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“So how can an Arahant have vinnana?”
I can explain this only so many times. I have said so many times that an Arahant has “undefiled vinnana”. If you try to be a lawyer and not willing to understand Dhamma, there is not much I can do.
When the Buddha said, “I was born such and such a person” long time ago, he did not literally mean that. There is no “I” going from one birth to another. It is just continuing “lifestream” filled with suffering, that will end upon Parinibbana.
Somethings need to be just understood. There is simply no assigned special name for the vinnana of an Arahant. Those who understand what is meant by vinnana KNOW that vinnana of an Arahant is undefiled.
I will have no more comments on this issue.
I doubt whether kama guna have anything to do with citta types.
Kama guna are associated with bhava. For example, humans have a distaste for feces, but pigs enjoy it. Cows like grass but lions would not, etc.
upekkha said: “Recalling past memories: is that not done with the manasikara cetasika? Manasikara cetasika is part of the 7 universal cetasika that make up a pure citta before it degrades to vinnana..”
It is true that the manasikara cetasika “takes memories into account” during the arising of a citta. But those memories come from one’s five aggregates (rupakkhandha,….vinnanakkhandha).
Therefore, all five aggregates, including the vinnanakkhandha, remain with an Arahant. There is no special name assigned to the vinnanakkhandha of an Arahant.
– It is understood that the vinnana of an Arahant is pure or undefiled.
– To say it differently, there is no upadana (or cravings) for any of the five aggregates for an Arahant. Pancakkhandha is there, but no pancaupadanakkhandha.Tobias: You are right in the sense that one needs to go beyond mere “amoha” to have a tihetuka patisandhi. One needs to go to Abhidhamma to clarify this point.
I have not done a post on the eight types of kusala citta (I have done one on the 12 types of akusala citta in the Abhidhamma section).
In order to have a tihetuka patisandhi, one needs to do a kusala kamma with the first four types of kusala citta, which are “nanasampayutta” or “with knowledge”. Here with knowledge means “with the understanding that good kamma are bound to have good vipaka”.
This is discussed Bhikkhu Bodhi’s book “Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma” starting at p. 46.
– Similar explanation is likely to be in the pdf of Dr. Mehm Tin Mon.Obviously, an understanding of Tilakkhana is not necessary here to be “nanasampayutta”.
– One first gets a tihetuka patisandhi by doing a kusala kamma with that “basic understanding”. Then once born with that tihetuka birth, one would be able to comprehend Tilakkhana.Yes. aparapariyavedaniya basically means to be experienced in future lives. But it does not mean “forever”.
firewrns is right. Upon the death of an Arahant, he/she is not born in this world of 31 realms. He/she merges with Nibbana. Qualities of Nibbana cannot be explained in terms of our vocabulary because IT DOES NOT belong to this world. But it is a permanent state without any suffering.
Suffering is present in each and every realm in this world, but it is hard for normal humans to understand. That is why the Path has to be followed step-by-step without getting hang up in definitions. Just try to understand concepts at ones’ own level. I have no idea what level of understanding each person is at.
Here is the step-by-step process:
One needs to get rid of the 10 types miccha ditthi first. Then one needs to start comprehending Tilakkhana, and when one starts seeing “the futilty of existence in any realm” one attains the Sotapanna stage. Only after that one can see overcome the desries for sense pleasures and get to the Sakadagami/Anagami stages. Only at that time, one can fully comprehend that even those higher realms are filled with suffering.I suggest carefully reading the following two posts:
“Nibbāna – Is it Difficult to Understand?” (Especially see #7)
Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?
More posts on Nibbana at:
“Nibbana“I received an email about amoha and panna requesting further clarification.
Amoha means “without moha”, and moha is a mind that is covered for one with 10 types of miccha ditthi; see, “Lōbha, Dōsa, Mōha versus Rāga, Patigha, Avijjā“.
So, there is a huge difference between amoha and panna. Panna requires comprehension of Tilakkhana.
That is an incorrect translation. There is nothing in this world that lasts forever.
Only Nibbana, which is an asankata, lasts forever.
Kammic energies are sankata, created by the mind, via (abhi)sankhara.
Kammic energies are created by 7 javana citta. Javana citta start with “low intensity” in the first javana, and gain strength to about the fourth javana and then start decreasing in strength. So, by the time the seventh javana comes, it is weak. (imagine a sprinter starting from zero speed, gaining speed and then slowing down and coming to a stop).
So, kamma done with first javana citta are weak and can bring vipaka only during this life.
– Kamma done with the last javana is also weak and cannot bring vipaka beyond the next existence.
– The middle five javana are strong and can bring vipaka for a long time. I don’t think a specific time is given when that energy runs out. It probably varies for each citta vithi; some are more powerful than others.However, there is a sutta where the Buddha says that when one does an alms giving (dana), that good kamma vipaka can last for 91 maha kappas. A maha kappa is about 10 billion years, so it is like a trillion years. That is a long time, but not forever.
Yes. It does not CONTAMINATE beyond the mansan stage.
However, it incorporates all previous memories, and thus is still called vinnana and vinnanakkhandha (it is understood that for an Arahant those are undefiled).
You may want to read the following post to see how any khandha (rupakkhandha, etc, the five AGGREGATES) incorporate past, present, future,…11 types to make it to an aggregate (see #3):
Difference Between Rupa and RupakkhandhaWithout incorporating previous memories, an Arahant will not be able to recall past memories, etc.
So, the arising citta will not contaminate beyond the manasan stage, but will incorporate those 11 types to make it to an (undefiled) vinnanakkhandha or an aggregate.
“Do I have this correct:
1) Sobhana cetasika lead to good vinnana.2) An Arahant still has sobhana cetasikas.
3) A good vinnana is not contaminated.
4) An Arahant still has good vinnana.”
Yes. An Arahant has undefiled vinnana (one could call that “good vinnana”), which is attained at the optimum of the set of sobhana cetasika, that includes panna.
No. Different types of ñāna (insights) are gained while one is cultivating paññā.
For example, udayavaya ñāna and namarupa paricceda ñāna are gained before one can attain the Arahant stage. Of course, one attains the Atahant stage when one’s paññā is optimized.
Samma ñāna and paññā are both fulfilled at the Arahant stage.
Yes. There are many cases like this. We just need to evaluate them using Dhamma concepts. Buddha Dhamma is self-consistent.
- Anyone may act with amoha at times, but panna needs to be cultivated (by comprehending Tilakkhana).
- To comprehend Tilakkhana fully (and thus to cultivate panna to the fullest), one must have a tihetuka birth.
- To get a tihetuka birth one must be born with a kamma done with alobha, adosa, amoha. That is why it is called Tihetuka.
- Therefore, amoha is a pe-requisite to be able to cultivate panna.
That is why amoha is not panna.
upekkha100: It does not say good roots are removed; please read it carefully. It says, those kamma done with good roots will not bring vipaka anymore.
That is because, one has cultivated all sobhana cetasika (including panna) to the optimum (so the good roots are working at optimum), and thus will not grasp a new bhava via, “vedana paccaya tanha“, “tanha paccaya upadana“, and “upadana paccaya bhava“.
– When there is no new bhava, there will no new jati to experience even those good kamma.This is an important point. So, let me explain a bit more.
Just because there are causes, the results WILL NOT follow if CONDITIONS are removed.
– That is what is explained in Paticca Samuppada.For example, a seed may last thousands of years, but WILL NOT bring about a tree unless suitable conditions (i.e., soil, water, sunlight, etc) become available.
One’s good kamma beeja may be there, but they will NEVER get an opportunity to germinate once one removes the “bad three roots” and cultivates the “good three roots” to the extent that one will never go through the steps in Paticca Samuppada starting with “vedana paccaya tanha”..
firewns said: “There are those who crave to be loved, respected and admired. Others want to feel that they are living a life that matters, even though unbeknownst to them, they can never really live a truly meaningful life, unless it is to seek a way out of an ultimately meaningless existence (with anatta nature).
Are those subtle forms of bhavasava?”
That could be due to bhavasava (craving for existence: “I want to live”) and avijjasava (ignorance of the suffering associated with any existence).
Kamasava (craving for sense pleasures) is not there, and one may or may not have removed ditthasava (a Sotapanna could have such a mindset and even an Anagami to some extent).
However, if that mindset is not permanent, i.e., if cravings for sense pleasures comes back even once, that means one still have kamasava (as anusaya or hidden) as well.
– If ditthasava is there, kamasava is definitely there.
– Those asava are removed in the following order: ditthasava (Sotapanna), kamasava (Anagami), bhavasava and avijjasava (Arahant).
