[Cariyaputta]

In this Sutta (SN45.8) and also Saccavibhaṅgasutta (MN141), and Samādhibhāvanāsutta (AN4.41) The Buddha & Ven. Sariputta defined the meaning of Sammāsamādhi as having The 4 Jhanas (as least: as the base) (from the descriptions of The 4 Jhanas in the Sutta, The Buddha wasn’t made the distinction between Anariya or Ariya Jhanas):

Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammāsamādhi? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. Vitakkavicārānaṃ vūpasamā ajjhattaṃ sampasādanaṃ cetaso ekodibhāvaṃ avitakkaṃ avicāraṃ samādhijaṃ pītisukhaṃ dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. Pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati sato ca sampajāno, sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti, yaṃ taṃ ariyā ācikkhanti: ‘upekkhako satimā sukhavihārī’ti tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. Sukhassa ca pahānā dukkhassa ca pahānā pubbeva somanassadomanassānaṃ atthaṅgamā adukkhamasukhaṃ upekkhāsatipārisuddhiṃ catutthaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati—ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, sammāsamādhī”ti.

The Buddha also encourages Bikkhus to develop Jhanas in various Suttas, such as Gopakamoggallānasutta (MN108), Pāsādikasutta (DN29) or Laṭukikopamasutta (MN66), he said:

…paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ…dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ…tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ…catutthaṃ jhānaṃ…
Idaṃ vuccati nekkhammasukhaṃ pavivekasukhaṃ upasamasukhaṃ sambodhasukhaṃ, āsevitabbaṃ, bhāvetabbaṃ, bahulīkātabbaṃ; ‘na bhāyitabbaṃ etassa sukhassā’ti vadāmi.

which means (Bikkhu Sujato’s translation):

…first jhana…second jhana…third jhana…fourth jhana…
This is called the pleasure of renunciation, the pleasure of seclusion, the pleasure of peace, the pleasure of awakening. Such pleasure should be cultivated and developed, and should not be feared, I say.

I’m not say that Jhanas is required to attain Sotapanna stages or any stages of Nibbana, there are a man (I forgot which was the Sutta) who attains Arahant stage through a single verse spoken by the Buddha. And Devadatta although cultivates Anariya Jhanas and have Anariya Abhinnas but still end up in Niraya.

The methods present at Lal’s website are greatly benefit for all level of development, and are a reliable source of true Dhamma & how to put it in practice. At the beginning of the Path, it is true that there are more things to concern about than develop Jhanas, but when one immersed in the Path, have the foundations unshaken, then the role of Jhanas is undoubtedly crucial. There are people cultivate the Path in many lives, so they just need to hear a single verse to attain Magga Phala, but you can’t be certain about your past, so I would say one will need to practice the Path in whole.

From the above points, The 4 Jhanas are significant and cannot be put aside. From my understanding, the cultivation of Path is a gradual process, and cultivating 4 Jhanas (Anariya or Ariya all count) is a essential part of the Path that should be actively practice and develop together with other parts of the Path.

I’m currently practicing (Anariya) Jhanas along side with practicing the Dhamma, as a hobby, haven’t get to the 1st Jhana yet, found it extremely difficult, I tried many of the ways in the internet but haven’t worked for me just a single time. But I don’t give up. IMO that Jhanas was common knowledge among the truth seekers community at the Buddha time, so his instructions on Jhana are few and rather compact. So anyone would point out a Sutta where the Buddha explain in details how to get to the First Jhana, The Second Jhana, … would be very beneficial for me. I think the missing link for me to attain Anagami stage is the Jhanas, if I was able to get into Jhanas, abandon Kama Raga of mundane senses pleasures will be easy like throwing away trashes.

I don’t know if put this post in this section, the Jhanas section, or Experiences section is more fit. Hope Lal will help me move it to the right section.

Any relevant idea, more Suttas or discussion is welcome.

On the way to Stream Entry.

[Lal]

Yes. The Buddha pointed out the dangers in sense pleasures. The only “pleasure” recommended by the Buddha was “jhanic pleasures”.
– But he did not recommend getting to anariya jhana by using anariya techniques like the breath mediation.

When one does insight mediation, one first gets to samadhi, and eventually gets to the Arahanthood, as described in the Upanisa Sutta (SN 12.23):

“..With the comprehension of suffering (i.e., the First Noble Truth via Tilakkhana) faith results; with the growth of faith, lightness of mind (pāmojjaṃ) arises; with increasing lightness of mind, joy (piti) arises; with increasing joy, lightness of the body (passaddhi) arises; with increasing passaddhi, bodily sukha arises; with increasing bodily sukha, samādhi arises; with samādhi, yathābhūtañāṇadassana (knowledge and vision of things as they really are) arises; with the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, one loses attachment to worldly things (nibbidā), followed by losing cravings for sense pleasures (viragā), and liberation (vimutti), and to the destruction of all defilements (khayeñāṇaṃ)”.

Now, jhana may be attained anytime around the step, “with increasing passaddhi, bodily sukha arises“.
– One may proceed all the way to Arahanthood without getting to jhanas.

Of course, even here one may get into anariya jhana by the suppression of kama raga.
– The point is that one DOES NOT HAVE TO do anariya meditation techniques (like breath meditation) to even to get to anariya jhana.
– Anariya jhana just means one has not yet eliminated the kama raga. Even while doing insight meditation, one may get to anariya jhana by just suppressing kama raga. Later on, when one REMOVES kama raga, those will automatically become Ariya jhana.

The point that I am trying to make is that doing breath meditation could be a waste of time.

• Jhana are mental states corresponding to brahma realms.
• For those who have cultivated jhana in previous recent past lives, they come naturally even without much effort.
• So, it could be difficult for others to attain jhanas, even if they have magga phala.
• As the above sutta illustrates, the key to the Arahanthood is to get to samādhi (jhana are a special case of samādhi).

More information at:
Mundane versus Supramundane Jhāna

AND
“Samādhi, Jhāna (Dhyāna), Magga Phala”

P.S. I think “Tapussa Sutta (AN 9.41)” describes the jhanas in detail.

[Yeos]

Hi.

According PureDhamma (as far as i understood and simplifying alot) underlying Arya Jhana there must be a very deep understanding of Tilakhanna AND such Arya Jhana should be attained not by focusing on a somewhat “material” point as breathing, it should be attained by focusing on a concept.

However to focus on a concept might not be suited for some gatis; that’s why i prone the practice of at least two procedures, one conceptual (even if difficult in the beginning) and the other non-conceptual (breathing or else) to attain Jhana.
But of course non-conceptual procedures like focusing on breathing should be accompanied by alot of contemplation (bhavana) then the Jhanas obtained through i.e. breathing can be considered Arya Jhanas – isn’t so ? For you can’t correctly and longly focus on breathing if your mind isn’t enough purified by deep undeerstanding !

Third hypothesis – this more related to the magga phala concept – by living ethically and alot of study one can also evolve…however this would be another subject…

As for rapture it’s ok as much as one doesn’t become dependent on it.

[y not]

Yeos,

Thank you for this.

Your ‘conceptual’ (Ariya – involving Tilakkhana) and ‘Third hypothesis’ (related to magga phala, so also involving Tilakkhana, plus ‘living ethically and a lot of study’) to me are one. This last not ‘another subject’. I combine the two.

So to me it is: living a moral life as far as possible (occasional ‘slips’ happen, but not grave ones) – therefore sila; dana (by body, speech AND mind), ever mindful of the anicca and anatta nature and ‘how everything eventually, even all this, comes to nothing in the grandest cosmic timescale imaginable.

Metta to you

[upekkha100]

I would like to know about the specific step by step process to get to jhanas as well.

It would have great benefits.

Not only less temptation by sense pleasures, but less struggle fighting against strong sense pleasures as well. The struggle gets annoying/tiring after a while. It would be nice not to have this struggle.

What instructions did the Buddha recommend for anariyas who are following the mundane Path to cultivate the jhanas?

If not through breathing, what was the method he approved of?

What should be the focus? A Dhamma concept? Metta?

I feel I can’t focus on a concept for that long, nor on metta.

[Christian]

“Not only less temptation by sense pleasures, but less struggle fighting against strong sense pleasures as well. The struggle gets annoying/tiring after a while. It would be nice not to have this struggle.”

If you fight against a strong sense of pleasure and cannot conquer it – you will not be able to attain jhana anyway.

I practiced jhanas a lot with what I could call LOW results but when I realized that those LOW results is like what people keep in high esteem I easily dropped craving to attain jhana.

[Lal]

upekkha100 said: “What instructions did the Buddha recommend for anariyas who are following the mundane Path to cultivate the jhanas?”

None.

“If not through breathing, what was the method he approved of?”

Mundane eightfold path first and then the Noble Eightfold Path. Samadhi (and jhanas whenever possible) will come automatically. Jhansa are not necessary even for the Arahanthood:
“Sīla, Samādhi, Pannā to Pannā, Sīla, Samādhi”

“I feel I can’t focus on a concept for that long, nor on metta.”

That could be because you may not have fulfilled enough sila or not gotten rid of the 10 types of miccha ditthi:
“Mahā Cattārisaka Sutta (Discourse on the Great Forty)”

A final word:
I personally know people who are addicted to “jhanic pleasures”. They have stopped pursuing Dhamma any further and are stuck now.
– In fact there are people who are addicted to just a “calm state of mind” that they get when doing breath meditation, especially at retreats. So, they just keep going back to retreats to get another dose once in a while.
– I think that is a pathetic situation. Getting rid of greed, hate, and ignorance requires an effort: lead a moral life cultivating true Anapana/Satipatthana (see the Meditation section), and learn true and pure dhamma.

Here is what I said in an earlier post on this topic:
When one does insight mediation, one first gets to samadhi, and eventually gets to the Arahanthood, as described in the Upanisa Sutta (SN 12.23):

“..With the comprehension of suffering (i.e., the First Noble Truth via Tilakkhana) faith results; with the growth of faith, lightness of mind (pāmojjaṃ) arises; with increasing lightness of mind, joy (piti) arises; with increasing joy, lightness of the body (passaddhi) arises; with increasing passaddhi, bodily sukha arises; with increasing bodily sukha, samādhi arises; with samādhi, yathābhūtañāṇadassana (knowledge and vision of things as they really are) arises; with the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, one loses attachment to worldly things (nibbidā), followed by losing cravings for sense pleasures (viragā), and liberation (vimutti), and to the destruction of all defilements (khayeñāṇaṃ)”.

Now, jhana may be attained anytime around the step, “with increasing passaddhi, bodily sukha arises“.
– One may proceed all the way to Arahanthood without getting to jhanas.
That is from my earlier post.

Ariya jhanas start with the Anagami stage (kama raga not merely suppressed but removed). So, they are unlikely to get “hooked to” jhanic pleasures. Even if they do, it will not matter much because they will not come back from the brahma realms to the lower realms.

January 15, 2019:
Just posted: “Breath Meditation Is Addictive and Harmful in the Long Run“.

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