Pain

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This topic contains 33 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  Lal 5 months, 2 weeks ago.

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  • #21241

    Dhamma123
    Participant

    I have some sense of fear when it comes to pain, I pressume it has to do with aversion to pain.

    Somehow that is one reason why I can feel pushed or scared by someone with more physical strength than me. What can be a good way to stop this or to stop the sensation of pain?

    I tried metta and it does work to calm down all of it.

  • #21246

    Tien
    Participant

    Hi Dhamma123,

    As I see, you are a new member of the forum. I think you should share your progression of the Path, so people can help you accordingly. I think this sutta may be helpful to you: Advice to Puṇṇa (Puṇṇovādasutta – MN145) (remember to click on the Gear icon and enable Pali-English parallel for easy reference).

    But this sutta is for one who are well gone and skilled on the Path. But you can still practice it and see the benefits in everyday life. If you are new to Buddhism as well, I recommend that you should first read and take your time contemplate on all the posts on PureDhamma.net, especially on these topics: Buddha Dhamma, Key Dhamma Concepts, Living Dhamma and Three Level of Practice.

    Please keep asking question if I my answer wasn’t satisfy you. Remember purify the mind is a gradual process. Hope you attain Magga Phala soon.

    • #21249

      Yeos
      Participant

      @tien,

      Personally i prefer other suttas where one can find excellent tips on how to face fear & danger effectively and SURVIVE.
      As they did in Japan i.e. see Takuan’s and the samurais.

      And anticipating what you might be thinking : Why would to act with effectiveness to protect one’s own life , in a situation of rightful self-defense trigger bad kamma ?

  • #21251

    Christian
    Participant

    Those things got nothing to do with Dhamma. Clean mind obviously can create mundane proficiency in relation to everyday life but it is not a magic pill.

    What you are experiencing is simple biological responses because you grow up safe society so your brain didn’t really develop to handle such things.

    To stop fearing life you need to fast, eat well, train and put yourself into situations of risk and danger but if you are adult it can be very hard to do anything with it as most of the neurons are lost while growing up leaving only the necessary ones for further survival.

    You need to start the whole process again to end up in the results you want to be which there are things to do and work on. Dhamma can be helpful as such but it’s not a cure for biological responses. Unless you are Arahant or Anagami (I guess)

    • #21259

      Dhamma123
      Participant

      This is a very mundane and scientific way to look at it. I’m disappointed I found such an answer here.

  • #21252

    Lal
    Keymaster

    Yeos: “As they did in Japan i.e. see Takuan’s and the samurais.”

    Let us not get to these weird topics on samurai. This is a forum on Buddha Dhamma. I am just going to delete any such future posts.

    Buddha Dhamma is based on non-violence. One has to understand that first.

    Retaliating likewise may seem rational, but it is not. One will pay the consequences in future lives. This is what is so hard for many people to understand. There is a time lag of doing bad deeds and reaping their benefits. I discussed this in the most recent post,”Four Noble Truths – Suffering and Its Elimination“.

    • #21263

      Yeos
      Participant

      @Lal

      but isn’t “delete any such future posts.”
      also a form of retaliation?

  • #21257

    y not
    Participant

    Yeos,

    Say someone strikes you or robs you. In both cases it is an act of violence on the other part. The natural (survival) instinct is to hit back or snatch back what you have been robbed of.

    Now it is up to you to not let it become violence on your part as well by retaliating. The other is responsible for his actions, you for your own. Of course, this takes mindfulness. If you ‘take it on the cheek’ and do not re-act the matter is finished there and then. (The thought may arise: since this has happened to me, I must deserve it). Feeling compassion for the other is even going further:

    ‘Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eternal’

    “Na hi verena verāni sammantīdha kudācanaṃ
    Averena ca sammanti esa dhammo sanantano.” (Dhammapada v.5)

    If you do re-act the tit-for-tat will continue into the future. Dhp v. 5 shows how to put an end to it.

    Metta

  • #21258

    Dhamma123
    Participant

    Lal:

    I can understand violence is always wrong, and it is only fair for a monk not to do that ever.

    However, I’m a lay follower of the Buddha, not a monk. I live in a world where violence in speech/body can be useful for self defense. Therefore it is only fair to understand more about pain.

    Lord Buddha said it is impossible to live in this world without harming anybody, so take some of that as you will

  • #21260

    Lal
    Keymaster

    Dhamma123 said: ” I live in a world where violence in speech/body can be useful for self defense.”

    It is up to each person to decide how to live one’s life. The Buddha only pointed out the consequences of violent acts against others. It does not matter whether one is a bhikkhu or not.

    You said: “Lord Buddha said it is impossible to live in this world without harming anybody..”.

    That did not include violence. That meant, for example, in following cases:
    When one walks on grass, one may be killing a lot of small insects. When one applies medicine to a wound, one may be killing a lot of microscopic living beings. Those are not intentional and cannot be avoided.

    But hitting someone, just because that person hit you, can be avoided. And it will save a lot of suffering in the future for oneself (and for the other person too, since if you hit him he may hit back again). By the way, this is what is really meant by being mindful (Anapana/Satipatthana).

    Violence CANNOT be stopped by more violence. That is what y not explained above.

  • #21261

    Dhamma123
    Participant

    It matters A LOT if you are a Bikkhu. They make vows to practically give up this world.

    Lay people still have to deal with violent, abusive people who won’t care to listen to you unless they see you have a “character* and prove yourself to them.

    This is why I’m asking, what to do with pain? Cope with it? Stop it with meditation? What can be done about pain?

  • #21262

    Dhamma123
    Participant

    Seriously some people just behave like donkeys, won’t respect anybody unless they are forced to through violence. This is why prisons exist.

  • #21265

    Dhamma123
    Participant

    I hope this isn’t another westernized hippie forum. Lord Buddha never said violence must ALWAYS be rejected by lay people. How can the dispensation survive if that was the case?

    Therefore it is only fair to discuss about mindfulness of pain.

    • #21268

      Yeos
      Participant

      FOOD FOR THOUGHT:

      1 – Violence and/or friction in last, very last resort it’s an existential right.

      2- Gotama’s disapproval of suicide implies that he would approve the right to “self”-defense in an extremis situation , namely if and when your (stream of)life is really in danger.

      3 (see 1 too) – basically there are 2 types of violence: physical and mental – there is violence as soon as the intention of it sprouts in your being as an urge or as a mental riposte…

  • #21266

    Lal
    Keymaster

    “I hope this isn’t another westernized hippie forum.”

    I don’t know what you mean by a “hippie forum”. This is a forum on Buddha Dhamma.

    “Lord Buddha never said violence must ALWAYS be rejected by lay people.”

    I am not sure what you mean by that. If someone is being beaten, he/she should not give-in to that beating willingly.
    – There are ways to avoid beating in the first place (by not doing harm to others.
    – Getting beaten up could be unavoidable kamma vipaka (having beaten someone previously in a vicious way) or by making conditions suitable for a kamma vipaka to come to fruition.

    You may want to read the post: “What is Kamma? – Is Everything Determined by Kamma?“.

  • #21267

    Dhamma123
    Participant

    There are some people who will disrespect one and carry on doing it if there is no retaliation. This is called violence, bullying, harassment. Which is why Lord Buddha never said his lay followers must always avoid violence, in fact he did advice Kings to have armies and police personnel. To say violence must always be avoided (unless you are a monk, because they make vows on the Vinaya) is absurd.

    I’m sad and disappointed I had to explain that. I expected better.

  • #21269

    y not
    Participant

    The choice is this:

    Go along with this world and to this world you return. Go the Way of the Buddhas and transcend it. Gradually. Even that will involve pain, but an end of pain will be in sight.

    Never mind Bhikkhus. One starts from the point one is at, where else can one start? One concentrates on one’s own thoughts, speech and actions. How can one help what others think, say and do?

    Those who are ready and willing to be helped in this greatest of struggles WILL get that help from Ariyas.

    Metta

  • #21270

    Lal
    Keymaster

    Dhamma123 said: “I’m sad and disappointed I had to explain that..”

    You did not explain anything, according to Buddha Dhamma.

    You said: “Which is why Lord Buddha never said his lay followers must always avoid violence, in fact he did advice Kings to have armies and police personnel.”

    Again, when you make statements like this, please give a reference in the Tipitaka. Buddha NEVER gave such advice. Where did you learn this “Dhamma”?
    It is definitely not Buddha Dhamma.

  • #21272

    Dhamma123
    Participant

    “A king should never fall into the power of anger. Rather, let him control his anger, for neither a person’s interests or duty thrive when one is angry… When a dispute arises, he should pay equal attention to both parties, hear the arguments of each and then decide according to what is right. He should not act out of favouritism, hatred, fear or foolishness, but should hear the arguments of both sides and then decide according to what is right… While keeping an eye on state affairs, a king should dispense happiness to all. He should prevent all from committing violence and show that it is righteousness which brings reward. As in the days of former kings, large numbers of immigrants came together to be admitted into the realm, so should you admit them. Always show favour to the poor but also protect the rich who are your subjects…Do not foster hostility towards neighbouring kings. Whoever hates, will be repaid with hatred by his enemies. Cultivate ties of friendship with your neighbours, for others honour those who are steadfast in friendship. Do not talk at great length on all sorts of subjects, but give your judgement at the appropriate time and keep it to the point…Always protect those who live justly. For the wheel of power turns in dependence on the wheel of justice…Do not appoint as headmen of villages or provinces even your own sons or brothers if they are unscrupulous, violent or base…A foolish or greedy minister is of no value to either ruler or realm. Therefore, appoint as your ministers men who are not greedy but prudent and devoted in counsel and who can guide the realm. Your eyes are not as good as those of an informer, nor is your policy. Therefore, you should employ an informer in all your affairs.”

    DN 16, Mahaparanibbana Sutta.

    “What have you heard, Ananda: do the Vajjis duly protect and guard the arahats, so that those who have not come to the realm yet might do so, and those who have already come might live there in peace?”

    “I have heard, Lord, that they do.”

    “So long, Ananda, as this is the case, the growth of the Vajjis is to be expected, not their decline”.

    As you can see violence can sometimes be justified for LAY people, not for monks. Also read the lion’s roar sutta
    Thank you.

    Please take a look at this too: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_kingship

  • #21273

    Lal
    Keymaster

    Dhamma123: There is nothing there to backup your claim: ““Which is why Lord Buddha never said his lay followers must always avoid violence, in fact he did advice Kings to have armies and police personnel.”

    In any case, in your first post on this topic you said: “I have some sense of fear when it comes to pain, I pressume it has to do with aversion to pain.”

    Everyone is afraid of pain. No one likes the pain and tries to avoid pain.
    I am not sure why you think it is just you.

    The solution is always to live a moral and simple life, avoiding extreme greed and extreme anger first. Our minds are stressed with excess greed and hate that arises due to ignorance of the real nature of this this world.

    If you like, you can read some of the posts in this section:
    Living Dhamma – Fundamentals

  • #21274

    Dhamma123
    Participant

    Excuse me? What I posted there is very clear on the subject. Lord Buddha was not an anarchist, he counseled Kings and politicians too. I can even post more things on the matter if you want to. He never said evil should defeat good, thus he never declared violence must always be avoided for lay people. I hope this is clear.

    At least you took the opportunity to answer my question now so I’m thankful for it. I believe the fear is due to ignorance, more especially, a fixed view of a self. One should not be scared of death, abuse and torture.

    I guess I’ll continue to read the Suttas on these matters myself. Thank you.

    • #21275

      Christian
      Participant

      Do not project your problems and insecurities on other people in that manner as you are part of that violence so you will bring that to you by your irresponsible behavior.

      You have two choices to stop fearing things in life.

      1) Attain Nibbana by living simple life and following TRUE and PURE Dhamma then you will experience Niveema and Niramisa Sukha so your mind will be calm in that experience like in Nibbanic bubble.

      2) Be adapted to the situation which creates fear in your so you have more control about it and over it. It does not mean that you need to be violent but responsible to the situation which coming on you. You seem to want other things to control your life or some higher power, not yourself – that where the fear comes. Rather than trying to dodge the situation try to face them.

  • #21276

    Lal
    Keymaster

    Dhamma123 said: “He (Buddha) never said evil should defeat good, thus he never declared violence must always be avoided for lay people. I hope this is clear.”

    It is not clear at all.

    You are thinking in mundane terms, trying to overcome evil by more evil. Like : “If someone hits you, you have a right to hit back; may be even you can get rid of his threats by just killing him” sort of an attitude.

    This is a hard point for many people to understand. The “time lag” involved in results (kamma vipaka) for one’s actions (kamma); see, “Four Noble Truths – Suffering and Its Elimination“. At least read starting from #14.

    One may be able to “solve the problem” of being threatened by someone by just killing him. That is the mundane solution. But one will be paying for that immoral act by suffering for a long time in an apaya.
    – That is what one should really fear.
    – And that fear can be removed by getting to the Sotapanna stage. One will never do such acts and thus one will never be born in an apaya.

    The kind of pain and fear that you are experiencing is at the next level. That pain and fear will be removed at the Anagami stage. Then one would never embrace even “moral sense pleasures” because one could see the drawbacks (and dangers) of those too.
    – This may be a harder point to comprehend. The closest analogy is that of a fish biting into a “tasty bait”. The fish is not doing anything immoral per se. But it does not see the “hidden suffering” and excruciating pain that would result if it bites that bait. That is called avijja or ignorance.
    – In the same way, most people don’t the see the pain and suffering that they experience is due to their actions based on cravings. This is hard to see for an ordinary human, just like a fish cannot see the suffering hidden in the tasty bait. Even Sotapannas have difficulty with that.

    That is why one needs to proceed step-by-step. First learn more TRUE Dhamma and try to remove future suffering in the apayas by getting to the Sotapanna stage.
    – But one must first get rid of the 10 types of miccha ditthi one has (which you obviously have, because your understanding of kamma and kamma vipaka is poor).
    – I would recommend to you or anyone interested the following sections;
    Moral Living and Fundamentals” and first subsections in:
    Living Dhamma

  • #21277

    Dhamma123
    Participant

    It’s not clear to you yet? Okay, I’ll share this Sutta with you to help you understand. https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.054.nara.html

    As you can see, violence is not always wrong or undesirable for a lay person as long as there is a necessity for it and it’s performed with a right intention. There might be a kammic consequence to it but that is another subject and Lord Buddha was clear in that any dramatic and fatalistic understanding of the Dhamma (and kamma particularly) is foolish.

    As it stands now, please just talk about solutions when it comes to pain management. I will gladly discuss kamma with you in another opportunity. Thank you.

  • #21278

    Dhamma123
    Participant

    In short: the point I’ve been trying to make here is that, violence is always undesirable and if you are a monk you make vows of renunciation to give up this world and thus you have more favorable conditions to carry out that practice.

    However, that might not always be the case for lay people. Lord Buddha was clear on this so I don’t see why there is a confusion about it. Buddhist countries are known for loving martial arts and they have very intimidating and disciplined armies.

  • #21279

    Lal
    Keymaster

    Dhamma123 said: “It’s not clear to you yet? Okay, I’ll share this Sutta with you to help you understand. https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.054.nara.html
    As you can see, violence is not always wrong or undesirable for a lay person as long as there is a necessity for it and it’s performed with a right intention.”

    Please copy and paste the section that says violence is appropriate for a lay person.

  • #21280

    Dhamma123
    Participant

    “What is the accomplishment of watchfulness?

    “Herein, Vyagghapajja, whatsoever wealth a householder is in possession of, obtained by dint of effort, collected by strength of arm, by the sweat of his brow, justly acquired by right means — such he husbands well by guarding and watching so that kings would not seize it, thieves would not steal it, fire would not burn it, water would not carry it away, nor ill-disposed heirs remove it. This is the accomplishment of watchfulness.

    See? There is a case for self defense when it is necessary.

    Anyway, does anybody want to answer my question about pain management?

  • #21281

    Lal
    Keymaster

    Dhamma123 said: “See? There is a case for self defense when it is necessary.”

    You are trying hard to twist what is meant there. “.guarding and watching so that kings would not seize it, thieves would not steal it, fire would not burn it, water would not carry it away, nor ill-disposed heirs remove it. This is the accomplishment of watchfulness.”

    That does not mean violence. That is how I live my life too, and I do not need to harm anyone. I take steps to PREVENT anyone from stealing. Please stop twisting Buddha Dhamma. You may not know this, but making false statements about Dhamma is worse than many others immoral actions.

    Dhamma123 said: “Anyway, does anybody want to answer my question about pain management?”

    One needs to go to a physician (take appropriate medicine) for physical pain management.

    In order to lessen self-induced mental suffering, one needs to stay away from dasa akusala; see, “Ten Immoral Actions (Dasa Akusala)

    This physical body that you have is a result of past kamma, some good and some bad. You got a human body because of some good kamma. If you have any physical ailments, that is due to a combination of your past bad kamma AND the way you live (how well you eat, exercise, etc).

    So, what we need to do is to make sure we don’t do anything immoral (including stop making false statements about Buddha Dhamma), live a simple life and do good deeds (kamma) so that we can have less suffering in the future.

  • #21282

    Dhamma123
    Participant

    Even though, I showed you proof of the opposite, you still believe that Lord Buddha told his LAY followers (because I repeat, he used the word “Bikkhu” when he said violence must be always avoided) to arbitrarily reject ANY sort of violence, even for righteous self defense.

    I’m happy you don’t live in an environment where people are abusive. But some of us have to deal with such people so you can’t and shouldn’t say what is necessary for everybody.

    And please read the suttas I sent to you cause you clearly didn’t get them.

  • #21283

    Dhamma123
    Participant

    “BIKKHUS, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: ‘Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.’ That’s how you should train yourselves.”

  • #21284

    Lal
    Keymaster

    ““BIKKHUS, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding.”

    This verse says, even if one does harm to you, don’t get angry. Even though that is advice for bhikkhus, that is what even a lay person should strive for, whenever possible.

    You said: “And please read the suttas I sent to you cause you clearly didn’t get them.”

    I have read those suttas and they do not recommend violence even to lay people. It is true that bhikkhus have more strict rules, but there is nowhere in the Tipitaka it says even lay people should resort to violence.

    This may not be a suitable forum for you. Just read about kamma and kamma vipaka before you make anymore senseless comments. Laws of kamma DO NOT distinguish between bhikkhus and lay people. Kamma vipaka for a given kamma are the same regardless of who does it.

  • #21287

    y not
    Participant

    Dhamma 123,

    It would be presumptuous of me to hope to ‘go one better’ than Lal trying to get you to understand this. So I can ‘interevene’ only to say:

    Lal understands DHAMMA correctly, and based on that says that Buddha never gave his consent to violence in ANY circumstance. I see you have difficulty accepting that.

    I suggest you take a neutral stand for the time being, not insisting that violence in self-defence may be justifiable, not accepting that it is not. Let go of it completely for a few days. Then it may happen that a significant point or aspect of it pops up in your mind uninvited. THEN get back.

    May you attain peace!

  • #21289

    Christian
    Participant

    Dhamma123 have so serious issues with himself and we would like to help you but you need to stop behaving like it’s our fault. Stop acting like a victim without any responsibilities. If you are not able to grow up as an adult and respect other people but trying to attacking them all the time and at the same time ask for help or anything it will not do anything well. If you would really looking for help you would not make a problem out of it.

    May you attain Nibbana and please do not pollute this forum with your rants as I explained it before people who rant they use to play “compassion card” on others. We clearly want to build stable and clear community here, if you want to be part of it try to adapt rather than make up your own excuses to act without any mindfulness.

  • #21298

    Lal
    Keymaster

    The Buddha has given clear instructions on how to answer a question in the
    Pañ­habyā­karaṇa ­Sutta (AN 4.42)“.

    Some questions definitely need to be answered,
    some need to be explained in detail,
    third type needs to be answered with a counter-question,
    and the fourth, should not be answered.

    I know that most of the questioners are sincere. However, it is really a distraction to try to answer some questions. And such questions/answers do not benefit many in the audience.

    I see some forums where people just make comments that go on on and do not provide any substance.
    – So, I will not answer some questions and leave it up to others to answer if they like.
    – I will not answer some questions that already have good answers from others.
    – I will delete some questions/answers if I decide that they are unlikely to lead to any benefit.

    P.S. Sometimes I am on travel or get tied up or just may not see a posted question/comment.

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