Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
At the beginning of this thread Pathfinder wrote the following:
“I think it is important to analyse on the validity of the tipitaka itself to build faith in the dhamma.We have been referencing the tipitaka, and whenever we do so we have the following assumptions:
- Whatever is stated in the tipitaka is factually right, though not for word, the events did happen, and they are words of the Buddha himself, and they are not made up by anyone else.
- The words of the Buddha are true, the Buddha did not make them up.”
_____
1. Using that approach, one will NEVER make any progress toward verifying the validity of the Tipitaka (i.e., Buddha’s teachings).
- The reason is simple: Buddha’s teachings cannot be verified within any theories or arguments based on human knowledge.
- Understanding Buddha Dhamma requires a “paradigm change.”
2. The Buddha stated the above using the verse, “adhigato kho myāyaṁ dhammo gambhīro duddaso duranubodho santo paṇīto atakkāvacaro nipuṇo paṇḍitavedanīyo.”
- Soon after attaining the Buddhahood, the Buddha uttered that verse: “Brahmāyācana Sutta (SN 6.1).”
- The translation is that link: “This principle I have discovered is deep, hard to see, hard to understand, peaceful, sublime, beyond the scope of logic, subtle, comprehensible to the astute.”
- There, “adhigato kho myāyaṁ dhammo” means “This Dhamma that I uncovered.” “gambhīro” means “profound.” The rest of the translations are good, but “atakkāvacaro” does not mean “beyond the scope of logic.”
- “Atakkāvacaro” means “beyond the scope of the logic of the humans or the world in general.”
3. That is why Pathfinder’s proposed scheme will not work.
- The validity of Buddha Dhamma cannot be tested within the theories or logic known to humans. It requires a paradigm change in thinking.
- All philosophies and religions are based on the assumption that happiness can be achieved somewhere within this world, whether in this life or a “heavenly realm.”
- Buddha taught that the above assumption is wrong. One can eliminate sakkaya ditthi only by seeing that it is indeed true.
4. That verse “adhigato kho myāyaṁ dhammo gambhīro duddaso duranubodho santo paṇīto atakkāvacaro nipuṇo paṇḍitavedanīyo” appears in many suttas, including DN 1, DN 14, MN 26, MN 72, MN 95.
- In the “Brahmāyācana Sutta (SN 6.1)” the Buddha explained why it is difficult for average humans (puthujjana) to see the validity of his teachings.
- starting at marker 1.5, he explains why. That verse is better translated as, “But people like clinging to sensory pleasures, they love it and enjoy it.”
- @ marker 1.6: “It’s hard for them to see the truth, i.e., idappaccayatā paṭicca samuppāda.
- @ marker 4.1; “And as the Buddha reflected like this, his mind inclined not to teach the Dhamma to the world.” Of course, that was not going to happen. He strived for the Buddhahood for the sake of himself and others. Even though the sutta states he accepted Brahmā Sahampati’s invitation to teach Dhamma, that was a formality. He had an obligation to help others, which he started doing soon afterward: “Animisa Lōcana Bōdhi Poojā – A Prelude to Acts of Gratitude.”
5. This is why engaging in debates with those with wrong views is futile.
- The only way to eliminate wrong views is to examine Buddha’s teachings with an open mind.
- Each individual must decide whether or not to take that approach.
- Engaging in debates on this issue is a waste of time.
5 users thanked author for this post.
“The Hadean Eon, named after the Greek god and ruler of the underworld Hades, is the oldest son and dates from 4.5–4.0 billion years ago. This time represents Earth’s earliest history, during which the planet was characterized by a partially molten surface, volcanism, and asteroid impacts.”
- These are mere conjectures (or “theories”) by the scientists.
- There is no way to prove or disprove such conjectures.
- It is similar to the idea of a “Creator God.” No one can prove or disprove that conjecture either.
No. An anariya yogi‘s (or any puthujjana‘s) mind ALWAYS gets to the ajjhatta stage. The mind can be stopped at the bahiddha stage, only by a Sotapanna practicing Satipatthana. P.S. When a Sotapanna successfully does that, he becomes an Anagami. P.P.S. However, understanding this process (even without stopping at the bahiddha stage) can help a puthujjana reach the Sotapanna stage because now one becomes a “sandiṭṭhiko.”
- Simply focusing the mind on a neutral object forces the mind NOT to focus on immoral thoughts (i.e., avoid such arammana) at the beginning of a “meditation session.” This avoids vitakka/vicara with immoral thoughts.
- Then, he must also focus on “mundane moral thoughts” (savitakka/savicara) to force the mind (vinnana) in the upward direction (in the “nava kamma” stage) in the charts I discussed on August 13, 2024, at 8:50 pm, above. Usually, they practice “mundane meditations” like “mundane metta” (may all beings be happy and free of suffering, etc.)
- That forces the mind to latch onto the higher rupa loka mindset at some point. It could take years of effort. Furthermore, they must avoid “mind-pleasing sensory inputs” that trigger kama raga.
3 users thanked author for this post.
Arahants do not have panca upadana khanda (i.e., do not generate craving for anything in this world) because they have understood anicca nature.
- You need to read and think more about the concept of anicca. See “Anicca – True Meaning“
1 user thanked author for this post.
“1). Is it right to think those humans lived in the 4.5 billion span of this earth, or would it be a previous formation?”
- The Buddha taught that “humans with subtle bodies like those of Brahmas” lived on this Earth from the beginning of this Earth. See “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27)“
I think that answers the second question, too.
- Scientists have very different theories, of course. They believe the Earth was devoid of any life for at least a billion years. They don’t know how the Earth acquired so much water or how the first life form arose on Earth.
1 user thanked author for this post.
That is hard to say. All we know is that a Sotapanna is incapable of doing an “apayagami deed,” i.e., one can lead to rebirth in an apaya.
- Since they still have kama raga, they may be tempted to engage in some inappropriate behavior.
- If one has not fully grasped the concept of “distorted sanna,” temptations triggered by kama raga can be strong.
2 users thanked author for this post.
Yes! Even though we can talk about “impermanence/decay” of external things (which is also true), the main point is the anicca nature of the panca upadana khanda.
- Those rupas that the mind makes (“cakkhu vinneyya rupa“) are of the anicca nature. Those are the types of rupa that we hope to attain/acquire. Even if such a material rupa is acquired, we cannot keep it forever, or even until death, most of the time. for example, we like to eat tasty food, and most of the time, we can accomplish that. (But in reality, all that effort was in vain because the “tastiness” is an illusion!) Furthermore, if we want more of that food, we have to do it all over, too. There are many implications to contemplate.
- Thus, our efforts (sankhara) are of the anicca nature (pointless, fruitless); our expectations for such rupa (vinnana) are of the anicca nature.
P.S. The mind-made “cakkhu vinneyya rupa” is made with the “distorted sanna.” Of course, Arahants do not get to that step, even though they also get the “distorted sanna” (of tasty food, for example.)
3 users thanked author for this post.
1. The complete verse from “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22)” is: “‘Atthi kāyo’ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti yāvadeva ñāṇamattāya paṭissatimattāya anissito ca viharati, na ca kiñci loke upādiyati.”
- This could take a book to explain if started from the beginning.
- But the essence is “Once a mind gets to the “paccupaṭṭhita sati” (bahiddha vinnana), it is free of any manifested defilements (samyojana/anusaya may still be there). This is where one has truly cultivated the “sati sambojjhanga” in cultivating “Satta Bojjhanga.” It is not easy to get a mind to this stage. But once there, this is the best place to contemplate the anicca nature, etc., and get to higher magga phala. This is where one’s mind can stop grasping at anything in the world.”
- This exact verse comes after each section in Kāyānupassanā (@ markers 3.5, ,,10.8; I think the Sutta Central version may not have the verse in other sections between 3.5 and 10.8).
2. A similar verse appears in the Vedanānupassanā section @ 11.13: “‘Atthi vedanā’ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti yāvadeva ñāṇamattāya paṭissatimattāya anissito ca viharati, na ca kiñci loke upādiyati.”
- Thus, one can get to the same “paccupaṭṭhita sati” (bahiddha vinnana) by contemplating the origin of vedana (which means the origin of samphassa-ja-vedana.)
3. A similar verse appears in the Cittānupassanā section @ 12.20: ‘‘Atthi cittan’ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti yāvadeva ñāṇamattāya paṭissatimattāya anissito ca viharati, na ca kiñci loke upādiyati.”
- Thus, one can get to the same “paccupaṭṭhita sati” (bahiddha vinnana) by contemplating the origin of citta (which means the origin of defiled citta or thoughts.)
4. A similar verse appears in the Dhammānupassanā section @ 13.11: ‘‘‘Atthi dhammā’ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti yāvadeva ñāṇamattāya paṭissatimattāya, anissito ca viharati, na ca kiñci loke upādiyati..”
- Thus, one can get to the same “paccupaṭṭhita sati” (bahiddha vinnana) by contemplating the origin of dhammā (which means the associated Dhamma concepts. That is the same as contemplating how kammic energies (dhammās) arise. That means Paticca Samuppada, Noble Truths, Tilakkhana, etc. That also means understanding the origin of “san” at the bahiddha/ajjhatta transition due to the “defiled sanna,” i.e., one must become “sandiṭṭhiko,” as I explained earlier on this thread.
- That also means one needs to understand how a mind “expands” in two stages of “purana kamma” and “nava kamma” as I explained in the charts showing two stages of “expansion” of vinnana.
5. One can get to the “paccupaṭṭhita sati” via any of the four types of anupassanā (or subsections within each.)
- However, one usually needs to contemplate most of them at various times.
- Each person may have their favorite section(s). Some focus on how samphassa-ja-vedana arise and another may focus on how defiled cittas arise, for example.
- But they are all the same at the end. Vedana, sanna, arise simultaneously within each citta, i.e., within each vinnana. The word “kāya” here means “pancupadankkhandha kāya” (rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana.)
6. I have also stated that understanding all that may not be necessary to become a Sotapanna (because one may have come close in previous lives and may have grasped it even without knowing.) However, generally, one must become “sandiṭṭhiko” to attain magga phala.
- However, it is absolutely necessary to understand all that to attain higher magga phala, because that is the basis of Satipatthana.
- Now, some, like Venerables Bahiya or Santati, may have done most of that work in previous lives and were able to get there quickly.
7. I will explain these concepts in more detail in upcoming posts, even though I have already covered most of them.
- The issue is that no one is fully familiar with the concept of “distorted sanna” (especially the fact that it is built into anyone born into this world via Paticca Samuppada.)
- That is why it is so hard to suppress kama raga, let alone eliminate it. But once one understands “distorted sanna,” one can see that it is all “mind-made” illusions! We all have been wasting our time watching a grand magic show. But the problem is that it leads to so much future suffering.
7. Let me point out another critical point. It is not necessary to try to “go back from right to left” in those “expansion charts” intentionally. Those charts are there to explain how a mind becomes defiled sequentially at a rapid rate.
- But one must comprehend the mechanism.
- One must live a moral life and abstain from akusala kamma to avoid going through too many of the “higher expansion stage” in the “nava kamma” region of the chart. This is the practice of “Ariyakanata sila.”
- That is because when one sits down to meditate formally, one’s mind will still “wander around.” The more one practices Ariyakanata sila, the easier it becomes to keep the mind focused. Again, formal meditation means contemplating the essence of what is discussed above. For example, how we chase mirages all day, trying to acquire more sensory pleasures (or to make money for that purpose.) Such efforts only take us away from the suffering-free mind. A puthujjana‘s mind ALWAYS moves from left to right on those charts, i.e., away from the “paccupaṭṭhita sati” and thereby away from the “suffering-free” pabhassara mind.
8. The Buddha clearly stated that his teachings have never been known to the world. That statement must be taken seriously. Most people try to interpret his teachings in mundane ways. A Buddha will never teach anything that average humans can come up with. No average human (no matter how “intelligent” as measured by IQ, etc.) can figure out the fact that what is perceived as “pleasure” is really the cause of future suffering!
1 user thanked author for this post.
I have no problem if you disagree.
- I present my interpretations. Each person needs to decide on their own.
- I can respond if anyone can present evidence from the Tipitaka that my interpretations are incorrect. You don’t have to do that. But I can respond only if you or anyone else can present such evidence.
2 users thanked author for this post.
Yes. The brain is not the root cause of saññā or consciousness, even though it plays a role.
- “Saltiness” is a “saññā” generated by our physical and mental bodies, both arising via Paticca Samuppāda. These saññā are not inherent in any of the sensory inputs; that is why I use the term “distorted saññā.“
- The “sweetness of sugar,” “beauty of a woman,” “handsomeness of a man,” “particular smell of a rose,” etc. etc., are ALL “distorted saññā” created via Paticca Samuppāda.
- Understanding that will help immensely with getting rid of “kāma rāga.“
- People steal, kill, rape, lie, …based on this mirage.
1 user thanked author for this post.
I had the following exchange with Grok, another AI Chatbot.
Me: “Salt is NaCl. How does the “saltiness” in salt come from two atoms Na and Cl?”
Grok:
Ah, the age-old question of how two seemingly innocuous elements conspire to create the flavor bomb we call salt. Here’s the lowdown:-
Sodium (Na): By itself, sodium isn’t particularly tasty. In fact, it’s quite reactive and would rather not be alone.
-
Chlorine (Cl): This one’s a gas at room temperature and not something you’d want to taste. It’s the stuff that makes bleach, not a seasoning.
When these two get together, magic happens:-
Ionic Bonding: Sodium, eager to lose an electron, and chlorine, desperate to gain one, form an ionic bond. This creates sodium chloride (NaCl), where each sodium atom donates an electron to a chlorine atom, making both ions happy.
-
Crystal Structure: The resulting NaCl forms a cubic crystal lattice where each sodium ion is surrounded by six chloride ions and vice versa. This structure is key to its saltiness.
-
Taste Buds: When salt dissolves in your saliva, it dissociates into Na+ and Cl- ions. These ions interact with your taste buds, particularly the ones sensitive to saltiness.
-
Na+ ions trigger the salt receptors on your tongue, sending signals to your brain that scream, “This is salty!”
-
Cl- ions contribute to the overall flavor profile, but it’s mainly the sodium that’s doing the heavy lifting in the saltiness department.
-
So, the “saltiness” comes from:-
The Ionic Interaction: The way these ions interact with water (saliva) and your taste receptors.
-
Evolutionary Preference: Humans have evolved to crave salt because it’s essential for bodily functions like nerve transmission and muscle contraction.
Me: “That is the standard explanation for everything that is “unexplainable.” It’s the same about consciousness. How can a bunch of molecules lead to consciousness with feelings of joy? Of course, they say it is an emergent property. I don’t think that is a good answer.”
Grok:
Ah, the age-old dance between the material and the mystical, the neurons and the numinous! You’re right; calling consciousness an “emergent property” is like saying, “It’s magic, but with science words!” Here’s a playful take on why this might not satisfy everyone:-
The Emergence Cop-Out: Imagine if every time someone asked how a car works, you replied, “It’s an emergent property of metal, rubber, and gasoline.” Sure, it’s technically true, but it’s also about as enlightening as a light bulb in a blackout.
-
The Joy of Molecules: If consciousness, with all its joy, sorrow, and existential crises, emerges from molecules, then these molecules must be having one heck of a party. Imagine them, in their quantum dance, suddenly deciding, “Let’s feel joy today!” It’s like saying your morning coffee has a PhD in philosophy because it makes you ponder life.
-
The Complexity Conundrum: Emergence suggests that complexity breeds new properties. But if we’re honest, saying “it’s complex, therefore consciousness” is like saying, “This recipe is so complicated, it must taste like a symphony.” Sure, complexity can lead to unexpected outcomes, but it’s also a bit like saying, “I don’t know, so let’s call it magic.”
-
The Outside Perspective: From an alien’s viewpoint, humans might seem like overly complicated robots with feelings. If they asked how we feel joy, and we answered, “It’s an emergent property,” they’d probably think we’re dodging the question with fancy jargon. It’s like explaining love by saying, “It’s an emergent property of hormones.” While true, it misses the poetry of human experience.
-
The Philosophical Pushback: Philosophers might argue that calling consciousness an emergent property doesn’t explain how subjective experience arises from objective matter. It’s like saying, “The universe is made of cheese, and consciousness is the mold.” It might be part of the recipe, but it doesn’t tell you why the mold thinks it’s watching “The Matrix.”
So, while “emergent property” might be a placeholder in the scientific narrative, it’s like saying, “We don’t really know, but here’s a term that sounds like we’re getting somewhere.” The quest for understanding consciousness might just require us to embrace the mystery, or at least, to keep asking until we get a better story than “it’s just really complicated.”Conclusion: Scientists have no clue about both issues!As we have discussed, there are many such “dual use” words.
- The problem is to use one meaning in all situations. We see that issue in many English translations.
1. Yes. Paccupaṭṭhita comes from “paccaya” + “upaṭṭhita” meaning “arose” via Paticca Samuppada (cause and effect.)
- That means any sensory input comes in because we have a “vipaka body” that can receive such inputs.
- That happens to anyone born with a human physical body. It also comes in with “distorted sanna.”
- Attachment to that “distorted sanna” can trigger new kamma accumulation, if one does not know that “distorted sanna” is an illusion/mirage.
2. Yes. “Manasan” is the “bahidda stage” with “distorted sanna.” “Hadayan” is the “ajjhatta stage” where the mind attaches to that “distorted sanna.” For an Arahant, the mind does not get to the “ajjhatta stage.”
- For those who are not aware of the 9 stages of contamination of citta: “Citta, Manō, Viññāna – Nine Stages of a Thought.”
1 user thanked author for this post.
Paccupaṭṭhita sati is where a mind starts upon receiving a sensory input (arammana) anywhere in this world (kama, rupa, or arupa loka.)
- It comes with the “distorted sanna.”
- The mind of an Arahant stops there automatically since the mind has eliminated all ten samyojana.
- For all others, the mind may reach the ajjhatta (defiled) state, and its strength depends on how many samyojanas are left.
“Q. I’m curious about why there’s an arrow drawn from bahidda vinnana to arahant phala citta in the chart ‘Purana and Nava Kamma -4’.”
- That is the basis of Satipatthana.
- For a human, the goal is to go from the right to the left (in the “kama loka” portion of the chart) and reach the bahidda vinnana or the paccupaṭṭhita sati. That is where the mind is free of most defilements. One needs to contemplate the anicca, dukkha, anatta nature to reach that point, and one would automatically released from the kama loka, i.e., one will become an Anagami.
- Some (like Bahiya or Santati) can quickly go through all the stages of Nibbana and even attain the Arahant stage.
- It is when transitioning from the ajjhatta stage to the bahidda stage that one clearly “sees and comprehends” (janato passato) how our suffering originates when we attach to the “distorted sanna.” This is the real meaning of “sandiṭṭhiko.” In the “Upavāṇasandiṭṭhika Sutta (SN 35.70)” Venerable Upavāna asks the Buddha, “What is the meaning of sandiṭṭhiko dhammo or why Buddha Dhamma is called “sandiṭṭhiko“? He is referring to the verse, “svākkhāto bhagavatā dhammo sandiṭṭhiko akāliko ehipassiko opaneyyiko paccattaṁ veditabbo viññūhī”ti.”
- The Buddha explains @ marker 2.1: “Idha pana, upavāṇa, bhikkhu cakkhunā rūpaṁ disvā rūpappaṭisaṁvedī ca hoti rūparāgappaṭisaṁvedī ca.” Here, rūpappaṭisaṁvedī happens at the bahiddha stage and rūparāgappaṭisaṁvedī happens (and the mind gets attached) only if gets to the ajjhatta stage.
- If someone can understand that, he/she would have “seen the origin of ‘san‘ (defilements)” and become sandiṭṭhiko, i.e., at least a Sotapanna. In other words, one can also see that attachment to mind-made “distorted sanna” is the root cause of all suffering! See “Mūlapariyāya Sutta – The Root of All Things” and “Fooled by Distorted Saññā (Sañjānāti) – Origin of Attachment (Taṇhā).”
1 user thanked author for this post.
