[Lal]

Yes. The fear of anything in this world will go away when one attains the Arahanthood.
– The greatest fear is fear of death. An Arahant does not even have that; it is relief to be separated from the suffering and fear-filled world.

A less deep aspect to look into is why one has to deal with enemies, animals, etc.
– We all have done enough kamma to “attract enemies, and other fears”.
– The way to avoid those is to make sure to NOT PROVIDE THE CONDITIONS for such problems to appear.
– I will provide a simple example. If one keeps the house (even the sink area in the kitchen) dirty that will attract insects. Keeping everything clean will avoid such issues.
– Cultivation of Metta Bhavana could be a solution to the “enemy issue”. If the situation is severe, moving away from such persons may need to be considered.

One analogy I often cite is the following. If one goes to a bad neighborhood at night, that is a perfect example of “setting the conditions” for bad things to happen.
– In other words, we all have enough “root causes” for bad things to happen (via kamma done in previous lives). We just need to be mindful NOT TO provide CONDITIONS for them to bear fruit.

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Jittananto

[Lal]

Yash asked: ” So will he/she get “turned on” while watching such scenes but not crave to get that “turned on” feeling? Or will he/she get permanently rid of such feeling and cravings?”

An Anagami would not be “turned on”. No sexual feelings will arise.
– Those are mind-made feelings (samphassa-ja-vedana).

You can read up on that in the following posts:
“Search Results for: samphassa vedana“

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Yash RS

[Lal]

The verse fragment, “. ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṁ” is a key element in both Satipaṭṭhāna and Ānāpānasati Bhavanā.

The four sections in the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhavanā are:
“..kāye kāyānupassi viharati ātāpī sampajānō, satimā vineyya lōke abhijjhā dōmanassam. Vedanāsu vedanānupassi viharati ātāpī sampajānō, satimā vineyya lōke abhijjhā dōmanassam. Citte cittänupassī viharati ātāpī sampajānō, satimā vineyya lōke abhijjhā dōmanassam. Dhammesu dhammānupassi viharati ātāpī sampajānō, satimā vineyya lōke abhijjhā dōmanassam”

I have discussed that in “Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta – Structure”

Feel free to ask questions.

P.S. Yes. Pariññātā means to “fully understand”. Basically, once one is being mindful AT ALL TIMES and keeps one’s sense faculties under control, abhijja and domanassa will be SUPPRESSED and one gets to samadhi. With that samadhi, at the fourth stage, one can comprehend the true nature of this world (in Dhammanupassana) and thus can permanently REMOVE abhijja/domanassa.

[Lal]

Comment 1: Introduction

First a reminder. These comments assume that one has SEEN (with wisdom) the anicca, dukkha, anatta nature of this world. That is the same as understanding the Four Noble Truths and Paticca Samuppada.

1. It is a good idea to understand the meaning of “raga“. It means one gives preference to remaining in the rebirth process. If one has understood the dangers of remaining in the rebirth process, one would START LOSING that preference and turn the mind toward attaining Nibbana. It is a gradual process. Only at the Arahant stage is one totally separated from this world.

2. One cannot even think about preferring Nibbana if one has the 10 types of miccha ditthi. One of those is not believing in the rebirth process. If that is the case, then no point in pursuing any stage of Nibbana, let alone the Anagami stage.

3. Buddha’s main assertion is that one will be subjected to suffering (in the rebirth process) as long as one craves things in this world. We can just focus on the cravings for sensual pleasures because an Anagami would only lose such cravings, i.e., kama raga. Rupa raga and arupa raga are removed at the Arahant stage.

4. When one has “kama raga” one gives preference to be reborn in kama loka (not in the apayas, of course, but in human or Deva realms.) One will be born in the apayas if one commits highly immoral deeds. One will be reborn in human or Deva realms if one has not accumulated apayagami kamma AND if one has not given up the desire for sensual pleasures, i.e., if one has kama raga.  One has “kama raga” if one places a high value in sensory pleasures.

5. One can commit highly immoral deeds (apayagami deeds) ifkama raga is intense.  That apayagami level of kama raga PERMANENTLY goes away at the Sotapanna Anugami stage. Here is something CRITICAL to understand. A Sotapanna Anugami DOES NOT need to willfully refrain from such actions. Even under highly-tempting situations, a Sotapanna Anugami will not be CAPABLE of carrying out an apayagami action.

6. That means a Sotapanna Anugami has removed “ditthi vipallasa.” That cleanses that mind in getting rid of the “worst level” of avijja anusaya, which is “ditthi anusaya.” Of course, that is fully realized at the Sotapanna stage, but that is guaranteed.

7. Now we get to the Sakadagami/Anagami stages. Here the key factor is getting rid of the lower two levels of kama raga. At the Sakadagami stage, the tendency to “own stuff” that can bring sensual pleasures goes away, but the desire to enjoy such things will still be there. This is what we are going to be focused on. 

– This is the same as saying that even though “ditthi vipallasa” about the value of “sense-pleasing things” goes away at the Sotapanna Anugami stage, one will still have the tendency to “enjoy sensual pleasures.” This means one’s mind will still have a “strong level of attraction” to sensual pleasures.
– That WRONG PERCEPTION (sanna vipallasa) goes away in two stages. First, at the Sakadagami stage, the desire to “collect things that provide sensual pleasures” like houses, cars, etc goes away (vatthukāmā removed)
– But that sanna vipallasa completely goes away only at the Anagami stage (kilesakāmā removed). That is when one would lose all desires for any sensual pleasure.
– In either case, one does not need to willfully control one’s actions. The mind would not allow it, just like in #5 above.

8. I need to explain that last part. Most of the “desires” that we have are mind-made. That is why the Buddha called vinnana a magician.

– This “mind-made vedana” is “samphassa-ja-vedana.” It is critical to understand that. In Paticca Samuppada, “phassa paccaya vedana” is just the short form. It is really “samphassa paccaya samphassa-ja-vedana.”

– The point is that all these “urges” we have are truly mind-made. When the mind “sees” the futility of any action/speech/thought, it just would not go through with it. The mind will AUTOMATICALLY stop generating “samphassa” or “contacts with greed, anger, or ignorance” at that level of understanding.

9. In other words, the mind will stop attaching to sensual pleasures when it truly comprehends the anicca nature of such actions.

– To put it another way, the mind has to realize that anything associated with sensual pleasures is of NO VALUE. Not only that, it will prevent one overcome rebirths in kama loka. As long as one is kama loka, the possibility of rebirth in the apayas is there. That is the danger.

– The same is also stated as seeing the “asubha nature” of the world (in this case, the asubha nature of things that can bring sensual pleasures). Average humans perceive “luxuries” of nice houses, cars, as “subha” or auspicious nature. But an Ariya (Noble Person) needs to see their asubha nature. As long as one can see “value” in those things, one’s mind is not freed from kama loka.

10. The above is the foundation for getting to the Anagami stage.

– If there are questions, please refer to the bullet # unless it is a general question.

[Lal]

I will first write here. As the discussion evolves, that material could be put in regular posts.

The main issue that I have been focusing on recently is clarifying some key issues for beginners. English translations of many suttas is outright wrong or do not have sufficient explanations. Since that affects MANY people, I want to spend enough time on that too.

[Lal]

Hi Jorg,

If it is too small to be seen in the forum, please email it to me: [email protected].

We can figure out a way to post it on the forum once it is finalized.

[Lal]

Hello Yash,

OK. I see that you are likely to have a basic understanding of a Sotapanna/Sotapanna Anugami. You also seem to be quite motivated.
– I think many of those who post on the forum and also write to me could be at the same stage. I use the words “likely/could be/seem to be” etc. only because no one can really know about the attainments of another (only a Buddha can know anyone’s attainment).

I had been at your stage for several years. That is why I had not really written that much about getting to higher stages. Even today, I am not an Anagami. It is quite possible that I have gotten to the Sakadagami stage.
– So, it could be beneficial to describe my experiences and how I have made progress. Also, what I am doing to get to the Anagami stage.

Let us first take a simple example of an alcoholic trying to break that habit.

1. The first thing to do is to abstain from drinking as much as possible. In the same way, one should abstain from obvious “problem activities” Indulging in sensual pleasures, not trying to control anger, etc. are obvious things. Some people attain meditation retreats and then go home and watch adult movies. That is not going to work if one really wants to attain the Anagami stage.
2. One will NEVER break that habit without understanding the “bad outcomes of being an alcoholic”. An average human is like an alcoholic. He has NOT SEEN (with wisdom) that craving mind-pleasing things WILL lead to future suffering. So, at the Sotapanna stage one has removed “Ditthi vipallasa“. Make sure to read that post on vipallasa: “Vipallāsa (Diṭṭhi, Saññā, Citta) Affect Saṅkhāra”
3. Even after getting that understanding (or clear vision) it is not EASY to remove the feelings/perceptions TO BE attached. One KNOWS getting attached is bad, but one may not be able to overcome the desire. That is the critical “sanna vipallasa.” This is why it is not easy to get rid of kama raga and become an Anagami.
4. However, even a Sotapanna Anugami‘s mind WILL NOT allow any “papa kamma” (worse types of immoral deeds that can bring rebirth in the apayas). Thus even though an alcoholic who had given up drinking MAY go back to being an alcoholic, a Sotapanna Anugami WILL NEVER go back to the level of an average human.
5. How would one know that one has attained at least the Sotapanna Anugami stage? It is a critical decision that only a given person can make for themselves. But it is easy to determine whether one has attained the Anagami stage: Watch an adult movie and see whether one does not get any sexual thoughts, as I pointed out in the discussion on “Attaining Anariya Jhana as a Sotapanna”

Now we can discuss how to start making progress (on getting rid of kama raga), assuming that one is at least a Sotapanna Anugami.
– I will think about how best to start on that. Others can comment and also ask questions about what I write. We can start by commenting on what I wrote above. Any faults with what I wrote? Anything to add?

[Lal]

Hello Yash,

You asked: “Also could you please elaborate ‘contemplate the asubha nature of “mind-pleasing things‘ in this world..”

Asubha means “not fruitful” or “not beneficial.”

That goes with the other three characteristics of nature: anicca, dukkha, and anatta.

First, can you tell me what you understand by anicca, dukkha, and anatta?

[Lal]

OK. I forgot that.

Since you are a Sotapanna, you have removed the wrong views about this world. The wrong views here are those to take this world to be of “nicca, sukha, atta” nature. But in reality, the world is of “anicca, dukkha, anatta” nature.
– You know that, but I am stating that for the benefit of the others.

So, a Sotapanna has removed diṭṭhi vipallāsa.
– One gets to the next stage (Sakadagami, Anagami) by removing saññā vipallāsa

That means even though one realizes that attaching to worldly things WILL lead to suffering, it is difficult to remove the saññā that automatically binds one’s mind to sensual pleasures.
– The most effective bhavana for that is “asubha bhavana.”

The “Rāga Sutta (AN 6.107)” succinctly explains that.
– The English translation there is not that good. For example “You should develop the perception of ugliness to give up greed,.” could be better stated as, “You should contemplate on the unfruitful nature of “mind-pleasing things” to give up kama raga“.

Thus, the suitable meditation is to contemplate the asubha nature of “mind-pleasing things” in this world..

Also, see, “Vipallāsa (Diṭṭhi, Saññā, Citta) Affect Saṅkhāra”

[Lal]

Vipassana meditation is badly interpreted these days.
– The conventional idea is that one should sit in formal meditation and do “breath mediation” first and then vipassana. But the emphasis is on “breath mediation”. At least the practitioners get stuck in breath meditation since that does lead to some kind of samadhi and even anariya jhana.

Furthermore, the type of vipassana being taught is incorrect too, most of the time.

In order to REMOVE defilements, one MUST first understand the unfruitful and dangerous nature of this world.
– That is the core teaching of the Buddha embedded in the Four Noble Truths, Tilakkhana, and Paticca Samuppada.
– It is not possible to explain that in a forum post. I recommend reading the following section: “Paṭicca Samuppāda, Tilakkhana, Four Noble Truths”

This is also what I just tried to explain in the other thread that you started sometime back:
“Attaining Anariya Jhana as a Sotapanna”

[Lal]

It could be a good idea to read the English translation of the whole sutta at Sutta Central. “Upakkilesa Sutta (MN 138)“. Even though the translation is not that good, one can get the background for the verses by the Buddha that Christian quoted. That quote comes at the very end of the sutta.
– In fact, the initial part of the sutta is not directly relevant for our discussion here.
– Start reading about 1/3 way into the sutta with the following “Then Anuruddha, Nandiya, and Kimbila came out to greet the Buddha…”

Here is a brief summary;
Some time into the conversation with Anuruddha, Nandiya, and Kimbila, the Buddha asks:
“Good, good, Anuruddha and friends!
But as you live diligently like this, have you achieved any superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones, a meditation at ease? ”

This is better stated as “.. as you live diligently like this, have you achieved any jhana worthy of the noble ones (i.e., Ariya jhana)?

Ven. Anuruddha replies that they have attained jhana, but those are anariya jhana (i.e., they are unable to REMOVE kama raga, etc)

Then the Buddha tells them that while he was a Bodhisatta, he faced the same problem. Then he explains why.
For example, the following verses:
But before long my light and vision of forms vanished.
So kho pana me obhāso nacirasseva antaradhāyati dassanañca rūpānaṁ.

It occurred to me:
Tassa mayhaṁ, anuruddhā, etadahosi:

‘What’s the cause, what’s the reason why my light and vision of forms vanish?’
‘ko nu kho hetu ko paccayo yena me obhāso antaradhāyati dassanañca rūpānan’ti?
It occurred to me:
Tassa mayhaṁ, anuruddhā, etadahosi:

‘Doubt arose in me, and because of that my immersion fell away.
‘vicikicchā kho me udapādi, vicikicchādhikaraṇañca pana me samādhi cavi.

When immersion falls away, the light and vision of forms vanish.
Samādhimhi cute obhāso antaradhāyati dassanañca rūpānaṁ.

I’ll make sure that doubt will not arise in me again.’
Sohaṁ tathā karissāmi yathā me puna na vicikicchā uppajjissatī’ti.

***

Then the Buddha describes other reasons why the Bodhisatta could not get rid of those other types of defilements.

Then in the end he explains how he was finally able to REMOVE those defilements (not just suppress them). Those are the verses that Christian quoted.
Here is that verse:
“So kho ahaṁ, anuruddhā, savitakkampi savicāraṁ samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, avitakkampi vicāramattaṁ samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, avitakkampi avicāraṁ samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, sappītikampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, nippītikampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, sātasahagatampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, upekkhāsahagatampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ. ”
– He got to the first jhana by cultivating savitakka/savicara.
– Second, third, fourth, and fifth jhana via “avitakkampi vicāramattaṁ samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ“, ” avitakkampi avicāraṁ samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ“, “sappītikampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ“, “nippītikampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, sātasahagatampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ” and “upekkhāsahagatampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ”
– Note that here the second jhana is divided into two. In most suttas, the second and third jhana in the above description are combined as the second jhana.

So, the point is that many people are able to attain jhana just by doing breath meditation. Some, like Ven. Anuruddha, who may have been trying to follow the instructions of the Buddha but had not yet comprehended Tilakkhana (i.e., the Four Noble Truths correctly) may get into anariya jhana.
– To correctly cultivate savitakka/savicara, one MUST have comprehended Tilakkhana.
– As you see, the “meat” is in that verse quoted by Christian. That needs to be explained in detail.

You can see how those correspond to the four jhanas in the post, “Jhānic Experience in Detail – Sāmañ­ña­phala Sutta (DN 2)”
– For example, #4 of that post describes getting into the second jhana as “removal of vitakka/vicāra”. In the above verse that is done via two steps (i.e., second jhana is divided into two jhana).

An introduction is at, “Samādhi, Jhāna, Magga Phala – Introduction“

[Lal]

The following post is from Christian:

MN 128

Now let me develop immersion in three ways.’
Handa dānāhaṁ tividhena samādhiṁ bhāvemī’ti.

I developed immersion while placing the mind and keeping it connected; without placing the mind, but just keeping it connected; without placing the mind or keeping it connected; with rapture; without rapture; with pleasure; with equanimity.
So kho ahaṁ, anuruddhā, savitakkampi savicāraṁ samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, avitakkampi vicāramattaṁ samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, avitakkampi avicāraṁ samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, sappītikampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, nippītikampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, sātasahagatampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ, upekkhāsahagatampi samādhiṁ bhāvesiṁ.

Can we get an explanation of “keeping it connected, without placing the mind…” etc?

[Lal]

Removal of kama raga is a REQUIREMENT for the Anagami stage.
– But the removal of kama raga is NOT SUFFICIENT to attain Ariya jhana or even anariya jhana. There could be Anagamis without the ability to get into any jhana.

Getting to jhana is something that requires a focused effort.
– Of course, some people who had cultivated jhana in the recent past lives can get into jhana without much effort. But those would be anariya jhana.

The easiest way to verify whether one has even the first Ariya jhana is to watch an adult movie and see whether one does not get any sexual thoughts (an X-rated movie would be a better confirmation).

[Lal]

If you had attained anariya jhana BEFORE becoming a Sotapanna, then it would be EASIER to convert that to an Ariya jhana.

But I don’t think it will AUTOMATICALLY turn into an Ariya jhana due to the following reasons.

1. Kama raga is only temporarily SUPPRESSED in the first anariya jhana. Thus, even though one with that WILL BE born in a lower Brahma realm upon death, that Brahma WILL come back to the human realm and could be born in an apaya in future lives. That is because kama raga anusaya remains intact in an anariya jhana.

2. One gets to the FIRST Ariya jhana by REMOVING kama raga, i.e.,kama raga anusaya is not there even in the FIRST Ariya jhana.
– Thus, if one gets to the First Ariya jhana one is essentially an Anagami.

[Lal]

Hello,

It means someone who attains “Ariyakanta sīla” (i.e., a Noble Person) has moral conduct (sīla) that is unbreakable, without gaps (cracks), spotless (without blemishes), self-consistent, liberating, providing penetrating wisdom, not leading astray, and leading to samādhi.

[Author]

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