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Thank you, AxelSnaxel, for pointing these out.
I just added that reference to the post, “Sansaric Time Scale, Buddhist Cosmology, and the Big Bang Theory”.
You wrote: “In Power of the Human Mind – Anariya or Mundane Jhānas under the section on “Extrasensory Perceptions and Powers (Abhiññā)”. It says you can attain various types of powers after you reach arahant..”.
– That is correct. And as you pointed out that could be done at lower levels of magga phala too, if one wanted.
– Furthermore, some of such powers can be attained by anariya yogis too.You wrote: “And then it says that the Buddha discouraged pursuing such powers and prohibited public display of them..”
– That is correct. He prohibited displaying such powers for mundane purposes. For example, one time a wealthy person put a very expensive alms bowl at the top of a long pole and advertised that anyone who get that bowl by flying through the air will own it. A bhikkhu who was in need of a bowl retrieved it by flying through air. That was a display of “magical powers” and that prompted the Buddha to instill that Vinaya rule.
– But there are instances where such powers were used for good purposes, even by the Buddha himself.
– Of course the Buddha minimized such uses. In most cases, the Buddha just walked for miles and miles to get to destination, without getting there “instantly” by using such powers.
– But I remember one account in the Tipitaka where the Buddha and 500 Arahants crossed a raging river at a time of a flood, using iddhi powers. They did not have another option.Just published a post clarifying some of these issues. Please feel free to ask questions if something is not clear. It is important to get things clarified before proceeding any further.
“Clarification of “Mental Body” and “Physical Body” – Different Types of “Kāya”“.
Akvan wrote: “The Buddha said that the Dhamma is something completely unknown to anyone at that time. But people at that time had seen the suffering in the re-birth process (i.e. the hell worlds, animal realms etc.). So the dukkha sachcha cannot simply be the suffering in the re-birth process but something a bit more subtle that no one could fathom.”
This is a very dangerous idea, but it is a very common idea. This is why we have been trapped in this rebirth process for so long.
Here are some key points to think about:
1. The most fundamental concept in Buddha Dhamma is “bhava” + “uddha” or “stopping future bhava (existences) from arising”. So, yes, that is what the Buddha taught: How to stop the rebirth process and to end ANY and ALL suffering.
– The word “Buddha” itself comes from “bhava” + “uddha”, meaning a Buddha is the one who finds the way to stop bhava (and jati) from arising and to attain Nibbana (end of suffering).2. Please carefully read the first sutta of the Buddha: Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. He said, “ayam antima jati, nattidani punabbhavo” or “this is my last birth, no more rebirths for me”.
3. He told bhikkhus, “I teach you how to END the suffering”. Suffering cannot be completely stopped from arising as long as one is in the rebirth process.
4. The First Noble Truth is not just that “there is unbearable suffering in the apayas”. Of course, many ancient yogis knew that, and saw that for themselves. But they could not figure out HOW to stop those births in the apayas. Yogis like Alara Kalama thought cultivating jhanas and getting a birth in a brahma realm will keep one away from the apayas. They thought that was the “end of suffering”.
5. If one understand the First Noble Truth, then one WILL know that there is suffering in all 31 realms. Any bhava (and jati) ends up in suffering. Even in deva and brahma realms, one may live without much suffering for most of those lives, but it INEVITABLY comes back in spades at the end. When a deva is getting close to death, the beautiful body starts decaying, and it becomes clear that the “end is near”. That is the real suffering, because that deva would not know whether the next birth in the apayas.
6. This becomes clear when one carefully looks at Paticca Samuppada: It starts with “avijja paccaya sankhara” and ends with, “jati paccaya jara, marana, ..”. As long as one generates sankhara (whether it is apunnabhisankhara, punnabhisankhara, or anenjabhi sankhara), one WILL end up with suffering.
– Apunnabhisankhara lead to rebirth in the apayas.
– Punnabhisankhara lead to rebirth in the human, deva, and rupavacara brahma realms.
– Anenjhabhi sankhara lead to rebirths in the arupavacara brahma realms.– “Avijja paccaya sankhara” include all three kinds of sankhara.
– Suffering CANNOT be ENDED without SEEING the futility of staying in the rebirth process.
– In other words, NO BIRTH in the 31 realms can be maintained to one’s satisfaction. ANY birth will end up in suffering, at least the end (death), where the suffering is most felt. That is called anicca nature.(P.S. By the way, this is why the Buddha said: “sabbe sankhara anicca” and “sabbe sankhara dukkha“).
7. When one understands the First Noble Truth, one would have understood OTHER THREE Noble Truths too: The causes of suffering (any kind of sankhara), end of suffering is the same as stopping the causes for suffering, and the way to achieve that.
– This is why it is said that the First Noble Truth is not just about KNOWING that there is suffering. One must understand HOW that suffering arises due to apunnabhisankhara, punnabhisankhara, and anenjabhisankhara.
– Then one would realize the anicca nature: that as long as one is in the rebirth process, one will NEVER be able to PERMANENTLY remove future suffering.I hope Johnny can now see the problem with his statement: ““The Buddha said that the Dhamma is something completely unknown to anyone at that time. But people at that time had seen the suffering in the re-birth process…”.
– Just KNOWING that suffering exists in the rebirth process is not enough. One needs to understand Paticca Samuppada and realizes HOW that suffering ARISES due to avijja and tanha (craving for worldly things).
– P.S. All our actions, speech, and thoughts are generated via sankhara, and thus generate kammic energy (and strongest of those lead to future rebirths); this is what was discussed in the post in question: “Viññāna and Sankhāra – Connection to Paticca Samuppāda“.
– And one cannot get rid of tanha until one realizes the unfruitful nature of ALL realms, the anicca nature. One CANNOT maintain any existence in ANY realm. All existences (bhava) eventually lead to suffering.y not wrote: “Surely, Lal, you are not saying that all the beings had a human form once back on the physical Earth? This is what I find that may be misleading. As you state later: those “early brhama-like humans”.
I know it is hard to deal with our perceptions of a “body” being massive.
– However, the manomaya kaya of a brahma is a billion times smaller than an atom! We cannot even see an atom.
– So, yes, there can be many trillions of “humans with brahma-like bodies” on Earth. They hardly take any space.
– I know it is automatic to immediately visualize the picture of a human with a heavy body. But those early humans were very different, almost like brahmas.The fact that brahmas have “very fine bodies” was discussed in previous posts. But I know that reading a post is not enough to get the “right perception”. That is why it is good to contemplate on issues like what we are addressing now. It forces one to really think about the details.
Another way to think about this is the following: When one cultivates even anariya jhana to the fourth jhana, one could come out of the physical body with a manomaya kaya that is somewhat similar to the manomaya kaya of a brahma. Then one can travel with that “brahma-like body” even to brahma realms (which is really “space travel”). This is stated in many suttas, for example, Sāmaññaphala Sutta (DN 2).
By the way, “anusaya” may be a better word than “gati” in my previous post (of course, they are inter-related).
“So the statement ‘all beings started out as humans’ could be very misleading.”
No. That is a correct statement FOR THAT TIME at the beginning of a new maha kappa. By the end of the previous maha kappa all beings in all apayas, human realm, deva realms, and a few lower brahma realms moved up to that brahma realm, which was not affected by the destruction of the other realms. Not a single living being could survive in those realms.
ALL BEINGS gradually move up to that brahma realm, NOT because their gati had changed. All pleasing things the world were gradually being destroyed. So, gradually less and less things the world were appealing to the senses. We could say, they were FORCED to give up cravings.
– Of course, seeing the devastation around (this happened over a long time, over hundreds of millions of years), it is possible that more and more people could have become more “religious” too.
– Since those gati had not changed significantly, those old gati started to take hold gradually in those “early brhama-like humans” (P.S. even better to say that anusaya or “hidden defilements” start to re-surface). That is how those early humans lost their supernormal powers. Of course, those with worse gati were the first to become animals, hell beings, etc. That happened over billions of years.On the issue of human birth being rare: When the Buddha stated how rare the human birth is, that is regarding “normal times” on Earth, like the present time.
It is good to contemplate on these issues. We also need to think about the time scales involved (millions and billions of years).
“Is this the same as saying that the first humans on earth were human gandhabbas?”
Not really. Those early humans “came down” from the Abhassara brahma realm and were very similar to those brahmas.
– Brahmas do not need food. Human gandhabbas of the present time do need to inhale aroma (that is how they get a bit more dense bodies).
– At that time, there was nothing on Earth to provide such aroma.
– After long times, Earth became populated with plants, and then animals. At that time they probably started inhaling aroma, and thus began the gradual process towards physical bodies built with cells. It was a gradual process.
– Even today, when a human bhava first starts, that manomaya kaya (of the gandhabba) is close to that of a brahma, but those gadnhabbas start inhaling aroma soon, and get a “bit more dense” than brahmas who have just a few suddhashtaka (hadaya vatthu and a few pasada rupa).
– Those suddhashtaka are much, much smaller than even an electron, which is one of the smaller fundamental particles in physics.It is true that the Tipitaka cannot be expected to have ALL the details.
As one learns Dhamma and progresses, one would be able to “fill in the gaps” by oneself.However, there are key insights that only a Buddha is able to see. For example, I have explained why a citta vithi has 17 cittas; see, “Gandhabba (Manomaya Kaya)- Introduction“.
– But an actual citta vithi can be seen only by Buddha. He explained it to Ven. Sariputta and that is how it was incorporated to the Abhidhamma Piṭaka.
– Even then it is not easy to to grasp that process, unless one is truly interested.Whether a sotadvara citta vithi (generated by a Noble Person) is necessary to trigger the Sotapanna magga and phala citta in a listener (while listening to a discourse by a Noble Person) cannot be figured out by us.
– Note that sotadvara citta vithi means a citta vithi generated by an arammana (sound) coming through the ear.
– It may not be necessary, but if the Tipitaka says it is necessary (or discuss that particular sotadvara citta vithi), then we would have confidence in that fact.Tobias wrote: “Plants are alive but not sentient. They do not have a mind. There are people who lovingly or evilly speak to cooked rice. The rice reacts with a certain consistency or just rottenness. How can this be explained in terms of Buddha Dhamma?”
As Christian says, the mind can affect our environment too. I think Tobias may be referring to the following video posted by Eric (we have not heard from him recently!): “The Rice Experiment (Video)“.
– See my comments there.Regarding the recent post, “Human Life – A Mental Base (Gandhabba) and a Material Base (Cell)“, Tobias asks:
“Under #9 it is said: “…However, the first cells that appeared in the Earth were created by kammic energy (in javana cittas)…”
Also somewhere on this website Lal said that the evolution theory of Darwin is not correct (evolution through natural selection).
I do not understand how the first dinosaur or the first elephant or the first human appeared on earth.”This is a very good question. But a proper answer requires more background. I am in the process of laying out that background.
– Darwin’s theory of evolution is not correct only for the evolution of a human. Humans were the first to appear on the newly-formed Earth. But those humans had “brahma-like” bodies, and no physical bodies with cells.
– Humans actually evolved “downward”, losing their ability to travel through the air like brahmas, ability to see and hear without eyes and ears, etc. They did not have to eat, just like brahmas.
– But over billions of years, they gradually evolved to have physical bodies, as I mentioned briefly in the last post.
– The rest of the species are likely to have evolved according to Darwin’s theory. First came bacteria and helped to generate oxygen in the atmosphere. Then came plants, and then came the animals who needed plants for their survival. By that time, humans had evolved to have bodies like ours and humans needed food via plants too. That time sequence is also laid out in the Agganna Sutta (without such details).That is a brief summary. I hope you can get a rough idea. As I said, there are many other factors coming into play. It is wonderful to have the modern scientific knowledge available to clarify those teachings in the Agganna Sutta.
P.S. Nature (driven by laws of kamma), does the minimum necessary to get the “ball rolling”. The first cells were created by kammic energy. Everything is consistent with modern science. It is just that modern science does not yet know the power of mind energy (kammic energy) created by those javana citta.
Johnny asked:”When a zygote is impregnated with a gandhabba, any effort from this point forward to terminate life, is it considered as committing panatipata?”
Yes. Once the gandhabba (or the patisandhi vinnana) descends to the womb and “takes possession” of the zygote, there is another human life in the womb. Any attempt to kill that life (via abortion) is killing a human being; see, “Buddhist Explanations of Conception, Abortion, and Contraception“.
“Another question is, can a gandhabba attain sotāpanna magga and/or phala?”
That is an interesting question. In principle I don’t see why not. But I have not seen a Tipitaka account of a gaandhabba attaining magga phala or the Sotapanna Anugami stage.
“Can I view the gandhabba state akin to a traveller (after acquiring a new patisandhi viññāna) who is inside the airport transit lounge, waiting for the right time to enter the holding area and eventually board the plane that will bring him to the next destination?”
The situation is better described by the case of a human operator inside a totally enclosed military tank. Here the human operator is analogous to gandhabba, and the military tank is like the physical body. The human operator cannot see, hear anything outside the tank, without the help of video and audio equipment mounted on the tank. In the same way, gandhabba cannot see, hear anything without the help of the physical eyes and ears on the physical body; see, “Our Mental Body – Gandhabba“.
– Of course, the gandhabba can see, hear by itself once OUTSIDE the human body. That is what happens in Out-of-Body experiences;see, “Manomaya Kaya and Out-of-Body Experience (OBE)” and “Gandhabba Sensing the World – With and Without a Physical Body“.Another related point is that manomaya kaya is the more generic name for the “mental body”. All living beings have manomaya kaya. Gandhabba is generally reserved for the mental bodies (manomaya kaya) of humans and animals. That is because, those human and animal manomaya kaya can inhale scents (gandha + abba, or “taking in odors”) and become a bit more dense.
P.S. I have revised the post in question, “Human Life – A Mental Base (Gandhabba) and a Material Base (Cell)” to make this clear.I just revised that post to include this comment:
“I still have not seen a definitive Tipitaka reference regarding this issue. However, all suttas on the conditions for attaining Sōtapanna stage list saddhammassavanaṃ (saddhamma + savanaṃ or “listening to Dhamma”) as one condition, as in #1 above. Since written texts were not available at the time of the Buddha, this is not definitive as a condition.”The post in question is: “Viññāna and Sankhāra – Connection to Paticca Samuppāda“.
Johnny asked: “In the most absolute sense, is the Ariyan Dukkha Sacca referring to rebirth suffering OR the mental vexation that entails when a person’s sense faculties take in inputs from the various external sense objects, and consequently delighting in the this and that, delighting in the here and now? ”
The main achievement is eliminating suffering in the rebirth process.
– But any suffering due to “mental vexation” even during this life is stopped for an Arahant.
– What remains for this life for an Arahant is any PHYSICAL suffering (injuries, sicknesses, etc) that arise due to kamma vipaka.
– Of course, ALL SUFFERING is stopped at the death of an Arahant (Parinibbana).Johnny wrote: ” the Buddha said before that his Dhamma is Sanditthiko (to be seen here and now), Akaliko (not delayed in time). ”
– Dhamma CAN BE seen in this lfe and Arahanthood IS attained in this life. Even though relatively insignificant physical suffering due to kamma vipaka remain for an Arahant, that is negligible due to suffering that could be encountered in future births for billions of years to come.
– “Akalika” DOES NOT mean “not delayed in time”. It means that Buddha Dhamma DOES NOT CHANGE with time. Whether there is a Buddha in the world or not, the laws of nature as described by Buddha Dhamma are valid and enforced by Nature. It is just that no one would know about them in the absence of a Buddha Sasana.P.S. “Sanditthika” (“San” + “ditthika” or “”seeing defilements”) — and removing those defilements — starts at the Sotapanna Anugami stage, and completed at the Arahant stage; see, “What is “San”? Meaning of Sansāra (or Samsāra)” and related posts.
Akmal wrote: ” I wanted to ask if phenomena such as spirit possession being done either willingly by a spirit/mara/yaksa/demon or through black magic is effective on Ariyas or those with Noble attainments.”
Relevant basic ideas are discussed in the post, “What Does Buddha Dhamma Say about Creator, Satan, Angels, and Demons?“.
Mara is different from other “bad beings”. Mara is a deva in the highest deva realm. He wants people to engage in moral activities and to be reborn as devas. But he is opposed to Buddha and his disciples because he thinks attaining Nibbana is bad.
– However, other bad beings who are in either the lower realms or the first deva realm tend to try to direct people to do “bad things”.Neither type can harm true disciples of the Buddha, especially those who have attained magga phala.
Now, PEOPLE doing “black magic” is a different topic. Yes. I know that in Sri Lanka (especially in the old days), some people used to do certain things (“black magic”) to try to harm their enemies. But that practice losing ground now, because people are more informed.
– I do not really know whether those practices are effective or not.
– However, just like good thoughts can positively affect other people, bad thoughts can negatively affect targeted people. That is especially true if the “targeted person” has bad character qualities.The bottom line is that if one lives a moral life and follow the Noble Path, one cannot be influenced by such external forces. It is those with bad character and weak minds who can be affected.
– People in Asian Buddhist countries also play “sutta chantings” in their houses regularly. I remember that it was done every morning while getting ready for school/work.
– That could have an effect of “keeping bad beings away” too. It is also conducive to a calm mindset; see, “Buddhist Chanting“.One should also keep one’s house/environment clean. That can have a significant effect on one’s mindset. A simple, moral life goes together with simple, clean environment.
– Just like bad character qualities tend to attract bad friends, unclean environment will attract flies, cockroaches, mice, etc. and make that environment even more unhealthy.
– If one can visit a temple especially in Asian countries, one can clearly see that it is a simple and clean environment for a positive mindset, and that it is conducive to contemplation (bhavana).These are questions that require some deep thinking.
“all a being is made up of are the 5 khandhas” may give a wrong impression.
Five khanadhas include EVERYTHING one has gone through from a beginning-less time.
They are almost all our memories AND future plans.This is emphasized in the post, “Pancakkhandha or Five Aggregates – A Misinterpreted Concept“.
– For example, rupakkhandha consists of 11 types of rupa: “Eleven types of rupa (mental impressions) are in the rupakkhandha: past, present, future, near, far, fine (sukuma), coarse (olarika), likes (panita), dislikes (appanita), internal (ajjhatta), and external (bahiddha)”.
– Need to think about the above statement, “all a being is made up of are the 5 khandhas” with that in mind.You wrote: “There is one instance in the suttas, in the Jataka, where the Buddha is greeted by a brahmin and later by his wife with ‘ Where have you been, my son, all this time’ ? The Buddha later showed the connection : they had been His parents for 500 successive human births..”
Yes. Those are the past pancakkhandha (memories about past rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana).
You wrote: “Where in the being are these memories ‘lodged’?”
They are in the “nama loka”, which is accessible by the mana indriya (i.e., recalling past memories).
– This is similar to using the five physical senses (cakkhu indriya, etc) to see, hear, etc of rupa in the “rupa loka”.
– More information at: “Our Two Worlds : Material and Mental”This requires some extended thinking. I suggest to read those posts and ask more questions if needed. As I said, not many people have grasped these deeper points.
If one really needs to get a good handle, one should read “The Five Aggregates (Pancakkhandha)”
-I have not had a chance to review those posts recently. This may be a good time to for an discussion.AxelSnaxel is correct. Those pannavimutti arahants have not cultivated jhana, and thus are not able to recall previous lives.
– So, I simply deleted that sentence in the post.However, people who cultivate even anariya jhana to higher jhanic states can recall past lives. Some of these abilities just come from previous lives (for those who had cultivated such higher jhanas in previous lives), which may be what y not is referring to.
Thanks for pointing it out, AxelSnaxel. The goal is to have full inter-consistency within the website and also with the Tipitaka.
Yes. This is a good topic where people can report inconsistencies they find.
