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To add a bit to Tobias’s post:
Moha is a strong version of avijja.
– If one has the 10 types of miccha ditthi then one can act with moha. With moha, one cannot even comprehend Paticca Samuppada.
– Someone who has overcome/removed 10 types of miccha ditthi can start comprehending the Noble Truths/PS/Tilakkhana if exposed to the correct versions.1. The reason that the PS starts with “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra” is that avijjā is the root cause.
– If one fully understands PS (an Arahant), one would have fully understood how future suffering arises by generating abhisaṅkhāra due to avijjā. That means an Arahant’s mind would not attach to any arammana regardless of how enticing it is.However, no one acts with avijjā at all times. Even the worst immoral person may engage in moral deeds sometimes.
– Thus, avijjā remains “hidden” most of the time. The Pali word is “anusaya.”That avijjā comes to surface when we get attached to an enticing sensory input (arammana).
– That is why the PS is normally TRIGGERED by sensory input (arammana).That initial attachment is tanha.
– Upon attaching, the mind will start trying to “get more of that arammana” by “keeping that arammana close”. That is the “tanha paccaya upadana” step.
– That is when one starts acting with avijja by thinking defiled thoughts (mano and vaci abhisankhara), speaking, and doing unwise things (vaci and kaya abhisankhara).
– Then the other steps will follow: “sankhara paccaya vinnana“, “vinnana paccaya namarupa“, etc.2. Sometimes it may not be clear that avijjā has been triggered by an arammana.
– It is clear that we get attached to things that we see, hear, taste, smell, or touch (five physical senses). However, there is a sixth way that an arammana comes in and that is not always evident.
– That sixth way is for an arammana to come directly to the mind. That is the case when we had ALREADY formed an expectation (i.e., had formed an attachment) with an arammana that came through the five physical senses sometime back. For example, one may have seen an attractive person a few days ago and had formed an expectation to date that person. Then that can come back to the mind as an arammana at any time.
– Details on that at, “Chachakka Sutta – Six Types of Vipāka Viññāna“. That is a bit deeper post. The point is that an arammana can come in via one of the six senses as a vipaka vinnana. So, another way to say is: that the PS process is triggered by a vipaka vinnana. There are different ways to express the same concept.3. The reason that I wrote the post that you brought up is the following. Sometime back, Upekkha100 asked about the difference between tanha and upadana at this discussion forum. It could be useful to read that discussion: “Difference between Tanha and Upadana”
Could the word be “parikappa”?
If not, where did you come across it? A sutta?
Hello Jorg,
You wrote: “It’s somewhat confusing to me in regard to the PS cycle, since there it’s avija paccaya sankhara, paccaya vinnana all the way to tanha paccaya upadana. But here, in the chart, it shows sankhara are happening in between these two steps.”
Even though the PS cycle, in its standard form, starts with “avijja paccaya sankhara” that NEVER happens in practice.
– We don’t just start acting with avijja without a reason.It is only if we get attached to a sensory input (arammana) that we start acting with avijja.
– First, we attach with tanha.
– Then it is at the “tanha paccaya upadana” step, that we start acting with avijja. “Upadana” means to “keep that arammana close” and try to get more enjoyment.
– That is explained in #4 of the post.That is an important point. I tried to explain it systematically in the new series of posts:
“Paṭicca Samuppāda During a Lifetime”If you read those starting with the first post there, it could be more clear.
Please feel free to ask questions from any of those posts.
Hello,
You wrote, ” In some of your writings you say that we can’t really say much about what nibbana is like, because it is so far beyond any worldly experience. And in one place you even say that one arrives at nibbana at the 8th jhana.”
That is not true. Please provide the link to my post and quote from it.
One attains Nibbana when all defilements (lobha, dosa, moha) are removed from one’s mind. That is Arahanthood.
– But Nibbana becomes complete when that Arahant dies and is not reborn in any of the 31 realms in this world. That is “Parinibbana” or “full Nibbana” for an Arahant.“dhammā” needs to be understood in the context.
In “Katame dhammā anidassanaappaṭighā?” the question is asked: “WHAT are anidassanaappaṭighā?”
– That DOES NOT imply that “Nibbāna is a dhammā”
There are dhammā that come in “manañca paṭicca dhamme ca uppajjāti manoviññāṇaṃ.”
– On the way to Arahanthood one experiences various stages of magga phala via contact with the mind.However, once an Arahant attains Parinibbana, there are no more “contacts with the mind” since that Arahant is not reborn with a hadaya vatthu.
Does that answer the question? May be I am not understanding the question.
It means, “a rupa that cannot be seen, cannot be touched, and belongs to the dhammāyatana (i.e., a dhammā) OR Nibbāna dhātu”
– They can make contact with the mind.You are correct, Tobias.
There is one component in rupakkhandha which is sanidassana. That is “paccuppanna rupa” or “rupa that we are seeing at the present moment” which are only “vanna rupa” as well.
The past and future parts of rupakkhandha are anidassana.
Tobias wrote:
“Appatigha are the khandhas, except rupakkhandha.”That is not quite right.
The verses you quoted are not for khandhas. They are for “āyatana” or “indriya“. Those are cakkhu, sota, ghana, jivha,kaya types of pasada rupa.
Khandhas are mental impressions.
See, “Difference Between Physical Rūpa and Rūpakkhandha”The following post is from Tobias G:
In “Tikanikkhepa” contains types of dhammā:
2.3.1.22. Sanidassanattika
Katame dhammā sanidassanasappaṭighā? Rūpāyatanaṁ— ime dhammā sanidassanasappaṭighā.
Katame dhammā anidassanasappaṭighā? Cakkhāyatanaṁ, sotāyatanaṁ, ghānāyatanaṁ, jivhāyatanaṁ, kāyāyatanaṁ, saddāyatanaṁ, gandhāyatanaṁ, rasāyatanaṁ, phoṭṭhabbāyatanaṁ— ime dhammā anidassanasappaṭighā.
Katame dhammā anidassanaappaṭighā? Vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅkhārakkhandho, viññāṇakkhandho; yañca rūpaṁ anidassanaṁ appaṭighaṁ dhammāyatanapariyāpannaṁ; asaṅkhatā ca dhātu— ime dhammā anidassanaappaṭighā.
——————
Sappatigha are all internal pasada rupa (chakku, sota, ghana, jivha, kaya), and all external rupa (ruparupa, sadda, gandha, rasa, photthaba).
Appatigha are the khandhas, except rupakkhandha.
Hello Dipobhasadhamma,
There are two main usages in Buddha Dhamma. In both, “paramattha” (“parama” + “attha”) means “ultimate truth” and “sammuti” means “conventional or adopted by humans”.
1. The sammuti version of our world is to say it has humans, animals, Devas, houses, mountains, planets, stars, etc.
– But in Abhidhamma all that can be reduced to 28 types of rupa, 81 types of citta, and 52 types of cetasika. That is the paramattha version.
– Living beings with the perception of sammuti version of the world engage in unfruitful activities seeking pleasures in this world and only end up with NET suffering.
– When that understanding comes, one becomes an Arahant and attains Nibbana (separate from this world). Nibbana is the true paramattha sacca in Buddha Dhamma.2. There are other versions of the usage in different forms.
For example, when we use such expressions as ‘I’, ‘you’, ‘man’, ‘woman’, ‘person’, ‘individual’, we are speaking about things that do not exist in reality. They exist only for short durations within the beginningless rebirth process.
– the Ultimate Truth is that there is no ‘person’, ‘individual’ or ‘I’ that will last. The only unchanging reality is Nibbana.However, while living in this world, an Arahant or even the Buddha needs to use conventional terms like “I” and “me.”
Christian: Mahanama was not certain whether he had attained the Sotapanna stage.
There are many suttas that say a Sotapanna DOES NOT need further guidance. However, further guidance may help accelerate the progress.
– There were many people during the time of the Buddha who simply did not have the desire to make further progress. A good example is Vishaka, who attained the Sotapanna stage at age 7. Even though she visited the Buddha almost daily, she never progressed any further until death.I think we had enough discussion on that issue.
P.S. A “neyya” is an average person who has not yet heard or understood Dhamma to become even a Sotapanna Anugami. Of course, such a person does need guidance.
Lang: Yes. There are many ways to say the same thing.
1. Christian wrote, “I think it’s not really correct as the example of that person who was Sotapanna but didn’t believe it even if Buddha said so,.”
– Does the above sutta say that Susima was a Sotapanna? If so, please quote that verse.
– What I read was that Susima was not a Sotapanna. He had the wrong view that all Arahants would have supernormal powers, could read other people’s minds, etc.
2. Now, Christian’s request to clarify what is meant by the verse, “Pubbe kho, susima, dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṁ, pacchā nibbāne ñāṇan”ti.”
It says that one needs to first understand how to establish oneself in the Dhamma (Pubbe dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṁ) before being able to become a Sotapanna, i.e., “pacchā nibbāne ñāṇan” or the “path to Nibbana” comes later.
– “Pubbe” means “beforehand” AND “pacchā” means “later” or “next”.
– “Pubbe dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṁ” means one needs to first get rid of the ten types of miccha ditthi and also understand that one needs to learn Dhamma from a Noble Person (i.e., the four conditions must be satisfied: “Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala“).The following post is by Christian:
From the “Susimaparibbājaka Sutta (SN 12.70)”
“Pubbe kho, susima, dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṁ, pacchā nibbāne ñāṇan”ti.
This is a very nice sutta, but can we get detail on this verse?
What I’m planning to do is or what I think is missing is a kind of system of reference when the practitioner can use certain information from sutta (types of people + types of practices, if they can attain or they do not have what it got to attain jhana) so there are further instructions, while it’s good to have all the information we have but there need to be the more precise way how people move up from Sotapanna further and what they need to do in their case. I know it may not be perfect because only Buddha can do that precisely but we need to have a general framework. For example, saying “Sotapanna will know the way to Nibbana” I think it’s not really correct as the example of that person who was Sotapanna but didn’t believe it even if Buddha said so, the problem is that “Sotapanna may see the way to Nibbana” but not necessary will execute steps properly even after seeing how things are and this may boil to various factors of types of people and types of knowledge people may have even with attainments, I think it’s very important to look at this otherwise most people will be stuck and dissatisfied even having proper understanding (which I saw this happening already)
The hardest part for a Sotapanna is to overcome kama raga.
– As we know, kama raga and patigha are related and both are lessened at the Sakadagami stage and removed at the Anagami stage.If you read many suttas in the Digha Nikaya like the Samannaphala Sutta (DN 2) that I mentioned above, they always describe the experience of a person who has become a bhikkhu, i.e., left the family life.
– It is quite difficult to overcome kama raga as a householder.
– But, of course, Dhamma will guide one to the Arahant stage even if that happens over a few lives. And, no rebirths in the apayas until that happens.P.S. Furthermore, as time goes on, the time in upacara/anuloma “samadhi states” will get longer. One will be get into jhana with time. As I also mentioned above, that time depends on the ability/habit to get into jhana cultivated over past recent lives.
P.P.S. As we also know, suppression/elimination of kama raga is also a requirement for anariya/Ariya jhana. That again is hard to do while being a “householder.”
