Kusala-Mula Paticca Samuppada

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    • #35644
      raj
      Participant

      I read in one of the links that due to the lack of proper understanding of the Tilakkhana
      there has been no Sottapana in the past 1000 years or more, but due to guidance by jati sottapannas in recent times, there are some sottapannas now.
      My question is even though one may have failed to understand anicca and annata due to wrong interpretations, but if one had faith in the Buddha and had engaged in studying and chanting
      the suttas, contemplated on dhamma and the benevolence of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sanga, then they would have initiated the kusala mula paticca samuppada.
      Having jumped on the kusala mula PS how could they have not attained stream entry down the road (in their next several rebirths)?
      Since the window of the current Buddha sasana is only 5000 years, it is very disheartening that is so hard or almost impossible to attain stream entry unless on understands the tilakkhana.

    • #35648
      Lal
      Keymaster

      “My question is even though one may have failed to understand anicca and anatta due to wrong interpretations, but if one had faith in the Buddha and had engaged in studying and chanting
      the suttas, contemplated on dhamma and the benevolence of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sanga, then they would have initiated the kusala mula paticca samuppada.”

      Sotapanna stage cannot be attained just by engaging in rituals like chanting etc. That only helps set the necessary background.
      – Assuming so is a part of “silabbata paramasa” one of the 3 samyojana that need to be overcome to attain the Sotapanna stage.

      One needs to understand the anicca, dukkha, anatta nature. That means the unfruitfulness/danger in remaining in the rebirth process.

    • #35650
      raj
      Participant

      I was going through different sections. I happened to read the Culavedalla Sutta (MN44)(comment #33205). The 20 types of wrong views have been explained. Just this one sutta can help one free from Sakayadithi. I am sure there must be innumerable such suttas benevolently explained by the Buddha.
      There were several great scholarly monks who lived a life of renunciation, meditation and indulging in scholarly studies in different parts of the world. I am consciously avoiding to name them, so that we can avoid offending them. They would have certainly been able to break the first three fetters and probably all ten.
      My point is, it is better to give the benefit of doubt to these great monks. It is not good to belittle anyone’s spiritual efforts. I refuse to accept that there were no Arayas among them.
      If they were unable to even enter the stream, there is no hope for a lay person like me.

    • #35654
      raj
      Participant

      They would have certainly been able to break the first three fetters and probably all ten fetters was an incorrect statement. I can understand that it is not possible in one lifetime and it would take many lifetimes. But for someone who dedicates more than half a century in austerity and studies the Buddha’s teachings, and is truly sincere, it is hard to believe that they would not have attained stream entry. There are probably many who may not achieve it in one lifetime, but there are also some exceptional monks and scholars. I have read somewhere,(probably on the puredhamma website) that only a Buddha is able to know and gauge a person’s spiritual progress. It is best to give these exceptional monks the benefit of the doubt.
      Even in my life as a lay person I have experienced a guiding force that has helped me every step of the way. I have certainly stumbled and fallen flat from time to time, but have got up and got stronger in my attempts to redeem myself, and have seen a lot of good changes in my character.
      I owe a debt of gratitude to all the monks and scholarly lay people’s talks I have listened to, and to the puredhamma website.

    • #35659
      raj
      Participant

      Sir, I am unable to edit or delete what I have posted. I feel it is better to be silent in some situations. Please delete what I have posted, if you think that it is the best thing to do.
      Thanks.

    • #35660
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Your posts are OK. But as you wrote, it is better to remain silent in some situations.
      – Talking about other people’s magga phala is of no use.

      Posts cannot be edited after about 30 minutes.

    • #35663
      raj
      Participant

      I was glad to see 33205 highlighted in red. I was trying to go back and read it, but did not remember where I read it. I was delighted to be able to access it again. Also 33199 and 33201 are significant posts which culminates in 33205.
      I am so grateful for your having created this wonderful tool to understand Buddha’s teachings.

    • #35664
      cubibobi
      Participant

      “Since the window of the current Buddha sasana is only 5000 years, it is very disheartening that is so hard or almost impossible to attain stream entry unless on understands the tilakkhana.”

      “If they were unable to even enter the stream, there is no hope for a lay person like me.”

      You seem to be discouraged about attaining the sotapanna stage in this life. Without speculating about other people’s magga phala, I believe that there are ariyā right here in the puredhamma.net community.

      “I am so grateful for your having created this wonderful tool to understand Buddha’s teachings.”

      In fact, I believe that Lal created this website primarily to help us get to the sotapanna stage.

      Of the ten dasa akusala, a sotapanna has removed just one: micchā diṭṭhi, and learning Dhamma from the posts here helps remove it. Further more, it brings Nirāmisa Sukha almost right away:

      Learning Buddha Dhamma Leads to Nirāmisa Sukha

      Personally, I feel for the first time ever that the sotapanna anugami stage is within reach in this life time.

      Best,
      Lang

    • #35667
      raj
      Participant

      Thank you Lang for the encouragement and the link to some more information to help one progress on the path.
      I wish you all the best on your spiritual journey.

    • #35757
      raj
      Participant

      I was doing my routine vipassana meditation this morning (a requirement to qualify to sit for long courses in the Goenka centers), and was trying to understand Paticca Samuppada (PS) and how it works.

      I usually have a white noise to avoid distractions (the apartment complex is not ideal for meditation). It was 2.30 am so I decided not to use the white noise (ocean waves) because it was quite. The distractions started with someone driving past with loud music. I started to analyze and try to understand the 12 links of the PS process.

      (1)I have avijjaa (since I am not liberated), (2) my volition was to sit and meditate and

      attemept to cleanse my mind (3) my srota vinnana were activated with the music (4) I was

      thinking about the car and the driver (nama rupa) and trying to send metta to him (5) salayatana (6) phassa had

      already happened when I heard the noise (7) vedana took place in some parts of the body (8) tanha and

      (9) updana was desiring the absence of the music and may be there was clinging for a few seconds.

      My question is, is it necessary for all 12 links in the process to happen at all the times, or in this case the music faded away and bhava, jati, jara/ marana, shokha and paridev did not take place? and did I kind of understand the PS process correctly?

      Goenkaji, in his talks makes the following statement:
      He mentions how a river is constantly flowing and changing, and the entire section of a river is completely different after a given period of time.
      Then he makes another statement of a man dipping in the water and coming out, and he says the man
      who took a dip some seconds ago is completely different from this current person. That our body is constantly undergoing change.
      Is the body or the gandabha which is constantly changing or is it both?
      And is the PS process happening continuously as we are changing continuously 24/7 or does it cease happen sometimes (especially when we are in a deep sleep)

    • #35758
      raj
      Participant

      After thinking a little more about it, I am wondering if this particular chain of PS got initiated
      when the sound contacted my ears, and my ignorance helped initiate the whole process.
      On the other hand, if someone was in deep meditation, that sound would not have initiated the process because that individual would not identify with the sound.
      Is my understanding correct that the chain can be initiated from any point, and in my case it started at phassa, and my avijja contributed to the completion of the process, and it ended with the passing away of the sound (the marana/ceasing of this particular PS process) and my next PS got initiated when the next thought got generated in my mind.
      Also when one chain of PS is happening, can a another event initiate another PS and overlap this one? In other words, if a person is very agitated does he have a whole bunch of PS happening and multiplying and aiding each other like team effort to make that person extremely agitated which make him/her go in a rage?

    • #35760
      Lal
      Keymaster

      “Is the body or the gandhabba which is constantly changing or is it both?”

      – It is both. Of course, moment-to-moment changes are not discernible.

      “And is the PS process happening continuously as we are changing continuously 24/7 or does it cease to happen sometimes (especially when we are in a deep sleep)?”

      – All moment-to-moment changes are not necessarily due to Paticca Samuppada (PS).
      – Such changes can happen in real-time due to PS processes (Idapaccaya PS), but such changes ALWAYS happen because both our physical bodies and gandhabba are saṅkhata. Everything in this world is a saṅkhata that is constantly undergoing changes and destroyed at some time.

      Only akusala-mula PS processes have “avijja paccaya sankhara”.
      – If you start doing vipassana that is not an akusala.
      – You have skipped the step “sankhara paccaya vinnana” in your analysis.

      Try to understand how akusala kamma are initiated by the mind via sankhara;
      Saṅkhāra – What It Really Means

      Also understand the difference between Kusala-mula and Akusala-mula PS processes in the PS section.

    • #35787
      raj
      Participant

      Sir, I was reading the reverse process of PS (avijja nirodah shakhara nirodho) and was wondering if the process works only after one has gained stream entry or it can happen to anyone trying to follow the noble 8 fold path.
      I was thinking it is probably being activated while doing vipassana, because when in meditation, one is stopping vaci shankhara from arising, and I presume the old shankhara rise up to fill in the void, and by simply watching them and not indulging in them, they go away, and other old one arise, and the process of purification starts.
      I had also heard of a preliminary stage of sotapanna called chullu sotapanna (may be I probably misspelled it). Is there such a stage?

    • #35788
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Raj wrote: “..because when in meditation, one is stopping vaci shankhara from arising..”

      Why would one want to stop ALL vaci sankhara during meditation? It is important to realize that “talking to oneself” also involves vaci sankhara. Meditation involves a lot of “good vaci sankhara.”

      You want to stop “bad sankhara” due to “avijja paccaya sankhara”. Those sankhara are associated with immoral thoughts/speech, and actions. Those arise in Akusala-mula PS.
      – But you need to cultivate “good sankhara” in “kusala-mula paccaya sankhara” in Kusala-mula PS. Kusala kamma involve “good sankhara.”

      I am not sure whether you have read the posts I suggested.

      A “Chula Sotapanna” is the same as “Sotapanna Anugami”, someone who is beginning to understand Tilakkhana/Paticca Samuppada/Four Noble Truths. When that understanding gets to a certain level, one becomes a Sotapanna.

    • #35789
      raj
      Participant

      Sir, I did read the posts, but it seems I am reading, listening to talks and trying to memorize suttas and my brain is not registering certain things (too much input).
      I think I need to read and contemplate on what I read. I read and then I listen to a talk immediately after that, or do something else.
      Thanks for the clarifying the matter, I seem to have missed something very important.

    • #36206
      cubibobi
      Participant

      I thought I’d post the following here instead of creating a new thread.

      Thank you for reminding us of the deeper meanings of the terms in Paṭicca Samuppāda.

      Distortion of Pāli Keywords in Paṭicca Samuppāda

      Not too long ago, I listened to a thero teaching “dependent origination” in the reverse order, and he taught it ONLY in the sense of “everything ceases”. My impression was that he was talking about Nirodha Samapatti without using the term.

      For us starting out on the path, we may need to spell out Paṭicca Samuppāda explicitly to cement it in our brain:

      Iti imasmiṁ sati idaṁ hoti, imassuppādā idaṁ uppajjati, yadidaṁ—

      avijjā paccayā abhisaṅkhāra
      abhisaṅkhāra paccayā kamma viññāna
      kamma viññāna paccayā nāmarūpa
      nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana
      salāyatana paccayā samphassa
      samphassa paccayā samphassa-jā-vedanā
      samphassa-jā-vedanā paccayā taṇhā
      taṇhā paccayā upādāna
      upādāna paccayā bhava
      bhava paccayā jāti
      jāti paccayā jarāmaraṇaṁ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā sambhavanti

      Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hotī”ti
      —————

      ti imasmiṁ asati idaṁ na hoti, imassa nirodhā idaṁ nirujjhati, yadidaṁ—

      avijjā nirodhā abhisaṅkhāranirodho
      abhisaṅkhāra nirodhā kamma viññāṇa nirodho
      kamma viññāṇa nirodhā nāmarūpa nirodho
      nāmarūpa nirodhā saḷāyatana nirodho
      saḷāyatana nirodhā samphassa nirodho
      samphassa nirodhā samphassa-jā-vedanā nirodho
      samphassa-jā-vedanā nirodhā taṇhā nirodho
      taṇhā nirodhā upādāna nirodho
      upādāna nirodhā bhava nirodho
      bhava nirodhā jāti nirodho
      jāti nirodhā jarāmaraṇaṁ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā nirujjhanti

      Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa nirodho hotī”ti.

      Best,
      Lang

    • #36207
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yes. That is the full niddesa version.
      – Thank you for pointing that out, Lang!

      It is also important to note that the Akusala-mula PS process starts when the mind attaches to an arammana. That is discussed in detail in the post:
      Difference Between Tanhā and Upādāna

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