Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
y not wrote: “Yes it is not clear- there ‘attainments’are mentioned, not magga phala specifically.”
Yes. I did: “Uttarimanussadhamma does mean magga phala or jhana.” on May 27, 2019 at 7:24 am.
I cannot keep repeating the same stuff in each every post. You should go back read my eralier responses before commenting.
Regarding puthujjana’s questions:
“Indeed, after some research, it is true that upasampannassa actually did mean attained, processed of. However, it also have another meaning base on 3 Pali dictionary, which is ordained.”
I guess it could be used that way. But that would be a stretch.
– However, it is really bad to translate “anupasampannassa” as “truthfully”.But your comments at the end do make sense.
“Question:
1. Bhikkhu who had not lied regarding their attainment committed pārājika and expel from the community and Bhikkhu who lied regarding their attainment committed only pācittiya?
2. Meaning of bhūta indeed included ghost, but is has other meaning as well, why we should choose ghost in this context and not just “existed” ?”Just based on the fact that pārājika is the worst offense, it appears that the bhikkhus in the second case (pārājika) the ones who admitted to falsely claiming the attainments.
Since there were just words “bhutam” and “abhutam” there in the two cases, “bhutam” seems to mean “correct” in the sense that “it did materialize”, and “abhutam” means “did not”. As I mentioned earlier, “bhuta” means to “come into existence” (However, as I said there, those bhuta are not stable).
– It would have been helpful if clear-cut words like taccha/ataccha were used to indicate true/false.We may be able to get more clarity by looking at the use of the words bhutam/abhutam in other situations.
Here is one such example:
Tatiyanibbānapaṭisaṃyutta Sutta (Udāna 8.3):
“Evaṃ me sutaṃ— ekaṃ samayaṃ bhagavā sāvatthiyaṃ viharati jetavane anātha¬piṇḍi¬kassa ārāme. Tena kho pana samayena bhagavā bhikkhū nib¬bā¬na¬paṭi¬saṃ¬yuttāya dhammiyā kathāya sandasseti samādapeti samuttejeti sampahaṃseti. Tedha bhikkhū aṭṭhiṃ katvā, manasi katvā, sabbaṃ cetaso samannāharitvā, ohitasotā dhammaṃ suṇanti.
Atha kho bhagavā etamatthaṃ viditvā tāyaṃ velāyaṃ imaṃ udānaṃ udānesi:
“Atthi, bhikkhave, ajātaṃ abhūtaṃ akataṃ asaṅkhataṃ. No cetaṃ, bhikkhave, abhavissa ajātaṃ abhūtaṃ akataṃ asaṅkhataṃ, nayidha jātassa bhūtassa katassa saṅkhatassa nissaraṇaṃ paññāyetha. Yasmā ca kho, bhikkhave, atthi ajātaṃ abhūtaṃ akataṃ asaṅkhataṃ, tasmā jātassa bhūtassa katassa saṅkhatassa nissaraṇaṃ paññāyatī”ti.(It is to be noted that translations to other languages are available by clicking on the “hamburger icon” at top left on the menu bar there; but I have seen several incorrect translations like on this topic for the Vinaya rules).
In the above case “abhutam” is used in the “good sense” since it is a description of Nibbana. Here it actually means that Nibbana is not reached via the “formation” of something.
– As we know, patavi, apo,tejo, vayo and anything in “this world” arises via gati (mental energy) as the root cause, and thus are not stable (but Nibbana is).y not wrote: “Does the fact that they lied mean that those Bhikkhus had not attained any magga phala? Or, conversely, are Ariya incapable even of such a thing?”
AND “It may be that you have touched upon this point in a post or in a reply to a question somewhere already. I am not sure.”Yes. I did mention that at the end of my post. If it is not clear there, yes, that is an important point.
– Furthermore, they themselves admitted to the Buddha that they did not have magga phala/jhana.Since this is an important issue regarding a Vinaya rule, I thought of taking a closer look at the issue.
Most Vinaya rules were setup to handle particular situations where one or more bhikkhus had done things that were not appropriate. The link given by y not provides the background for the Vinaya rule in question here.
The training rule on telling truthfully
– I am reproducing that below so that we can discuss it.At one time the Buddha was staying at Vesālī in the hall with the peaked roof in the Great Wood. At that time a number of monks who were friends had entered the rains on the banks of the river Vaggumudā. Just then Vajjī was short of food and afflicted with hunger, with crops blighted and turned to straw, and it was not easy to get by on almsfood.
The monks considered the difficult circumstances, and they thought, “How can we remain united and in harmony, have a comfortable rains, and get almsfood without problems?”
Some said, “We could do work for the lay people, and they’ll give something in return. In this way we’ll be united and in harmony, and we’ll spend the rains in comfort and have no problems getting almsfood.”Some said, “There’s no need to do work for the lay people. Let’s instead take messages for them, and they’ll give something in return. In this way we’ll be united and in harmony, and we’ll spend the rains in comfort and have no problems getting almsfood.”
Some said, “There’s no need to do work for the lay people, nor to take messages for them. Let’s instead praise one another’s superhuman qualities to the lay people, ‘Such a monk has the first absorption, such a monk the second absorption, such a monk the third, such a monk the fourth; such a monk is a stream-enterer, such a monk a once-returner, such a non-returner, such a perfected one; such a monk has the three true insights, and such the six direct knowledges.’ Then they’ll give to us. In this way we’ll be united and in harmony, and we’ll spend the rains in comfort and have no problems getting almsfood. Indeed, this is the better way, that we praise one another’s superhuman qualities to the lay people.”
Then they praised each other’s superhuman qualities to the lay people, “Such a monk has the first absorption … such a monk has the six direct knowledges.” And those people thought, “We’re fortunate that such monks have come to us for the rains. Such monks as these, who are virtuous and of good character, have never before entered the rains with us.” And they gave such food and drink to those monks that they did not even eat and drink themselves, or give to their parents, to their wives and children, to their slaves, servants, and workers, to their friends and companions, or to their relatives. In this way those monks became handsome, with rounded features, bright faces, and clear skin.
Now it was the custom for monks who had finished keeping the rains to go and see the Master. So when the rainy-season residence was completed and the three months had elapsed, those monks put their dwellings in order, took their bowls and robes, and departed for Vesālī. When they eventually arrived at Vesālī, they went to the hall with the peaked roof in the Great Wood. There they approached the Master, bowed down to him, and sat down to one side.
At that time the monks who had completed the rainy-season residence in that region were thin, haggard and pale, their veins protruding all over their limbs. But the monks from the banks of the Vaggumudā were handsome, with rounded features, bright faces, and clear skin.It is the custom for Buddhas to greet newly arrived monks, and so the Master said to them, “I hope you’re keeping well, monks, I hope you’re comfortable; I hope you spent the rains at ease, in concord and harmony, without dispute, and that you had no trouble getting almsfood?”
“We’re keeping well, Master, we’re comfortable; we spent the rains at ease, in concord and harmony, without dispute, and we had no trouble getting almsfood.”Buddhas sometimes ask knowing, and knowing sometimes do not ask; they ask knowing the right time to ask, and they ask knowing the right time not to ask. Buddhas ask when it is beneficial, not when it is unbeneficial; in regard to what is unbeneficial, the Buddhas have destroyed the bridge. Buddhas question the monks for two reasons: to give a teaching or to lay down a training rule.
And the Master said to those monks, “In what way, monks, did you spend the rains at ease, without having any trouble getting almsfood?”
And they told the Master what had happened.
“But had you really achieved those superhuman qualities?”
“Yes, Master.”
The Buddha rebuked them, “Monks, how can you for the sake of your stomachs praise one another’s superhuman qualities to lay people? This will not give rise to confidence in those without it … And, monks, this training rule should be recited thus:
Final ruling
‘If a monk truthfully tells a person who is not fully ordained of a superhuman quality, he commits an offense entailing confession.’”That is exactly how it appears at that website.
I have highlighted the incorrect translation of a segment of the “story behind the rule”, as well as the reported “Final Ruling”.In the Pali version, this is how that particular section is: “Atha kho te bhikkhū bhagavato etamatthaṃ ārocesuṃ. “Kacci pana vo, bhikkhave, bhūtan”ti? “Bhūtaṃ, bhagavā”ti.”
The first part “Atha kho te bhikkhū bhagavato etamatthaṃ ārocesuṃ” does mean “And they (bhikkhus) told the Master what had happened”.However, the correct translation of the rest “Kacci pana vo, bhikkhave, bhūtan”ti?” “Bhūtaṃ, bhagavā”ti SHOULD BE:
“Bhikkhus, was that a lie? (meaning the attainments that they claimed)”. And the bhikkhus replied that indeed they had lied (“Bhūtaṃ, bhagavā”ti.).Here, both English and Chinese translators (per account of Puthujjana) had incorrectly translated the question by the Buddha and the answer by the bhikkhus.
Bhuta means something that does not have real existence, and here it means a lie.
– Even today, the Sinhala word for ghost is “a bhuta”, since most people do not believe in the existence of ghosts.
– Patavi, apo, tejo, vayo are called “cattari maha bhutani” because their origins are the non-matter, i.e., gati and are really mind-created; see, “The Origin of Matter – Suddhātthaka ”. They all are going to be destroyed at the end of the Maha Kappa.However, this real meaning of the bhuta in this context is not appreciated by most people today. Thus the wrong translation.
One can see that the real explanation based on the story makes more sense, and thus the Vinaya rule should be (and is per correct translation of “Yo pana bhikkhu anupasampannassa uttarimanussadhammaṃ āroceyya bhūtasmiṃ, pācittiyan”ti.
– The key is “anupasampannassa uttarimanussadhammaṃ” which means a bhikkhu who has NOT attained those claimed attainments (uttarimanussadhamma).
– Anupasampannassa comes from “na + upasampannassa” or “not attained”, just like Anāgāmi comes from “na + āgāmi” or “not coming back (to kāma loka)”.Those bhikkhus falsely declared attainments in order to be treated well.
– A related key point is that one with such attainments would not have made such declarations with the intention of getting a better treatment (even if they had attainments). They knew that people offered the best they had to them (because of the declared attainments) even without feeding their families properly.The correct rule is: “‘If a bhikkhu untruthfully declares a high-achievement (i.e., magga phala or jhana), he commits an offense’”
I am just curious. What is the Chinese translation of the following verse in SN 55. 8, SN 55.10, SN 12.42, AN 9.27, ..
For example, in AN 9.27, the last verse is: “Yato kho, gahapati, ariyasāvakassa imāni pañca bhayāni verāni vūpasantāni honti, imehi ca catūhi sotāpattiyaṅgehi samannāgato hoti, so ākaṅkhamāno attanāva attānaṃ byākareyya: ‘khīṇanirayomhi khīṇatiracchānayoni khīṇapettivisayo khīṇāpāyaduggativinipāto; sotāpannohamasmi avinipātadhammo niyato sambodhiparāyaṇo’”ti.Puthujjana asked: “Does “upasampannassa” related to “upasampada”?”
No. They are different. But that could be the confusion in those translations.
“Upasamapadā” is a “higher state” (not a magga phala, but given with seniority and other mundane qualifications) to bhikkhus.
– When one becomes a bhikkhu first level is “Sāmanera”, and then “upasampadā”.Puthujjana wrote: “The training rule on telling truthfully :
‘If a monk truthfully tells a person who is not fully ordained of a superhuman quality, he commits an offense entailing confession.’”
There is no offense: if he truthfully tells one who is fully ordained; if he is the first offender.”That is not my translation. I can only speak for what I wrote.
My comment on y not’s post was to thank him for the reference and to put in the link correctly. That does not mean I agree with that translation.
I can say without any doubt that “anupasampannassa” DOES NOT mean “truthfully”.
Thanks for the reference, y not.
Your linking did not work, though. So, I put in the link.Here is the way to add a link: (from: “How to Reply to a Forum Question“):
3. In particular, it is good to use the “link” button to provide a link to another post or even external links. In order to describe the procedure, let us assume that you want to provide a link to the “Abhidhamma – Introduction” post at the website.
– Open that post in a separate window.
– Copy the title of the post (Abhidhamma – Introduction) and paste in the text you are writing.
– Select that text with the title (Abhidhamma – Introduction) and click the “link” button. It will open a new window to put in the web address.
– Go to that other open window with the “Abhidhamma – Introduction” post and copy the web address from that web page (which in this case is https://puredhamma.net/abhidhamma/abhidhamma-introduction/”).
– Come back and paste that to provide the link at the URL input.
– You can also check the little box “Open link in a new tab”, so that when someone clicks on the link, it will be opened in a new window.4. Follow the same procedure to provide an external link.
Puthujjana wrote: “pācittiya 8:
“yo pana bhikkhu anupasampannassa uttarimanussadhammaṃ āroceyya, bhūtasmiṃ pācittiyaṃ.”Uttarimanussadhamma does mean magga phala or jhana.
Āroceyya means “announced”.But the key is the word “anupasampannassa uttarimanussadhammaṃ” which means a bhikkhu who has NOT attained those claimed attainments.
– To declare an attainment falsely is an offense.
– Anupasampannassa comes from “na + upasampannassa” or “not attained”, just like Anāgāmi comes from “na + āgāmi” or “not coming back (to kāma loka)”.The following verse is in many suttas, including SN 55. 8, SN 55.10, SN 12.42, AN 9.27, ..
For example, in AN 9.27, the last verse is: “Yato kho, gahapati, ariyasāvakassa imāni pañca bhayāni verāni vūpasantāni honti, imehi ca catūhi sotāpattiyaṅgehi samannāgato hoti, so ākaṅkhamāno attanāva attānaṃ byākareyya: ‘khīṇanirayomhi khīṇatiracchānayoni khīṇapettivisayo khīṇāpāyaduggativinipāto; sotāpannohamasmi avinipātadhammo niyato sambodhiparāyaṇo’”ti.ākaṅkhamāno means “if one wishes”
Byākareyya means to “state’ or “say”.
“attanāva attānaṃ” means “one about oneself”. In other words, he/she can declare only about what he/she has attained.Thus the above verse can be translated: “ when a Noble Disciple has removed the five types of bhaya (dangers) and is endowed with these four factors of stream-entry, then if he wishes he may state about himself: ‘I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of niraya, animal realm, etc and headed for the Arahanthood!’”
However, only a Buddha is able to perceive the specific attainments of others.
Puthujjana wrote: “How can a puthujjana know who is an Ariya? As monastic is not allow to reveal their attainment to a lay puthujjana.”
That is not correct. There are several suttas that clearly state one could declare the magga phala attainments. One is the Maha Parinibbana Sutta (DN 16). It is at the end of the following section of this long sutta, specifically regarding the Sotapanna stage:
https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/dn16#14Also, there was a long discussion on this topic sometime back:
“Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala“Puthujjana wrote: “Not annihilation, so does that means that there are still “something” exists after an Arahant had passed away?”
The correct way to think about a “living being” is not think as an ever present “person”, but as a collection of five aggregates that keeps changing even moment-to-moment. It is a good idea to take time and slowly re-read the full post again and again.
For an unfathomable time, we all have evolved without a pause. Even in the present life we evolved from a tiny cell in mother’s womb to the present dense body.
– Before that our five aggregates evolved as devas, brahmas, animals, petas, etc. There was no “identity” as “person X”.
– Even in this life, we do not look or think like the same “person” a few years ago.This of course takes a lot of contemplation to fully understand. That is why becoming a Sotapanna is not so easy. The Buddha, upon attaining the Buddhahood, realized how hard would it be for normal humans to comprehend his deep Dhamma.
– But it can be done, and it is a gradual process, as explained in the post that I mentioned earlier: “Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?“.Going back to your question of “Not annihilation, so does that means that there are still “something” exists after an Arahant had passed away?”
It may become clear by realizing that Nibbana and the “this world of 31 realms” are what are called “mututally exclusive”, i.e., “either here or there”. If one is a living being in this world, he/she has not yet “merged with Nibbana”. Even an Arahant has not reached “Parinibbana” or “full Nibbaba” until the death of the physical body.
– Once merged with Nibbana, there is no trace of that lifestream in “this world of 31 realms”.Another way to say it: “This world of 31 realms” has citta, cetasika, and rupa as paramatta Dhamma. They are arise via the Paticca Samuppada process.
– Nibbana is the “state” that is reached when all those are stopped from arising. There are no citta, cetasika, rupa “in Nibbana”.“ālaya” means to get attracted to something/someone.
– “Analayo” means removal all attachments.“Mutti” is freedom, similar to vimutti.
From the “Khandha Sutta (SN 56.13)“: “Katamañca, bhikkhave, dukkhanirodhaṃ ariyasaccaṃ? Yo tassāyeva taṇhāya asesavirāganirodho cāgo paṭinissaggo mutti anālayo—idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, dukkhanirodhaṃ ariyasaccaṃ“.
Translated: “And what, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering? It is the remainder-less fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up, breaking bonds, freedom with the removal of all attachments. This is called the noble truth of the cessation of suffering”.
Regarding the questions:
“Questions:
1. In relationship to the objects/bhava/or antarbhava(?) that is being craved…is one of the steps towards nirodha actually recognizing(through meditation) the “timeless” space where my self-concept, rajasic energy, things “moving” becomes CUT?2. I’ve always assumed but now i’m asking…mutti and the entire “entanglement” language even the “endless knot” of buddhism actually has to do with the gandhabbaya right? It’s the gandhabbaya that is entangled through the various citta vritti and karmic patterns leading to our asavas > anusayas?”
Losing attachment (analayo) means losing to attachment to the five aggregates of rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana (that means basically losing attachment to everything in this world, which is accomplished only at the Arahant stage). Then one becomes free (mutti).
– See the post that I published today: “Yamaka Sutta (SN 22.85) – Arahanthood Is Not Annihilation but End of Suffering“.
