[firewns]

There are those who crave to be loved, respected and admired. Others want to feel that they are living a life that matters, even though unbeknownst to them, they can never really live a truly meaningful life, unless it is to seek a way out of an ultimately meaningless existence (with anatta nature).

Are those subtle forms of bhavasava? For they do not seem to be cravings for sensual pleasure (kamasava).

Thank you very much in advance for your responses.

[y not]

firewns,

“There are those who crave…”, so they ARE cravings.

So I would say they may be subtle forms of kamasava, but still the bhavasava for them can be very strong. Though gross sensuality (sexuality) is not there, the craving for that love, respect, admiration may be very strong.

From /seeking-nibbana/nibbana-removal-of-asavas/:

• Bhavāsava is the craving for particular kind of existence, say as a human, deva, or a brahma; any living being, in any realm, craves for existence.-
  And just preceding that:
  -Kāmāsava are associated with sense pleasures.-

The question is : Is love a sense pleasure? I do not include respect and admiration here, because there is a sense of ego in both – respect FOR ME, admiration FOR ME. And, yes, craving love FOR ME. But when love is for the other, pleasure is derived from giving that love, so a subtle form of selfishness remains even there.

Personally, I do not regard love or loving (in the purest sense possible for a human)as a sense pleasure because that love will be the same just thinking lovingly of the other without the need of the five physical senses. (Mind is the sixth,true, but it in not physical).

Others will have different views, which I welcome.

Metta

[Yeos]

@firewens…

Craving is craving is craving meaning it doesn’t involve only explicit-sense-pleasures.

By the way…sight, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling and mind : are you sure that craving for love,respect and admiration doesn’t involve any sense pleasure?

It’s also about craving for feeling alive.

[firewns]

Thank you very much y not for your response.

I will have to ponder very carefully on your words. I am still confused so it will take some time. Actually that was also the reason why I took longer to reply.

[Lal]

firewns said: “There are those who crave to be loved, respected and admired. Others want to feel that they are living a life that matters, even though unbeknownst to them, they can never really live a truly meaningful life, unless it is to seek a way out of an ultimately meaningless existence (with anatta nature).

Are those subtle forms of bhavasava?”

That could be due to bhavasava (craving for existence: “I want to live”) and avijjasava (ignorance of the suffering associated with any existence).

Kamasava (craving for sense pleasures) is not there, and one may or may not have removed ditthasava (a Sotapanna could have such a mindset and even an Anagami to some extent).

However, if that mindset is not permanent, i.e., if cravings for sense pleasures comes back even once, that means one still have kamasava (as anusaya or hidden) as well.
– If ditthasava is there, kamasava is definitely there.
– Those asava are removed in the following order: ditthasava (Sotapanna), kamasava (Anagami), bhavasava and avijjasava (Arahant).

[Tobias G]

Hi Lal,
that statement seems not correct:
“– If kamasava is there, ditthasava is definitely there.”

A Sotapanna has removed ditthasava but still has kamasava.

[Lal]

Thanks, Tobias.

I meant the reverse of what I had there; just corrected it.

[sybe07]

craving is, i belief, a kind of energy directed at (creating) a future. Wanting a future. A future of nice tastes, nice smells etc. (kama tanha). Nice states of mind or nice existences (bhava tanha). Or a future without suffering, fed by the idea that one will be released from suffering after death, vibhava tanha. Tanha is about future. It is future oriented.

In this sense, it seems logic that from tanha a future is created, or does involve a future, and implies continuation.

Siebe

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