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upekkha100 wrote: “Competitiveness(wanting to defeat others, win against others, one-upping others) comes from envy(issa) or asmi mana?”
No. asmi mana is very different from macchariya that I explained above.
– It is the last bit of sense of a “me”.
– For example, an Anagami would have asmi mana but even a Sotapanna would not have macchariya (stinginess).
– In the case of an Anagami, for example, if someone verbally abuses or hits an Anagami, that Anagami would not generate anger. It would only be a displeasure directed at the abuser. But the mindset would be disturbed, and he/she would think, for example, “why is this person so ignorant and is abusing me?”. It is just a trace of a “self”.In any case, I think this discussion has gone far enough. There is no point in debating the difference between envy and jealousy; that would be suitable for a philosophical forum. Google those words and see. They are both at a much higher level than “asmi mana”.
Tien is correct in saying that since she is responding she is generating thoughts (and that would require at least one of the six sense inputs must be coming in), some parts of her brain must be working.
However, even if the woman is totally unconscious, as long as the body temperature does not drop (and the body does not start to decay), she is alive. As long as she is alive, she is able to conceive.
A gandhabba only needs a “zygote” (right chemical composition) to take possession of. That is why it can happen even outside the womb (artificial insemination).
If the woman is truly dead, then the eggs in her womb will also start decaying along with her physical body. In that case, they would not be able to combine with a sperm and make a zygote.
It is a very good question, firewrns.
The key here is to understand what is really meant by “having faith” in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha.
This is NOT a pledge that is done without understanding. I know a lot of people who have “blind faith” in the Buddha, but are not even aware of the basic teachings of the Buddha. They may even believe in their hearts that they have “faith” in the Buddha. But the key is unless they truly understand the Dhamma, they cannot have true faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, or Sangha.
One example from the Tipitaka is queen Mallika, who gave the most expensive alms giving to the Buddha and a very large number of bhikkhus. She was born in an apaya (as a worm). Thus she was not even a Sotapanna Anugami.
To be at least a Sotapanna Anugami one has to “see” the Dhamma: Basically, how one can be born in an apaya if one still has “apayagami gatI”. One has to know how “apayagami gati” are related to that type of sankhara and vinnana (due to avijja), i.e., one needs to understand Paticca Samuppada (and also remove the deeper layer of avijja by beginning to comprehend Tilakkhana). See, “Viññāna – Consciousness Together With Future Expectations” (and “Viññāna Aggregate” for a deeper analysis of vinnana).
Therefore, both UNDERSTANDING Dhamma, and LIVING (generating/stopping sankhara accordingly) is the key. This was explained in the two posts published recently (which I wrote to dispel this myth about blind faith at the Dhamma Wheel forum):
Breath Meditation Is Addictive and Harmful in the Long Run
Ānapānasati Eliminates Mental Stress PermanentlyIn fact, I started the new subsection, “Essential Buddhism” because I was appalled by the level of ignorance displayed by several people commenting at that forum. They were harassing me because they thought I was teaching wrong Dhamma! But I think at least some are beginning to realize their lack of understanding. It is not their fault. Most publications in English have incorrect or incomplete translations of deep suttas.
As mentioned in that second post:
Understanding Buddha Dhamma is all about understanding the steps in Paticca Samuppāda:“Yō paticcasamuppādam passati,
so Dhammam passati.
Yō Dhammam passati,
so paticcasamuppādam passati”One who sees paticcasamuppāda
sees the Dhamma.
One who sees the Dhamma
sees paticcasamuppāda.”(Mahāhatthipadopama Sutta (MN 28); at the end).
Also, one needs to understand what is meant by “Buddha”: “bhava uddha” or “stopping future bhava” (and jati or births).
– A Buddha is someone who discovered the way to “stop future bhava” and thus to “stop future suffering”.
– In the Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta, the Buddha clearly declared the ultimate goal: “akuppā me vimutti, ayam antimā jāti, natthi dāni punabbhavo” or “I have attained the ultimate release (from all suffering); this is the last birth, no more births for me”.Finally, in the Vakkali Sutta (SN 22.87), the Buddha told Ven. Vakkali: “Yo kho, vakkali, dhammaṃ passati so maṃ passati; yo maṃ passati so dhammaṃ passati” OR “One who sees the Dhamma sees me; one who sees me sees the Dhamma”.
Therefore, to have true faith, one needs to “see” Dhamma; to see Dhamma, one needs to see Paticca Samuppada; to truly understand Paticca Samuppada, one needs to start comprehending Tilakkhana; for that one needs to get rid of the 10 types of miccha ditthi first.
– Therefore it is a step-by-step process.This “process” is not completed in a single lifetime. Those who get to Arahanthood by just hearing a single verse had fulfilled most of the steps in previous lives.
– We all have fulfilled these to varying levels.
– Some of the progress may even be temporarily hidden (if Sotapanna stage had not been reached in previous lives), and it may be easy to “get it back” if one is exposed to true Dhamma.
– We just need to do our best to advance from wherever we are at this time.No problem, Christian.
It is fine to point out if a clearly wrong statement is made. Let us just make sure to quote the statement and point out why it is wrong.
Christian wrote: “In Kotthita Sutta, Venerable Sariputta explains that the problem is not an eye or music but the craving (on the basis of ignorance)”
Yes. that is correct, and I fully agreed when you wrote that earlier too.
I was just questioning your earlier statement: “Totally not agree. Buddha Dhamma is not about poking out eyes nor destroying objects of affection for that eye.”.
No one made such a claim.We need to be careful about not taking another person’s comments out of context.
It is better to QUOTE what another person has written, if a rebuttal is needed. That way, there is no misunderstanding as to what is being refuted.
As I understand, the meanings may be expressed the following ways:
Issa = Envy: X has a bigger house and I have a small one. I am envious of X.
Macchariya (I am not sure whether there is an English word for this; the closest may be “stingy”): I have a lot of wealth, and I do not want others to come asking for donations or trying to rob me. Therefore, I try to pretend that I do not have much wealth.
Again, as I understand, a Sotapanna would not have either.
Christian wrote: ” As Sotapanna you can still have cravings especially those deep-rooted ones.”
It is true that a Sotapanna would have kama raga (i.e., he/she would still enjoy sense pleasures).
But he/she would not have jealousy for anyone else having better access to sense pleasures.
– Cravings do not necessarily lead to jealousy.
– It is a step-by-step process. At the next step, Sakadagami would still like sense pleasures, but would not have any desire to OWN objects that provide sense pleasures.Christian wrote: “Totally not agree. Buddha Dhamma is not about poking out eyes nor destroying objects of affection for that eye.”
Could you elaborate who said that? I did not see such a statement, but I may have missed it.
upekkha100 wrote: “So I’d like to know how one would successfully be able to do this(reduce kama raga)?”
firewns wrote: “For the attainment of sotapanna magga phala, formal meditation techniques are not necessary as one can listen to a desana by a knowledgeable Ariya.”
That is correct: Formal meditation is not necessary (but could be used) for the Sotapanna phala.
But meditation could also be interpreted as contemplation. Contemplation is necessary for any kind progress. One needs to comprehend the “world view” of the Buddha.
firewns other comments are very insightful. When one cultivates sobhana cetasika, it automatically leads to the suppression of asobhana cetasika. Therefore, when one is on the Path, not only immoral thoughts, but also kama raga is reduced (gradually).
Hi Tobias,
Thanks for pointing out the error. I just revised the statement as follows:“A purified mind of an Arahant would have maximized sōbhana cetasika, including paññā (wisdom). Once that is done one would not grasp any bhava at the cuti-patsandhi moment, since one has fully comprehended the futility of any existence in the 31 realms”.
lucas.cambon wrote: “Sotāpanna occurs upon attainment of the seventh stage.”
I think this is a misunderstanding. The completion of the seven visuddhis is the same as completing the Noble Eightfold Path. So, if someone completes them, one would be an Arahant.
Could you provide a Tipitaka reference for a Sotapanna completing all seven visuddhis?
P.S. I just found the following sutta, which confirms what I stated above:
“Ratavinita Sutta (MN 24)“.A fairly good English translation is at:
“Ratha-vinita Sutta: Relay Chariots“I will try to post a regular post on Agganna sutta in the coming days. That will be easier than to keep writing here.
Of course, it will be an outline only but hopefully will clarify how complex this whole issue is.
Welcome to the forum, lucas.cambon!
Different people “see” Nibbana differently. But I am a bit puzzled by: ““In order to enter the Stream one MUST experience Nibbana, going beyond mind and matter and entering in the state of Nirodha where all the senses (including the mind) stop working.”
Is that something that you experienced or what you think it should be? If it a personal experience, it would be beneficial for others if you can describe what that experience was like.
Dukkha nirodha is “stopping future suffering”.
– Nirōdha comes from “nir” + “udā“, where “nir” meaning stop and “udā” is arising.
– Nirōdha could also mean, “ni” + “rōdha” where “ni” again is stop and “rōdha” refers to “wheel” or “wheeling” referring to samsāric journey.At the first stage of Nibbana (Sotapanna), one “sees” why Nibbana should be realized (that repeated birth in the 31 realms is filled with suffering much more than temporary occasions of happiness) AND how that can be realized. It is like seeing “the path” to get to the destination (Nibbana or Arahanthood).
– In a mundane sense it is like “seeing” how 3 plus 5 is 8, without having to count with fingers. One just realizes the anicca nature of this world: That one can never maintain anything to one’s satisfaction.Now one may start feeling bodily sensations on the way to get that moment or even after that phala moment.
– That is associated with getting to samadhi and in some cases jhana.All senses stop working only in nirōdha samāpatti, which can be attained only after getting to at least the Anagami stage AND after cultivating all the Ariya jhanas.
Upekkha100 wrote:”“But before reaching such a stage one has to analyse the dhamma and needs hints and proof to establish saddha/panna. I agree with this.”
I agree with that too.
But one does not need to learn about the beginning of the world to establish faith in Buddha Dhamma. One needs to feel the niramisa sukha by following the Eightfold Path to establish faith.
– Investigating how the Earth was formed, is not something that can be described even in several posts.
– In order to properly discuss the Agganna sutta will take a book.
– Furthermore, it will take precious time away from focusing on more urgent needs. Each person should focus on getting release from the apayas first, in my opinion (and then getting released from the kama loka).Let me just say one thing about the sutta. The Buddha delivered that sutta to two brahmins, to explain that not only vedic brahmins but ALL LIVING BEINGS on this Earth came from the pabhassara brahma realm in the beginning (i.e., each and every living being on this was a brahma at the beginning).
-Now you can see why there are going to be many questions.
-There are more urgent things to discuss right now. From my recent experience at Dhamma Wheel discussion board, I am amazed at how little general public knows about the BASICS of Buddha Dhamma. There is much to do on that front.Upekkhas100’s questions:
“So sensing the absence or arising of jealousy within us is one good indication of whether one is a Sotapanna or not.”It is true that a Sotapanna would have removed jealousy: When one realizes the anicca nature, there is nothing to be jealous about. Jealousy comes from another person owning “valuable stuff”.
– But it may not be straightforward to make a determination based on just that. Furthermore, jealousy may not arise in one situation, but may arise in another.“Though I feel I should point out and emphasize: the only way to be sure if one is really a Sotapanna or any Ariya is a confirmation by the Buddha.”
That is not correct. One could determine for ONESELF (But only a Buddha can determine the status of another person). The buddha has stated that it is fine, and also fine to declare it too (see Maha Parinibbna Sutta, for example). But of course, one may make such declaration with or without merit. We just don’t know.
– In any case, there is no point in even trying to guess the status of another.
– Even for oneself, if it is not clear whether one has attained any magga phala, it would not matter much. One’s efforts will NOT go to waste. Even if one has a dvi-hetuka birth, it will help one get a tihetuka birth.
– Until Arahanthood, one should not “slow down”. One time a bhikkhu stopped striving and when asked by the Buddha said that he had attained the Anagami stage and thus he would not mind being born in brahma worlds. The Buddha asked him if he had feces in his hand and wiped it off, would it not still smell. The bhikkhu understood and was able to attain the Arahanthood.
