.Another thing to keep mind is that punna kamma become kusala kamma if there is no greed or avijja associated with that act. The that would not count towards rebirth.
– For example, if one donates something out of pure compassion, that is a kusala kamma. It could become just a punna kamma if there are “any expectations” for that giving.
– In any case, one should definitely do such acts without worrying too much about that distinction. Getting rebirths in good realms is a must until one gets to a magga phala.Regarding indriya bhavana:
You said: ‘But when we do good deeds, to eventually make these good deeds not be rooted in alobha/adosa/amoha.”Actually, when one’s understanding increases, one’s wisdom (panna) will grow. Then one would be AUTOMATICALLY doing most deeds with panna or with understanding of the anicca nature.
– Then one would be doing more deeds with metta, karuna,mudita, upekkha.The higher the understanding, the more power those thoughts will have.
– So, that is not something easy to force. It comes with understanding.You said: “Without good deeds, Nibbana will be difficult to attain.”
Exactly right. One should NEVER shy away from punna kamma. As our understanding grows, those will automatically become kusala kamma. We don’t need to worry whether they are punna kamma or kusala kamma.firewns:
Kammic energy is defined at the beginning of a bhava. So, when it runs out one will leave the existing bhava regardless of which form it is in.
So, if it runs out while in the gandhabba state, the gandhabba will cease to exist and the new life-form will start.
– For example, if the new bhava is a deva bhava, then a deva will appear in the deva loka instantaneously.If the kammic energy runs out for a human baby, the baby will die and the new life-form will start.
– For example, if the new bhava is an animal bhava, an animal gandhabba will come out of the dead body of that baby.
– By the way, this why some healthy young people just drop and die. They could have been very healthy. But of course there will be a medical reason, for example, “an unexpected” heart attack could have been the cause.Yes. I believe that translation is good.
“are the English translations correct? Is this one of those suttas that is straightforward and sufficient as is? Or is there a deeper meaning behind the surface meaning? Does it need patiniddesa(need to be described in detail)?”
Yes to the first two and no to the last two.
It is not a deep sutta, but as you say it is an important sutta.
upekkha100’s questions:
“1) Does pavutti kamma bhava mean one will get the vipaka only within this current bhava we are in right now? Or does it also involve vipaka in future bhava that will come after this current bhava?”They could occur in this bhava or future bhava.
“2) Does uppatthi kamma bhava mean a vipaka that is an entirely brand new bhava/existence?”
Yes. That is a new bhava, not a jati within a bhava. For example, when one is in the human bhava, one may be born (jati) many times with a physical human body, and in between those, one lives with just the mental body (gandhabba).
Cuti-patisandhi (or grasping a new bhava) happens only when the kammic energy for the current bhava is totally exhausted. When that happens the above human may grasp a new bhava of a deva, brahma, animal, etc.
Nikita said: “But then it was also said that vaci sankhara (including talking to oneself) can be considered as kamma pata..”
Yes. You are right. If I said that, that is not really correct.
“Talking to oneself” is a vaci sankhara, and it is an apunnabi sankhara.
However, it becomes a “kamma pata” only if it is really carried out: For example, if actually killing or hurting someone or actually spreading a falsehood to hurt someone, etc.“Talking to oneself” is bad because it defiles one’s mindset, even if one does not carry it out. For example, “day dreaming about sex” is bad even though it does not hurt someone else, because it becomes a pancanivarana, and blocks one’s mind from getting to samadhi.
– Then it would also become easier to actually carry out a kamma pata eventually.Hi Siebe: My suggestion is to use the sankhara instead of “formations”: “Sankhāra – What It Really Means“.
Pali words are complex and it is impossible to translate with a single English word. So, for most people it would be better to just understand what is meant by such words, and just use the Pali word.
But of course it is up to each person.
Chrisitian said: It’s better to not compare and to not bring any outside schools here and trying to fit them here in terms of anything right as they are not right at all in most cases.”
I agree. Trying to address concepts in other schools will only lead to confusion. I have mentioned this several times. Please keep that mind when you post.
We have enough difficulties with dealing with “bad or useless translations” in Theravada itself.
That is why I asked Siebe to clarify what he meant by “formations” (I think he meant sankhara).
– It is better to use key Pali words like sankhara instead of using “formations” which does not convey any meaning. It is better to try to learn the meanings of key Pali words and then use those Pali words.Right VISION (Samma Ditthi) is achieved first that it is NOT FRUITFUL to take, “this is not mine, not who i am, not myself’ AND all formations and states are impermanent, cannot be kept to ones satisfaction, are unsatisfactory, and without essence or self”.
I have explained this many times before. But here is another way to say that.
One who has SEEN the truth of that is a Sotapanna. That is called getting rid of wrong views about this world or “ditthi vipallāsa”.
But that person still have two more stages to overcome: Saññā vipallāsa (wrong perceptions) and Citta vipāllasa (wrong way of thinking based on such perceptions which continue as “habits”). That is why a Sotapanna may still enjoy sense pleasures.
It is sort of like someone being able to convince for oneself that smoking is bad for one’s health. But that person may still continue smoking (with less and less frequency) until he gets rid of that habit one day.
See: “Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?“.
A Sotapanna not only has NOT gotten rid of the sense of “me” (which happens at the Arahant stage), but still likes to enjoy sense pleasures (which goes away at the Anāgami stage).
This is one of those in the “grey area”.
If a fetus in the womb is aborted, that is definitely “killing a human being”; see, “Buddhist Explanations of Conception, Abortion, and Contraception“.
I Googled “ectopic pregnancy” and the following are bits of information from there:
- “ectopic pregnancy — happens when a fertilized egg gets stuck on its way to the uterus”.
- The pregnancy may not even be detected until either “The structure containing the fetus typically ruptures after about 6 to 16 weeks, long before the fetus is viable..”
- There have been few cases where the fetus grows outside the womb and the baby is delivered (but the pregnancy had not been detected): “Ectopic pregnancy“.
- So, it seems ectopic pregnancy is detected when the mother starts bleeding, and then the normal procedure is to remove it to save the mother.
– So, the fetus does not get to the uterus.
– So, normally pregnancy is detected when that structure ruptures and the mother is taken to a hospital.
– Then the doctors remove that fetus anyway, to save the mother’s life.We must also realize that there are many instances where it is impossible to live without harming other beings (not humans, unless it is a special case like this).
– When we apply medicine to a wound, for example, numerous microscopic beings are killed. When we take medicine for a stomach-ache the same.
– So, sometimes it is unavoidable to avoid these things as long as we are in this rebirth process.Glad to hear you are making progress, Aniduan.
I think you have figured out the solution to your remaining problem: “I still get angry at work place when someone does a mistake and tries to blame me for that. My anger is causing vaci shankara(keep hating them in my mind) and kaya shankara(displaying anger at them using words)…”
You have understood vaci sankhara and kaya sankhara correctly.
– As long as one keeps generating conscious thoughts of anger (vaci sankhara) and expresses that with speech and bodily actions, it will be hard to control.
– This where the “effort” or “viriya” comes in.Try to control anger at them, even if it is their fault that makes you angry.
– Try to reduce interactions with those who annoy you, if possible.Also try to do mundane metta bhavana specifically towards them first (wishing them be happy, peaceful, and healthy). Picture them in your mind as you do that. It may be hard to do at first, but you may be pleasantly surprised in the long term.
– Then also do Ariya metta bhavana towards all beings. Think about the suffering of those beings in the lower realms (including the animal realm) and wish them to be released of such suffering.
– Another thing is to think about bad consequences of generating bad thoughts/speech/actions, AND the possible good consequences of being able to suppress them.Hello Nikita! Welcome to the forum!
Those “bodily feelings” are nothing to worry about. They could be related to jhanas too.
Yes. Even breath meditation or mundane kasina mediation can easily get one to experience such things (including jhana), especially if one had cultivated jhanas in recent previous lives as a human.
– Then one could have even been born in a brahma realm, and may have come back to the human realm.As we know one can be born (jati) as a human many times within a given human existence (bhava): “Bhava and Jāti – States of Existence and Births Therein“.
So, those who had cultivated (anariya) jhana in the recent past may easily experience such “bodily feelings” or even jhana. It is those who also can easily experience “out-of-body” experiences where the “mental body” (gandhabba) can come out. Those who can do “astral travel” do that by coming out of the physical body with the gandhabba.
However, those previous jhana experiences are NOT likely to be Ariya jhanas. If they were one would not be coming back to the human realm or even deva realms. That is because one’s kama raga would have been REMOVED; see, “Mundane versus Supramundane Jhāna“.
In any case, Nikita is on the right track. As he says, one should not be satisfied (complacent) with any jhanic experiences. Those are temporary. We all had cultivated not only jhanas, but also supernormal (iddhi) powers in our deep past.
I always point out to the fact that Devadatta had cultivated jhanas and iddhi powers, but he lost all that and born in an apaya.
– On the other hand, being able to get to any jhana is a good thing (and may not be easy for some). That means one is able to at least suppress kama raga temporarily, and thus get to a better state of mind.
– However, it is not necessary to cultivate jhana in order to attain magga phala.Yeos post was in the spam folder and I just “unspammed” it.
If your post does not show up, please send me an email: [email protected].
I am not sure why it happens sometimes. But I can easily recover them.
I don’t think this book has those details. This is a good book that I recently mentioned in a post. But it has very little information before the Buddhahood.
It is surprising to me that there does not seem to be any English textbooks on the life of Prince Siddhartha in general.
Such information is unlikely to be in the suttas, but could be in the Vinaya Piṭaka. I have not had time to look at the Vinaya Piṭaka (I only started reading suttas after the Parinibbana of Waharaka Thero; until then I just relied on his desanas).
When I was growing up in Sri Lanka, these details on Buddha’s life before Enlightenment (i.e., Prince Siddhartha’s) were taught in school. There were books written in Sinhala. So, it never occurred me to even look into this aspect all this time.
After seeing upekkha100’s post, I looked into it a bit, but could not find much online or in textbook form.
If anyone knows any text books or online info, that would be very beneficial.
