Indriya bhavana/good deeds/ayatana

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This topic contains 48 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  Lal 2 months, 1 week ago.

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  • #20880

    upekkha100
    Participant

    Indriya and Āyatana – Big Difference

    This is what I understood from that post:
    1) when one does just sankhara(neither moral nor immoral actions. kammicly neutral actions. Does not extend the rebirth process) the sense faculties are just indriya. No tanha involved. None of the 6 root causes(lobha/dosa/moha and alobha/adosa/amoha) are involved.

    2) when one does apunnabhisankhara(immoral deeds. Negatively kammicly potent. Extends the rebirth process), the sense faculties are no longer just indriya, but now have become ayatana. Tanha involved. The 3 akusala mula/bad root causes (lobha/dosa/moha) are involved.

    The following quote from #4 of this post says:
    “In simplest terms,  indriya become  āyatana when we deliberately use the indriya to accumulate abhisankhāra.”

    As I’ve learned here, abhisankhara is not only apunnabhisankhara(immoral deeds) but punnabhisankhara(moral deeds) as well.

    Question:
    1) When one does punnabhisankhara, are the sense faculties ayatana here as well?

    Example: If people use their bodies to help the needy, then this too would be kāyātana rather than kaya indriya? I’d think it is, because punnabisankhara is positively kammicly potent. And the 3 kusala mula/good root causes alobha/adosa/amoha are involved. While good and NECESSARY for the Path in the beginning stages, these actions also extend the
    rebirth process.

    My understanding of indriya bhavana:
    The goal of indriya bhavana like the other Buddha Dhamma bhavanas, is to stop the sansaric journey. To end rebirth. To stop bad deeds. And to do good deeds. But when we do good deeds, to eventually make these good deeds not be rooted in alobha/adosa/amoha. Arahants have eliminated the 3 bad roots AND the 3 good roots alobha/adosa/amoha as well. However Arahants still do good deeds despite not having the 3 good roots. Their good deeds are not rooted in alobha/adosa/amoha, their good deeds come from purity(absence of all the 6 roots).

    The 6 roots, whether bad roots or good roots, both are part of this world. If one continues to use either, one will remain in this world and be reborn after death. The purity(absence of the 6 roots causes of existence) of Buddhas and Arahants are not of this world, that is why they will not be reborn.

    This made me wonder if that common phrase “too pure for this world” has its origins in Buddha Dhamma. Because Buddhas and Arahants are literally too pure for this world, so much so, that it seems this corrupt world can not contain them.

    So that no one gets the wrong impression: Of course this is very far in the journey, near the last stages of Nibbana, not in the beginning. Like I said before, good deeds are essential/necessary tools for Nibbana, they are part of the Noble Eightfold Path.
    Without good deeds, Nibbana will be difficult to attain.

  • #20882

    Lal
    Keymaster

    upekkha100:

    “1) When one does punnabhisankhara, are the sense faculties ayatana here as well?”

    Yes. Punnabhisankhara also lead to rebirths. Even though they are in “good realms”, the rebirth process will continue. As long as one is in the rebirth process without attaining a magga phala, one is likely to be reborn in an apaya at some point.
    – Yes. In this case also indriya are used as ayatana.

    Another thing to keep mind is that punna kamma become kusala kamma if there is no greed or avijja associated with that act. The that would not count towards rebirth.
    – For example, if one donates something out of pure compassion, that is a kusala kamma. It could become just a punna kamma if there are “any expectations” for that giving.
    – In any case, one should definitely do such acts without worrying too much about that distinction. Getting rebirths in good realms is a must until one gets to a magga phala.

    Regarding indriya bhavana:
    You said: ‘But when we do good deeds, to eventually make these good deeds not be rooted in alobha/adosa/amoha.”

    Actually, when one’s understanding increases, one’s wisdom (panna) will grow. Then one would be AUTOMATICALLY doing most deeds with panna or with understanding of the anicca nature.
    – Then one would be doing more deeds with metta, karuna,mudita, upekkha.The higher the understanding, the more power those thoughts will have.
    – So, that is not something easy to force. It comes with understanding.

    You said: “Without good deeds, Nibbana will be difficult to attain.”
    Exactly right. One should NEVER shy away from punna kamma. As our understanding grows, those will automatically become kusala kamma. We don’t need to worry whether they are punna kamma or kusala kamma.

    • #20883

      Yeos
      Participant

      @Lal said “Then that would not count towards rebirth. ”

      The above should be understood as kusala kamma not having any influence
      upon rebirth?

  • #20885

    Lal
    Keymaster

    Yeos said: “The above should be understood as kusala kamma not having any influence upon rebirth?”

    Yes. It does. Kusala kamma help one attain Nibbana, or stop the rebirth process, starting with rebirths in the four lowest realms at the Sotapanna stage.
    – Punna kamma help with that too, since they help one avoid rebirths in the apayas: “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Punna and Pāpa Kamma“.

    Most of us cannot understand yet why one needs to stop rebirths in all realms. That does not need to be contemplated until one gets to the Anagami stage.

    • #20887

      Yeos
      Participant

      @Lal Said

      “Most of us cannot understand yet why one needs to stop rebirths in all realms.

      The intellectual understanding of the “why” it’s not difficult…
      but what is your understanding on the subject ?

  • #20888

    Lal
    Keymaster

    “The intellectual understanding of the “why” it’s not difficult…
    but what is your understanding on the subject ?”

    I have understood the need to stop rebirth in all realms. I have no desire to be reborn anywhere in the 31 realms.

    But I have not yet removed the “sanna” or the perception of “asmi mana” or a “self”. This is a complex subject and that is all I am going to say on that.

  • #20893

    upekkha100
    Participant

    Lal said:
    “Then one would be AUTOMATICALLY doing most deeds with panna or with understanding of the anicca nature. Then one would be doing more deeds with metta, karuna,mudita, upekkha.The higher the understanding, the more power those thoughts will have. ”

    Buddhas and Arahants have eradicated not only all of the asobhana cetasika(that stem from the 3 bad roots) but all of the sobhana cetasika(that stem from the 3 good roots) as well.

    Panna, mudita, karuna are sobhana cetasika.

    Yet Buddhas and Arahants not only have panna/mudita/karuna, but these are at incomparable levels too(meaning: their level of karuna can’t be compared to the boundless karuna of even a brahma for example).

    Question:
    If they no longer have the 3 good roots nor any of the sobhana cetasika, where does their panna/mudita/karuna stem from? Surely not rooted in anything, but as a result of a purity(absence of all 6 roots)?

  • #20894

    Lal
    Keymaster

    I think the key is “ragakkhayo Nibbanam,dosakkhayo Nibbanam,mohakkhayo Nibbanam”.

    Nibbana is attained by eliminating greed, hate, and ignorance (of the Four Noble Truths) completely.

    When that happens, one would have cultivated ALL sobhana cetasika to the maximum. So, it is not correct to say that any sobhana cetasika (including metta, karuna, etc) would be eliminated.

    Sobhana cetasika also include alobha and adosa. amoha comes via the panna (wisdom) cetasika; see, “Cetasika (Mental Factors)“.

    What happens is the when panna is optimum, one not only sees the futility of staying in the rebirth process, but one’s sanna and citta will also be automatically adjusted to that.

    Then one’s mind will not grasp (upadana) any bhava at the cuti-patisandhi moment.

    If I have stated that alobha, adosa, amoha will also be removed at Nibbana, please let me know.

  • #20895

    upekkha100
    Participant

    Lal wrote:
    “If I have stated that alobha, adosa, amoha will also be removed at Nibbana, please let me know.”

    From the following two posts:
    The Grand Unified Theory of Dhamma – Introduction

    From #1:
    “Causes are numerous, but the root causes are six: greed, hate, ignorance, non-greed, non-hate, and non-ignorance. When all such causes are removed, Nibbana results. Since it does not arise due to causes, Nibbana is permanent. One actually strives to remove greed, hate, and ignorance, which are “san”. When this is done, other three causes are automatically removed. This is the key to Nibbana, as laid out in the Noble Eightfold Path.”

    Six Root Causes – Loka Samudaya (Arising of Suffering) and Loka Nirodhaya (Nibbana)

    From #5:
    1) “When  one’s paññā becomes optimum at the Arahant stage, all six root causes would have been removed. ”

    2)”Therefore, all six root causes lead to the continuation of the rebirth process. “

  • #20913

    Lal
    Keymaster

    Thank you very much, upekkha100!

    I just revised both those posts to make necessary corrections.

    Please let me know any kind of mistakes. We want this site to be “error free” as much as possible. I do make mistakes (there could be some especially in older posts), and I would appreciate anyone pointing out any errors.

  • #20997

    upekkha100
    Participant

    The revision states:

    “The three good roots non-greed, non-hate, and non-ignorance are not removed, but the CONDITIONS (tanhā and upādāna) for them to lead to rebirth are removed at that time. Therefore, one will not be reborn even in the “good realms.”

    As I’ve learned, there is a difference between cause and condition. They are not the same. One needs both for the result/fruit. Cannot just have the cause and expect the result; need the condition as well. Cannot just have the condition and expect the result; need the cause as well.

    Cause+no condition=no result
    No cause+ condition= no result
    Cause+condition=result

    Seed + no (nutrients/sun/water)= no fruit
    No seed+ (nutrients/sun/water)= no fruit
    Seed+(nutrients/sun/water)= fruit

    In the Second Noble Truth, tanha is said to be the cause.

    In Paticca Samupada tanha paccaya upadana step, tanha is the condition.

    Question:
    Is tanha the cause or condition? Or both depending on the situation?

  • #21006

    Lal
    Keymaster

    “Question:
    Is tanha the cause or condition? Or both depending on the situation?”

    Tanha can be cause or condition. Same for avijja. Both are root causes (related to lobha and moha).

    Both of them will remain as anusaya until the Arahant stage is reached.

    But they are not there all the time. They may be activated by a strong sense input.

    Of course, BOTH will be lost at the same time. There can be no tanha if avijja is removed and vice versa.

  • #21020

    upekkha100
    Participant

    Do I have this correct:

    Before the revision:
    1) an Arahant would have none of the 6 root causes of existence.
    2) 3 Good causes would have been automatically removed AFTER removing the 3 bad causes.

    After the revision:
    1) Only the 3 bad causes of existence are removed.
    2) The 3 good causes of existence remain. They still have the 3 good causes of existence. And are at their maximum too. However, the conditions are removed. Hence why no bad rebirth nor good rebirth will emerge because the Arahant will not upadana neither the bad kamma beeja nor upadana the good kamma beeja?

  • #21039

    Lal
    Keymaster

    “Do I have this correct:

    Before the revision:
    1) an Arahant would have none of the 6 root causes of existence.
    2) 3 Good causes would have been automatically removed AFTER removing the 3 bad causes.

    After the revision:
    1) Only the 3 bad causes of existence are removed.
    2) The 3 good causes of existence remain. They still have the 3 good causes of existence. And are at their maximum too. However, the conditions are removed. Hence why no bad rebirth nor good rebirth will emerge because the Arahant will not upadana neither the bad kamma beeja nor upadana the good kamma beeja?”

    Yes.

  • #21043

    upekkha100
    Participant

    Here are few quotes from various posts:

    1) “Depending on the combinations of cetasika that arise with citta, there will be 89 (or 121) types contaminated citta (or viññāṇa) that can arise. This will become clear as we discuss further. ”

    2) “Consciousness (viññāṇa) discussed in this section does NOT take account the fact that consciousness of any living being (other than an Arahant) is contaminated by defilements. This our awareness is not pure; it is like looking though a foggy window ”

    3) ” However, the citta of a sentient being gets “contaminated” by other cetasika as soon as it arises. Within the lifetime of a citta (which is less than a billionth of a second), it progressively gets contaminated by “good” or “bad” cetasika, and this happens in nine stages.”

    4) “As discussed in “Citta and Cetasika – How Viññāṇa (Consciousness) Arises”, it is those additional cetasika that provide “color” to a citta: if a set of “good cetasika” arise with the citta it becomes a
    “good thought” or a “good viññāṇa”; if it is a set of “bad cetasika” , then the thought or the viññāṇa
    is bad (those cetasika do not mix). ”

    Vinnana is after the contamination of a set of citta correct?
    There is dosa vinnana.
    There is karuna vinnana.
    Dosa vinnana has one of the 3 bad roots/causes.
    Karuna vinnana has one of the 3 good roots/causes.
    Both are contaminated.
    Both happen beyond the manasan stage.

    An Arahant’s citta does not go beyond the manasan stage.
    So how can an Arahant still have the 3 good causes/roots.
    How can an Arahant still have the sobhana cetasika at maximum levels?

    Knowing the answer to the above, I’d like to make a case for a thought I had:
    I think there are 2 sets of panna/karuna/metta/mudita/upekkha.

    One set is a result of:
    -temporarily suppressing lobha/dosa/moha and maximizing alobha/adosa/amoha.
    -The kind a brahma would have(hence brahmavihara).
    -Are the anariya version.
    -Are cetasikas.
    -Are contaminated.
    -Are based in avijja.

    The other set as a result of:
    -permanently removing all 6 roots: lobha/dosa/moha and alobha/adosa/amoha.
    -A result of a pure radiant “luminous” mind.
    -Result of pabhassara citta.
    -This panna/karuna/metta/mudita/upekkha is the default state of the mind before it gets contaminated with the 6 roots/6 defilements/6 san.
    -Panna/karuna/metta/mudita/upekkha is the natural state of the uncontaminated mind.
    -The Ariya version(especially that of an Arahant).
    -Are not cetasikas.
    -Are uncontaminated.
    -Are not based in avijja.

    1) Pabhassara citta= pure mind
    2) Asobhana cetasika= pure mind now contaminated with 3 bad roots
    3) Sobhana cetasika= pure mind now contaminated with 3 good roots

    Using a similar example used at this site:
    1) glass of pure water
    2) Add mud to it and it will no longer be pure.
    3) Add gems to it, the water will still no longer be in it’s original pure default/natural state.

    The mud is dirty/ugly like asobhana cetasika(asobhana means not beautiful). If it enters a thought, the thought is no longer pure, it is ugly/unwholesome.

    While the gems are good and “pretty/beautiful” like sobhana cetasika(sobhana means beautiful right?), if they enter a thought, this too is no longer pure. Beautiful yes, but not pure.

    1) Pabhassara citta= Pure water. Original default/natural state.
    2) Asobhana cetasika= mud
    3) Sobhana cetasika= gems

    Goodness/wholesomeness/morality is the default/natural state of the uncontaminated mind. It does not need the sobhana cetasika to be good. An anariya needs the sobhana cetasika to be good and to do good. An Arahant does not. This is why what was written before the revision made much more sense to me: “One actually strives to remove greed, hate, and ignorance, which are “san”. When this is done, other three causes are automatically removed. ”

    I just need to back this up with something from the Tipitaka. The best I have is the
    Pabhassara Sutta for now.

    “Luminous, monks, is the mind.And it is defiled by incoming defilements.” 
    Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements.” 

    Panna/metta/karuna/mudita/upekkha is the default “luminous” state of the uncontaminated mind. Goodness/morality is the default “luminous” state of the uncontaminated mind.

  • #21044

    Lal
    Keymaster

    “Dosa vinnana has one of the 3 bad roots/causes.
    Karuna vinnana has one of the 3 good roots/causes.
    Both are contaminated.”

    This is not right.

    Vinnana is contaminated with dasa akusala.
    Vinnana with sobhana cetasika are not considered contaminated.
    All sobhana cetasika, including the panna cetasika, are optimized at the Arahant stage.
    An Arahant does not get a new bhava because he/she would not go through the “vedana paccaya tanha”, “tanha paccaya upadana”, and “upadana paccaya bhava” steps.

    Also see AN 3.34 mentioned in the post that I posted today at the “How can vedana paccaya phassa?” topic.

  • #21052

    upekkha100
    Participant

    I’ll give my points as to why even a good vinnana is contaminated and why an Arahant can’t have any sobhana cetasika in another reply later.

    But before that, I want to highlight the sutta Siebe mentioned(my thanks to Siebe as well for sharing this sutta.)

    AN 3.34:

    “(1) “Any kamma, bhikkhus, fashioned through non-greed, born of non-greed, caused by non-greed, originated by non-greed, is abandoned when greed has vanished; it is cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated so that it is no more subject to future arising.

    (2) “Any kamma fashioned through non-hatred, born of non-hatred, caused by non-hatred, originated by non-hatred, is abandoned when hatred has vanished; it is cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated so that it is no more subject to future arising.

    (3) “Any kamma fashioned through non-delusion, born of non-delusion, caused by non-delusion, originated by non-delusion, is abandoned when delusion has vanished; it is cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated so that it is no more subject to future arising.”

    ^ That matches what you had written before the revision:
    “One actually strives to remove greed, hate, and ignorance, which are “san”. When this is done, other three causes are automatically removed. ”

  • #21053

    y not
    Participant

    Lal: ‘Vinnana with sobhana cetasika are not considered contaminated.’

    Upekkha: “…even a good vinnana is contaminated and … AN ARAHANT CAN’T HAVE ANY SOBHANA CETASIKA..”

    In the absence of ANY vinnana, what constitutes an Arahant, what distinctive qualities make him up? If none, we then have to fall back to consider concepts like annihilation of individuality, evaporation, dissolution , a ‘mass of undifferentiated consciousness’….which to me is no different from extinction, non-existence.

    Metta

  • #21057

    Lal
    Keymaster

    upekkha100 said: “I’ll give my points as to why even a good vinnana is contaminated and why an Arahant can’t have any sobhana cetasika in another reply later.”

    OK.

  • #21067

    upekkha100
    Participant

    Hi Lal.

    I don’t know if the entirety of my last reply is appearing. But I highlighted a part of sutta AN 3.34 and how it matches what you had written before: about how alobha/adosa/amoha is gone after lobha/dosa/moha is removed first. Can you address that? And also specifically address that part of the sutta that I highlighted?

  • #21069

    Lal
    Keymaster

    Hello upekkha100,
    You said: “I don’t know if the entirety of my last reply is appearing.”

    Do you mean part of your post is missing? I checked the spam folder and there was nothing there.

    I think the English translation of the sutta is very clear (there are no hidden meanings in this sutta, and the translation is pretty much straight forward):
    Causes (AN 3.34)

    There is no need to further clarify the part that you highlighted. For example, “Any kamma, bhikkhus, fashioned through non-greed, born of non-greed (alobha), caused by non-greed, originated by non-greed, is abandoned when greed has vanished; it is cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated so that it is no more subject to future arising..”. AND same for adosa and amoha.

  • #21078

    upekkha100
    Participant

    I think the revision that you have made in the The Grand Unified Theory of Dhammā – Introduction
    post is incorrect. I think what you had written before the revision was correct.

    Before the revision:
    A) “One actually strives to remove greed, hate, and ignorance, which are “san”. When this is done, other three causes are automatically removed. ”

    After the revision:
    B) “The three good roots non-greed, non-hate, and non-ignorance are not removed, but the CONDITIONS (tanhā and upādāna) for them to lead to rebirth are removed at that time. Therefore, one will not be reborn even in the “good realms”.

    Your revision(B) says the 3 good roots are not removed. The sutta, AN 3.34, says that the 3 good roots are removed. That sutta matches A(what you had written before the revision).

  • #21080

    Lal
    Keymaster

    upekkha100: It does not say good roots are removed; please read it carefully. It says, those kamma done with good roots will not bring vipaka anymore.

    That is because, one has cultivated all sobhana cetasika (including panna) to the optimum (so the good roots are working at optimum), and thus will not grasp a new bhava via, “vedana paccaya tanha“, “tanha paccaya upadana“, and “upadana paccaya bhava“.
    – When there is no new bhava, there will no new jati to experience even those good kamma.

    This is an important point. So, let me explain a bit more.
    Just because there are causes, the results WILL NOT follow if CONDITIONS are removed.
    – That is what is explained in Paticca Samuppada.

    For example, a seed may last thousands of years, but WILL NOT bring about a tree unless suitable conditions (i.e., soil, water, sunlight, etc) become available.

    One’s good kamma beeja may be there, but they will NEVER get an opportunity to germinate once one removes the “bad three roots” and cultivates the “good three roots” to the extent that one will never go through the steps in Paticca Samuppada starting with “vedana paccaya tanha”..

  • #21081

    Christian
    Participant

    @Lal

    Very good explanations.

  • #21115

    upekkha100
    Participant

    Do I have this correct:
    1) Sobhana cetasika lead to good vinnana.

    2) An Arahant still has sobhana cetasikas.

    3) A good vinnana is not contaminated.

    4) An Arahant still has good vinnana.

  • #21116

    Lal
    Keymaster

    “Do I have this correct:
    1) Sobhana cetasika lead to good vinnana.

    2) An Arahant still has sobhana cetasikas.

    3) A good vinnana is not contaminated.

    4) An Arahant still has good vinnana.”

    Yes. An Arahant has undefiled vinnana (one could call that “good vinnana”), which is attained at the optimum of the set of sobhana cetasika, that includes panna.

  • #21117

    upekkha100
    Participant

    9 Stages of a citta. Going from pure to contaminated:
    1) citta
    2) mano
    3) manasan
    4) hadayan
    5) pandaran
    6) mana indriyan
    7) manayatana
    8) vinnana
    9) vinnanakkhandha

    -Vinnana and vinnanakkhanda come at stages 8 and 9.
    -An Arahant’s citta does not go beyond nor contaminate beyond stage 3: manasan.

    So how can an Arahant have any vinnana?

  • #21118

    Lal
    Keymaster

    Yes. It does not CONTAMINATE beyond the mansan stage.

    However, it incorporates all previous memories, and thus is still called vinnana and vinnanakkhandha (it is understood that for an Arahant those are undefiled).

    You may want to read the following post to see how any khandha (rupakkhandha, etc, the five AGGREGATES) incorporate past, present, future,…11 types to make it to an aggregate (see #3):
    Difference Between Rupa and Rupakkhandha

    Without incorporating previous memories, an Arahant will not be able to recall past memories, etc.

    So, the arising citta will not contaminate beyond the manasan stage, but will incorporate those 11 types to make it to an (undefiled) vinnanakkhandha or an aggregate.

  • #21128

    upekkha100
    Participant

    Lal wrote:
    “and thus is still called vinnana and vinnanakkhandha (it is understood that for an Arahant those are undefiled).”

    If that is the case then there are many instances at this site that seem to make that point unclear.

    For example:
    Citta, Manō, Viññāna – Stages of a Thought

    From #1:
    “I cringe when I see some online comments even say viññāna is Nibbāna. It is exactly the opposite: One attains Nibbāna when one gets rid of viññāna, or more precisely when one purifies one’s mind to the extent that a thought does not contaminate to the viññāna stage. “

  • #21129

    y not
    Participant

    It now seems to me the matter has been put to rest. I have taken this long to write to allow time for other replies to come in so as to have a larger ‘base’ for my response. (I have already deleted two posts before submitting).

    But we have run into an etymological contradiction.

    First let me thank Lal for the most recent post on Vinnana. I have been looking forward to it – expecting it even, and I sense it was the result of this very discussion topic, and perhaps another one or two recent ones related to the subject matter. For this I feel deeply grateful.

    Now, from that very recent post: “Viññāna – Consciousness Together With Future Expectations”:
    – 1. Viññāna means “without ñāna” or without wisdom:
    – Viññāna also means “defiled consciousness”; (when one attains the Arahanthood, one will have “undefiled or pure consciousness”.

    Lal has gone into this in depth enough. Upekkha’s summary (approved by Lal) goes:
    1) Sobhana cetasika lead to good vinnana.

    2) An Arahant still has sobhana cetasikas.

    3) A good vinnana is not contaminated.

    4) An Arahant still has good vinnana

    Lal concludes: “An Arahant has undefiled vinnana (one could call that “good vinnana”), which is attained at the optimum of the set of sobhana cetasika, that includes panna.”

    Meaning, per the definition of Vinnana above, (vi = defiled, nana = wisdom) an Arahant has a ‘good’ defiled consciousness. Lal would have done better here,, for the purpose of clarity and consistency with root meaning of words, to stick to the conventional (though incomplete or wrong) word ‘undefiled consiousness’ instead of ‘undefiled vinnana’. Also, has an Arahant then sobhana cetasika with defiled nana, without wisdom? Certainly not.

    I have understood perfectly what Lal means to say, and it is confirmation that at Arahanthood sohana cetasika are still there, which is a great relief in view of the danger, otherwise, of having to fall back into considering mahayana concepts, which I dread even the mention of.

    The villain in the piece is the prefix ‘vi’. Defined solely as ‘defiled’ is inadequate, because we see here that it can also mean ‘untainted’, in this case ‘untainted with tanha’, ‘untainted with the possibility of leading to rebirth’, as there is no ‘vedana paccaya tanha’ ,therefore no vipaka being generated, therefore no ayatana, no paccaya and therefore no bhava and no jati.

    The ‘taint’, therefore, unlike the case with lobha, dosa and moha arising out of akusala, DO NOT INHERE IN THE QUALITIES of ALOBHA, ADOSA AND AMOHA IN THEMSELVES, but rather, for all but Arahants, in there being tanha and the expectation of reward; and the rewards will follow, re-birth will follow. In the case of Arahants, however , those sobhana cetasika are ‘ ONLY rendered powerless to be made a cause of for (good) rebirth’. The ‘good’ in them persist. Only the asobhana cetasika are utterly destroyed.

    I hope I have been clear. Please do point out anything I said that is not, or that is wrong outright.

    Metta to all

  • #21131

    Yeos
    Participant

    So now to progress one has to be a translator expert Sinhala/Pâli/English?
    Come on…

    As for viññāna all the consulted translations lead to the following:
    – It can’t be equated to Nibanna. How could ?

    Which makes me wonder: what’s the mental activity of an Arahant? if any.

  • #21132

    y not
    Participant

    I HAVE been unclear !

    In the para starting with: ‘The villain…’ ‘vi’would equate with tainted, not untainted, of course. I had jumped prematurely into how it applies to Arahants.

  • #21133

    y not
    Participant

    Yeos,

    Thank you for your comment.

    • “As for viññāna all the consulted translations lead to the following
      It can’t be equated to Nibanna. How could ?”-

    I am aware of that.

    To which I say: If vinnana can’t be equated with Nibbana, what is? Are we doomed to accept the overly-sophisticated, pseudo-scholarly, SEEMINGLY- profound because impossible to conceive of, metaphysical NONSENSE of the Mahayanista? Because that is what it boils down to if nothing remains at Arahanthood: non-difference, dissolution, evaporation, extinction, annihilation (of consciousness and every other quality).

    To wit, Yeos: If anything remains at Arahanthood, the Arahant must be conscious or aware of it, otherwise it is for Him as good as non-existent.If nothing in Him remains, then He Himself is as good as non-existent. But Nibbana is NOT non-existence. Cannot be. I hope we are agreed on THAT. And if Nibbana WERE non-existence, then better strive for a good deva or brahma bhava instead – at least final non-existence would have been preceded by a term of felicity (a double whisky before the hanging !! )

    Metta

  • #21137

    firewns
    Participant

    This is what I think. Nibbana is not non-existence. But I think parinibbana (which happens during the death of a being who has attained Nibbana) is non-existence.

    I think the Buddha would have advised us to strive for permanent non-existence rather than rebirth as a deva or brahma, to be very direct and blunt. This seems to be a very important message of the Buddha, although most people resist that and find that to be depressing and contrary to their beliefs. That is also why the message of the Buddha is so hard to comprehend and accept.

  • #21141

    Lal
    Keymaster

    firewrns is right. Upon the death of an Arahant, he/she is not born in this world of 31 realms. He/she merges with Nibbana. Qualities of Nibbana cannot be explained in terms of our vocabulary because IT DOES NOT belong to this world. But it is a permanent state without any suffering.

    Suffering is present in each and every realm in this world, but it is hard for normal humans to understand. That is why the Path has to be followed step-by-step without getting hang up in definitions. Just try to understand concepts at ones’ own level. I have no idea what level of understanding each person is at.

    Here is the step-by-step process:
    One needs to get rid of the 10 types miccha ditthi first. Then one needs to start comprehending Tilakkhana, and when one starts seeing “the futilty of existence in any realm” one attains the Sotapanna stage. Only after that one can see overcome the desries for sense pleasures and get to the Sakadagami/Anagami stages. Only at that time, one can fully comprehend that even those higher realms are filled with suffering.

    I suggest carefully reading the following two posts:

    Nibbāna – Is it Difficult to Understand?” (Especially see #7)

    Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?

    More posts on Nibbana at:
    Nibbana

  • #21142

    Christian
    Participant

    “what’s the mental activity of an Arahant?”

    “This is what I think. Nibbana is not non-existence. But I think parinibbana (which happens during the death of a being who has attained Nibbana) is non-existence.”

    Level of ignorance of some of those posts is just overpowering. You guys are totally clueless and do not even realize that you harm yourself by trying to find out what is Nibbana or how it’s Arahant thru lenses of ignorance. This is Lal forum so I hold myself in respect for his works and rules. Rather then ask “how Arahants mind is” is better to ask How I can make my mind pure as Arahant one so you will be going in right direction, right now you are hopeless if you can’t see thru your own ignorance – which I know is not an easy thing to do but do not go over your head and act as you can do it. Dhamma is not an intellectual exercise to have new ideas to talk about. This is no different than sexual lust to trying to satisfy mind’s clitoris by dwelling in those concepts and ideas with ignorance and bad intentions. You will never satisfy yourself so stop trying and then you will be one step closer to knowing directly what is like to experience Nibbana, what it is and how the Arahant mind can be or how it is like. You are like sisyphists following Dhamma. Sisyphus mentality.

    Look up what you are doing, what you think and what direction you are going. Dhamma is not for your entertainment.

  • #21145

    firewns
    Participant

    Christian, do not think that trying to find out what Nibbana is is merely baseless and meaningless speculation.

    It is true that until we ourselves attain Nibbana, we can never truly experience it for what it is. However it is important to have a roadmap (the Fourth Noble Truth) and to have at least a somewhat limited understanding of our destination (the Third Noble Truth) if we are to motivate ourselves to pursue the goal of Nibbana.

    So long as we do not spend our whole lives speculating wildly about the nature of Nibbana, but instead put in effort to be mindful of our thoughts, speech and behaviour, as well as in learning Dhamma, we would be making productive and wise use of our time.

    So many people turn away from Buddhism because they do not truly understand its important message or else they are misled by pseudo versions of Buddhism, and wonder why they do not feel very much different afterwards. They very much need to know what kind of reward they can expect if they were to adhere to the advice of the Buddha.

  • #21150

    upekkha100
    Participant

    Lal wrote:
    “Without incorporating previous memories, an Arahant will not be able to recall past memories, etc.”

    Recalling past memories: is that not done with the manasikara cetasika? Manasikara cetasika is part of the 7 universal cetasika that make up a pure citta before it degrades to vinnana. Then it would seem an Arahant would not need to degrade to neither a bad vinnana nor good vinnana to recall back memories. It is already done in the first 7 universal cetasika of a pure citta.

    And I’d think identifying is also done by the sanna cetasika(also initially part of the 7 universal cetasika of a pure citta) and also at the manasan stage(which comes before vinnana).

  • #21161

    y not
    Participant

    When any one here assumes the role of a teacher and judges, advises and gives instruction about what should and should not be done, let him or her declare the stage of magga phala attained, if he or she has not done so already.

    Metta to all

  • #21162

    Lal
    Keymaster

    upekkha said: “Recalling past memories: is that not done with the manasikara cetasika? Manasikara cetasika is part of the 7 universal cetasika that make up a pure citta before it degrades to vinnana..”

    It is true that the manasikara cetasika “takes memories into account” during the arising of a citta. But those memories come from one’s five aggregates (rupakkhandha,….vinnanakkhandha).

    Therefore, all five aggregates, including the vinnanakkhandha, remain with an Arahant. There is no special name assigned to the vinnanakkhandha of an Arahant.
    – It is understood that the vinnana of an Arahant is pure or undefiled.
    – To say it differently, there is no upadana (or cravings) for any of the five aggregates for an Arahant. Pancakkhandha is there, but no pancaupadanakkhandha.

  • #21164

    y not
    Participant

    In just two lines: “there is no upadana (or cravings) for any of the five aggregates for an Arahant. PANCHAKKHANDA IS THERE, but no pancaupadanakkhandha.”

    Thanks Lal

  • #21170

    upekkha100
    Participant

    Taking into account the following points from Lal and another previous comment:
    -Viññāna means “without ñāna” or without wisdom:
    -Viññāna also means “defiled consciousness”;
    -vi = defiled, nana = wisdom (vinnana)
    -It is understood that the vinnana of an Arahant is pure or undefiled.
    -when one attains the Arahanthood, one will have “undefiled or pure consciousness”.

    So vinnana means:
    -Without wisdom
    -Defiled consciousness

    -Yet an Arahant is the embodiment of wisdom.
    -Yet an Arahant has undefiled consciousness.

    So how can an Arahant have vinnana?

    To say an Arahant has vinnana, is equivalent to saying:
    -Arahant is without wisdom
    -Arahant has defiled consciousness

    “Vinnana of an Arahant” is a contradiction. Like saying dry water.

    For example:
    If vinnana is defiled consciousness, it can be compared to a dirty cloth.
    An anariya’s vinnana(dirty cloth) is unclean.

    To say an Arahant’s vinnana is “undefiled” is like saying: an Arahant’s dirty cloth is clean.

    To me the following would make more sense:
    -An anariya’s consciousness is vinnana.
    -An Arahant’s consciousness is just nana(minus the vi).
    -Goal of purifying the mind would be to eventually change one’s vinnana to nana.

    -An anariya’s consciousness is defiled. Without wisdom. Anariyas do not experience things as they are, not see true nature of reality. Rather an anariya labels experiences as the following 3 ways:
    1) good because they like it based on lobha. Generate amisa sukha vedana.
    2) bad because they dislike it based on dosa. Generate amisa dukha vedana.
    3) neutral. neither like nor dislike based on moha(delusion, a defilement). Generate
    amisa upekkha.

    -An Arahant’s consciousness is undefiled. If they have only nana rather than vinnana that means with wisdom(because nana means wisdom). They know the true nature of reality. They do not label experiences as “good/bad/neutral based on moha”, but they experience things as they are, see things as neutral, but their neutrality is different from that of an anariya in that an Arahant’s neutrality is not based on moha. Their neutrality is niramisa upekkha vedana, based on wisdom from their pure undefiled minds.

  • #21173

    Lal
    Keymaster

    “So how can an Arahant have vinnana?”

    I can explain this only so many times. I have said so many times that an Arahant has “undefiled vinnana”. If you try to be a lawyer and not willing to understand Dhamma, there is not much I can do.

    When the Buddha said, “I was born such and such a person” long time ago, he did not literally mean that. There is no “I” going from one birth to another. It is just continuing “lifestream” filled with suffering, that will end upon Parinibbana.

    Somethings need to be just understood. There is simply no assigned special name for the vinnana of an Arahant. Those who understand what is meant by vinnana KNOW that vinnana of an Arahant is undefiled.

    I will have no more comments on this issue.

  • #21174

    y not
    Participant

    Upekkha,

    Please allow me to make one final comment:

    If to you it is clear, or becomes clear,that whatever an Arahant is made of cannot be defiled, in whole or in part,then words, and the meaning of the components of those words, is of no importance. The ‘vinnana’ of an Arahant IS undefiled, just because the ‘vinnana’ of an Arahant CANNOT be defiled. He has gone through all four stages of the Path, He is perfected: ‘Birth is ended….’ How can there still be any trace of defilement in Him?

    All the trouble I myself took going into the ‘vi’, defiled, tainted etc was just trying to find a fitting interpretation of how the word ‘vinnana’ could apply to an Arahant. But I was never in any doubt, in whatever way the word ‘vinnana’ may apply to an Arahant.

    Metta to all

  • #21194

    upekkha100
    Participant

    I know I may seem annoying but I’ll explain why I’m discussing this. I think it is important what words are used. I can list the reasons. One of them being: because unlike other belief systems, I have noticed everything in Buddhism is not random nor by chance. It is deliberate and precise. There is a reason for the words that are used to convey the message. It clears away confusion, not cause it. So if the Buddha called an Arahant’s consciousness as vinnana, it would seem odd/inconsistent/confusing to me. But I’ll make that topic some other time to get other peoples input. I don’t think continuing that here would be appropriate and just drag on this discussion fruitlessly.

  • #21195

    upekkha100
    Participant

    So going back to what I had wanted to point out before:

    The 7 universal cetasika of a citta:
    1) Phassa
    2) Vedana
    3) Sanna
    4) Cetana
    5) Ekaggata
    6) Jivitindriya
    7) Manasikara

    Is the following correct:
    -All of those 7 cetasika start out as pure/uncontaminated
    -All start out as neutral.
    -Whether it is an anariya or Ariya.

    Meaning for example:
    -Phassa is just phassa, and not yet samphassa at this initial stage.
    -Sanna is not yet nicca/sukha/atta.
    -Vedana is neither amisa sukha nor amisa dukha. At this early stage, it is neutral too(I remember using listening to a favorite song repeatedly as an example, and was told my vedana would INITIALLY be neutral before contaminating with tanha each time I’d listen to it.)

    Question:
    It is said cetana is the cetasika that include the other cetasikas: asobhana cetasika or sobhana cetasika. Both asobhana and sobhana cetasika generate kamma. Bad kamma and good kamma. Neither are neutral. So at the early stage of a citta, is the cetana cetasika neutral too like phassa/sanna/vedana/and the rest of the universal cetasika? Meaning: at the very early initial stage, is it correct to say that cetana does not incorporate any of the kamma generating cetasikas(neither asobhana cetasika nor sobhana cetasika)?

  • #21202

    Lal
    Keymaster

    upekkha100 said: ” So at the early stage of a citta, is the cetana cetasika neutral too like phassa/sanna/vedana/and the rest of the universal cetasika?”

    The cetana cetasika is ALWAYS neutral. It just combines the universal cetasika with a set of sobhana or asobhana cetasika that arises due to one’s gati.
    – When the Buddha said, “cetanaham Bhikkhave kammam vadami“, he meant when the cetana cetasika combined a set of cetasika, the mind will then act accordingly (moral or immoral kamma could be done).

    upekkha100 said:” at the very early initial stage, is it correct to say that cetana does not incorporate any of the kamma generating cetasikas(neither asobhana cetasika nor sobhana cetasika)?”

    Yes. At the citta stage, cetana has only combined the 7 universal cetasika.

    The 9 stages are discussed in a simple way at: “Citta, Manō, Viññāna – Stages of a Thought“.

  • #21212

    upekkha100
    Participant

    For the 9 stages of a citta:
    1) citta
    2) mano
    3) manasan
    4) hadayan
    5) pandaran
    6) mana indriyan
    7) manayatana
    8) vinnana
    9) vinnanakkhandha

    1) Are the asobhana/sobhana cetasika incorporated at the manasan stage?

    2) If not, at which stage are they incorporated?

  • #21213

    Lal
    Keymaster

    I don’t think there is any benefit in discussing in great detail a process that happens within a billionth of a second.

    Such processes are discernible only to the mind of a Buddha. It is good know that he has described the mind processes in such detail. But I don’t think what cetasika are incorporated at what stage has been discussed in Tipitaka. That would serve not much added benefit.

    Nibbana is attained via getting rid of greed, hate, and ignorance from our minds. It is better to focus on that primary goal.

    In order to get rid of ignorance, we DO NEED TO see some of these details (some of it to realize that the Buddha really did know these processes inside out, so that we can faith in his Dhamma). But there is a limit to such probing. There is no need to know such details as what cetasika are incorporated at what stage.

    January 15, 2019:
    Just posted “Breath Meditation Is Addictive and Harmful in the Long Run“.

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