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That sutta describes what the Buddha did in a particular situation.
He did that to get his message across to various audiences that included aristocrats, brahmins … householders … ascetics … the gods under the Four Great Kings … the gods under the Thirty-Three … Māras … Brahmās.
– The first several categories were all human.The point of that particular sutta was the following: The Buddha wanted to get his point across to those who were there at each of those assemblies without letting them know who delivered that message. Among those human assemblies, he appeared as a normal human, not as Buddha. Among deva assemblies, he appeared as a common deva, etc.
– I am not sure why the Buddha did not want to reveal his identity in those cases.That does not mean others (including devas or brahmas) can do that or even need to do that. Some may be able to do that.
– Once a deva came to the Buddha ask a question. But with his fine body, he could not stand straight and was wobbling, just like a tall, cylindrical helium-filled balloon would sway back and forth.
– So, the Buddha asked that deva to “manifest in a human body”. Apparently that deva could do that and created a “human-like solid body” for himself. Then he was able to stand firm.But of course, the Buddha would not appear in a brahma realm with his actual physical body. One normally visits those higher realms with the manomaya kaya (gandhabba kaya). Even then, those devas or brahmas normally know who it is (unless the Buddha willfully concealed his identity, like in the above case).
– It is probably not possible to appear in deva and brhama realms with one’s physical body. Those realms are located well-above the Earth’s atmosphere and there is no oxygen to support a physical body.I had forgotten about a post an old post on the hell: “Does the Hell (Niraya) Exist?“.
It has more information on this topic and I have just revised and updated it.
Y not wrote:
Q: Why only any living beings with well-established miccha ditthi ? And not those with well-established samma ditthi as well?Our cakkavāla is the “best” because Buddhas are born here. No Buddhas are born in the 10,000 cakkavāla around ours.
– There are many more “clusters of 10,000 cakkavāla” out there. Each such cluster has one “special cakkavāla” like ours where Buddhas can be born.
– Our “world’ is unimaginably complex.You wrote: “The ‘transfer’ from one cakkavala to another can be done in a deva or brahma ‘body’..”
You must be referring to the visits by devas and brahmas to our cakkavāla to listen to the desanas of the Buddha or ask questions from him. They go back to their own cakkavāla after those visits.
– It is not that common for ANY living being to be born in a different cakkavāla. We are indeed fortunate to be born in this cakkavāla.Tobias wrote: “It is strange that King Yama speaks in terms of Buddha Dhamma as if he would know the Buddha Dhamma.”
From your full post, you seem to think that all “hell beings”, including King Yama are subjected to torture. That is not really true.
– As I have pointed out many times (regarding deva and brahma realms), concepts and ideas about our world do not directly apply to other realms.
– Regarding your above statement, we can roughly compare “hell wardens” and King Yama to policemen and the head of the police department in a city. They are doing a tough job. Even though the policemen are not there to be punished, they get battered too while trying to control criminals. They probably could get other jobs, but that job of controlling criminals is compatible with their “gati”. They get satisfaction out of that. It is according to the “sankhara” that they cultivate (not liking what criminals do and genuinely wanting to do something about it). In fact, some of them may actually be born as hell wardens. The bodies of those hell wardens are made to be able to bear the harsh conditions. They do not feel the “unbearable heat” as hell-beings do in some hells, for example.
– Another point is that King Yama is more like a deva in a lower deva realm. He is likely to visit the human realm at times.You wrote: “Then he could have reached stream entry. King Yama would also not support the torture of others.”
Just because one can appreciate the value of Buddha Dhamma, and even working hard to attain Stream Entry, does not mean one can get there easily.
“Also strange these hell wardens create very bad kamma for themselves while punishing other beings.”
– Again, this is a good comparison with policemen. Policemen do acquire bad kamma by beating up criminals at times, but they also gain good kamma by helping out the general population.“Is the hell not a place where all those bad gathi gather and torture each other? So no one would be safe in hell because there are too many beings with hate.”
No. Hopefully, the above description would be helpful. Hell-beings may attack each other too, just like inmates in our prisons (I just realized that our prisons may a be good comparison too, in some aspects). But those tortures are done by the hell wardens. In many cases, the hell-beings subject themselves to torture too.
– One example mentioned by Waharaka Thero is the presence of trees in some hells with razor-sharp leaves. A beautiful woman beckons from the top of the tree and the hell beings climb the tree trying to beat each other to get there. In the process, they get cut up (again, their bodies are “designed” by kammic energy to just feel the pain, but not to die). By the time they get to the top, the woman is on the ground beckoning from there. It is a non-stop process.
– So, I would not disregard these descriptions of the hell out-of-hand. One reason for starting this series is to point out that there are many things in this world that we cannot perceive, but true.P.S. Also, see, “Buddha Dhamma: Non-Perceivability and Self-Consistency“
Regarding the new post yesterday on, “Buddhist Worldview – Introduction“, there are two updates.
1. Siebe sent me the following sutta that has a description of the hell (niraya) by the Buddha:
“Devadūta Sutta (MN 130)“. A translation at, “Devaduta Sutta: The Deva Messengers“.Much merits to Siebe and his family!
2. I just realized that there are 81 suttas in the “Devatā Saṃyutta” and 111 suttas in the “Devaputta Saṃyutta” in the Saṃyutta Nikāya, that describe visits to the Buddha by various devas to ask questions and discuss Dhamma.
– Translations of some of the suttas are available at Sutta Central (in the above links). Click on the “hamburger menu” on the top left to check for available translations.
– English translations of some of those suttas may also be found by doing a Google search.I have revised #6 of the post to include the above information.
Also, it would be better if questions on future posts in the new series on “Origin of Life” are posted under this general topic. That way we can have all that information under one topic.
Christian is right.
What really matters is one’s state of mind. Whether there is another person affected or not, a mind defiled with greed, anger, or ignorance WILL lead to bad kamma vipaka.
– If another person is affected in some way, that just creates a “kammic connection” between the two, i.e., one will become indebted to the “wronged person”.The importance of the “state of mind” is in the first Dhammapada verse. The second part of the verse says:
“manasā cē padutthēna
bhāsati vā karoti vā
tatō nam dukkhamanvēti
cakkamva vahatō padam.Translated: “In the case of a defiled mind (acting with lōbha, dōsa, mōha), suffering will follow just as a wheel of a cart follows the footsteps of the ox pulling it (cakkamva vahatō padam).”
See, “Manōpubbangamā Dhammā..”
This is also what I will be discussing in detail in the new series: “Origin of Life”
P.S. If it is a past deed, I would not worry about it. We all have done many bad kamma in the past (especially in past lives). We should just focus on what is under our control: our future actions, speech, and thoughts.
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I do understand why many people (not many at this forum), have a “mental block” on the following:
They think that Nibbana is the extinction of a “person”. P.S. That is a version of sakkaya ditthi. The wrong view of an “everlasting self” or “sassata ditthi” that I discussed in the new series on “Origin of Life”.
When one understands Paticca Samuppada (PS), one will realize that there is no such “unchanging person”. There are only causes and effects. Kamma vipaka are brought by past kamma AND conditions.
– Each good or bad life is the result of a past (good or bad) kamma.
– But the hard part is that until one comprehends that, there will always be the sanna of an “unchanging self” or a “soul” or an “atma” (in Hinduism).
– Each “person” is subjected to unimaginable suffering in the rebirth process due to this wrong view and wrong sanna.
– Hopefully, the new series on “Origin of Life” will help clarify this a bit more clearly.Also see, “Yamaka Sutta (SN 22.85) – Arahanthood Is Not Annihilation but End of Suffering“.
P.S.
– The key point, of course, is that there is really “no unchanging person”, as discussed in the above post. But, as long as one has sakkaya ditthi, one thinks there is such an “unchanging-self”.
– If one is reborn an animal, is that still the same “me”? Is it worthwhile to be born an animal?
– Think about the suffering of an animal. Other than domesticated animals, others suffer so much. A bird may appear to live an easy life. But a bird is in constant fear of being eaten. There are no “old animals” in the wild. As soon as they start approaching the old age, they get slow and are eaten. They get eaten alive!
– Of course, the suffering in the other three realms in the apayas can be much worse.Siebe wrote: “I have always understood Nibbana is asankhata. Does this not also mean that it has no beginning? It does not arise at any moment?”
I have also explained Nibbana as asankata. I stated above that it has a beginning, that it arises at the death of an Arahant. Why are you going in circles?
– Sankata means something prepared or something that arises due to causes. Any sankata arises due to lobha, dosa, moha and that is what we will be discussing in the new series on “Origin of Life”. That translates to something prepared with the four great elements.
– Anything that is prepared with the four great elements of patavi, apo, tejo, vayo (or atoms/molecules in modern science) come to existence, change during its existence, and eventually destroyed.
– That is what is stated in AN 3.47, “..arising of a sankata is evident, vanishing of a sankata is evident, and during its existence that sankata keeps changing”.
– Think about any sankata in this world: a tree, animal, human, Sun, Earth, etc. They all have those three characteristics. A tree comes to life as a little bud. It grows (i.e., changes). Then it dies. Let me know if you can name one thing in this world that does not have those three features.On the other hand, Nibbana is asankata. It does not arise due to causes. It is not prepared with atoms/molecules (or the four great elements) or anything else. It arises when all root causes are removed.
– When all sankata are stopped from arising, Nibbana results. Very simply, that means a life-stream will end. No more rebirths in this world.
– Nibbana has no ending. Therefore, it does not have those last two characteristics of a sankata. – But it has a beginning: the death of an Arahant. That life-stream ends and “full Nibbaba” or Parinibbana starts.Siebe asked: “does the concept of lifestream in essence not refer to PS?”
Why do you say that?
– A lifestream is a sankata, and any sankata can be explained in terms of (akusala-mula) Paticca Samuppada (PS).
– It is just that a beginning to the first step of a life-stream, “avijja paccaya sankhara” cannot be discerned, i.e., the beginning of any given life-stream (you or me or anyone else) cannot be discerned.
– As I have also explained, that is consistent with the Principle of Causality.Akusala-mula Paticca Samuppada (PS) leads to and sustains the continuation of a life-stream. When one existence ends, another starts. A given existence is called a sankata. For a life-stream, as soon as one existence (sankata) ends, another (sankata) starts. There is no end until Arahanthood is attained.
– Kusala-mula Paticca Samuppada (PS) leads to Nibbana.y not wrote: “I have been trying to say is that the ‘Infinite Monkey Theorem’ does not hold. Just because there is an infinite time ahead available does not mean that a monkey will eventually hit all the right keys on a typewriter to produce the text of any given book, likewise a being does not of neccessity attain Nibbana in the infinite future..”
That is right.
By the way, you can find that thread by typing, “Infinite Monkey Theorem” in the Search box for the forum (not the at the main site Search box).Siebe asked: “has Nibbana a beginning?”
Yes. The full and complete Nibbana starts at the death of an Arahant (at Parinibbana). No more suffering forever after that.
y not wrote: “I was asking for Tipitaka reference that a being’s stay in sansara can last forever”.
One will stay in sansara until one attains Nibbana. We don’t need a Tipitaka reference to see that.
Think about this: We all have so far stayed in sansara for eternity since there is no logical beginning to life. Buddha himself tried to look back at a “beginning” but could not see. Of course, he was able to see “himself” getting “niyata vivarana” from Buddha Deepankara some trillions of years ago! See, “Pāramitā and Niyata Vivarana – Myths or Realities?“.
There are infinite beings trapped in sansara right now. In any future time, there will still be infinity of beings in sansara.
– Infinity minus infinity is still infinity!– Infinity is a very complex subject. Luckily, mathematicians have studied it in detail and have come to that last conclusion. See, “Infinity – How Big Is It?“.
That is why the Buddha advised not to think about such “imponderable issues”. Each person should be just focused on ending suffering. We have only a limited time in this life. We should spend that precious time on important things.
– One may question whether my recent posts on the origin of life are relevant to get rid of suffering. That broad picture or world view can help one get rid of the sakkaya ditthi.Siebe wrote: “So, how can a cognitive process ever refer to Nibbana?”
Who said that Nibbana (after Parinibbana) is a cognitive process?
– When Parinibbana (at the death of an Arahant) is attained, the cognitive processes (as we know it) ceases.
– Until then the cognitive process gets better as one gets to higher magga phala.The cognitive process in “this world” is associated with citta, cetasika, and rupa. All those cease to exist at Nibbana.
There are four ultimate realities: citta, cetasika, rupa, and Nibbana.
– The first three are associated with “this world”.
– When one transcends (overcome) this world, one gets to Nibbana, where there is no suffering.
– See, “The Grand Unified Theory of Dhammā – Introduction“.y not wrote: “Every blade of grass eventually attains ‘Enlightenment’ “.
These Mahāyāna concepts are not worthy of discussion.
– There are totally inert things like rocks. There are living “things” like grass and plants. And there are living “beings” like animals and humans.Buddha Dhamma can explain the origin of living “things” and living “beings”. That is what we will discuss in detail in the new “Origin of Life” series.
P.S. Actually, Buddha Dhamma explains the origin of inert things too: “The Origin of Matter – Suddhātthaka“.
“Lal, do i understand you correct that you teach that Nibbana is something individual, personal and local?”
Nibbana is ragakkhaya, dosakkhaya, mohakkhaya.
That is what is in the Tipitaka and that is what I have explained.“It is just the cognitive proces (or mind) definitely freed from lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa and amoha?”
Yes.
“Why does a personal lifestream have no beginning? It is has an end why does it not have a beginning?”
I have explained in this post that according to the principle of Causality, there cannot be a beginning to life. The Buddha kept recalling his past lives and could not see a beginning.
What you say is exactly right.
This is why some people are unable to get the correct results by repeating the “rice experiment”:
“The Rice Experiment (Video)“.Experiments on inert matter (most scientific experiments belong to this category) can be correctly repeated by anyone. Those do not involve the “mental state” of the experimenter. Of course, the experimenter needs to competent in carrying out the steps involved.
But in the “rice experiment” or the “water experiment” that you referred to, the mental state of the experimenter plays a key role. One has to “put one’s mind into it”, rather than just following the necessary steps mechanically.
Our state of the mind CAN affect mindless things like rice, water, and plants. There is an interesting book, “The Secret Life of Plants” by P. Tompkins and C. Bird. They describe some interesting experiments with plants. But others have objected by saying that when they tried to repeat those experiments, they did not get the same results.
– That is because they were mechanically repeating the experiments, just like other scientific experiments.
– These experiments involve “mind power”.Siebe wrote: “The sutta’s also talk about: …” an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned” (Udana 8.3)
Does this not go against causality?”No. It does not. I have explained this before, but since this is very important, I will lay it out one more time. If there are any questions, please ask them now after reading the following carefully.
1. There are six causes for things to arise in this world: lobha, dosa, moha and alobha, adosa, amoha.
– Akusala kamma (immoral actions) done with lobha, dosa, moha give rise to births in the four lowest realms or apayas.
– Punna Kamma (moral deeds) done with alobha, adosa, amoha give rise to births in the human and higher (good) realms.
2. However, even births in good realms do not solve the problem of suffering, because based on one’s temptations, one could do kamma with lobha, dosa, moha and then be born in the apayas.
3. When one comprehends 1 and 2 above, one would have realized the anicca nature: That existence in any realm WILL NOT bring permanent happiness, or more correctly it will not REMOVE future suffering.
4. When one understands that, thereafter any punna kamma will automatically become KUSALA kammma.
– KUSALA kamma are better than PUNNA kamma. Instead of leading to rebirth in the good realms, they lead one to Nibbana.
– This is a point that is hard for many people to understand. With the comprehension of Tillakkhana (that anicca nature leads to dukkha, which in turn leads to anatta or helplessness), one AUTOMATICALLY does kamma without any (hidden) expectation of a “good return in terms of good birth”.
– That is because one has understood that even births in the good realms WILL NOT solve the problem of future suffering.5. When one proceeds this way, lobha, dosa, moha are removed in four stages: Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami, Arahant.
– By the time one gets to the Arahant stage, one has removed lobha, dosa, moha completely.
– By that time, one has also removed any contamination of alobha, adosa, amoha as well. That is because one would have seen the futility of getting births in those good realms also.6. Therefore, Nibbana (Arahanthood) is attained by REMOVING ALL SIX ROOT CAUSES.
– However, since an Arahant still has a live physical body, previous kamma vipaka can still result in bring bodily pains like injuries or body pains or sicknesses. However, any mental suffering would be gone.
– Then that Arahant attains Parinibbana (full Nibbaba) when the physical body dies at his death.
– AT that point, full Nibbana is realized and NO MORE SUFFERING will ever materialize.7. It is important to understand that Nibbana IS NOT REACHED due to causes. Nibbana is reached when all six root causes are REMOVED.
– That is what is meant by asankata, unborn, unmade, unconditioned, etc. for Nibbana.
– On the other hand sankata (things in this world) arise due to those six causes. Words like born, made, conditioned, are associated with sankata.So, it is very important to understand the difference between punna kamma and kusala kamma.
– Until one comprehends the anicca nature, all moral deeds are just PUNNA kamma. After comprehension of Tilakkhana, any moral deeds will automatically be KUSALA kamma.
See, “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Puñña and Pāpa Kamma“.
P.S. Today, I re-wrote the above post.Hi Tobias,
Of course, those who believe in a cReator think that a “First Cause” is necessary.
But that idea of a “First Cause” is not an accepted theory or principle. It is made up by those believers! As I explained, it runs against the Principle of Causality. That is the point.
P.S. Please post a link a to the relevant post at puredhamma.net. Here the post in question is: “Wrong View of Creationism (and Eternal Future Life) – Part 2“.
Also, the title of the post should be started with “Post on xxxxx”. Otherwise, there could be problems with the search box. I have changed the topic of this thread so that it will be clear.
