Sakadagami Stage

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    • #37311
      Yash RS
      Participant

      Please elaborate how one can know whether he has attained the sakadagami Stage?

    • #37313
      SengKiat
      Keymaster

      Greetings! Yash RS,

      According to the book “Guide to the Study of Theravada Buddhism Book 4” on the Reviewing Thought Process (Paccavekkhana Vīthi) (page 160 to 161) is as pasted below with my comment beneath it.

      Reviewing Thought Process (Paccavekkhana Vīthi):

      Once jhāna or the Path consciousness (Magga) has been attained it requires the yogi to look back on his attainment for clear confirmation. He should review the jhāna factors and for each jhāna factor a thought process occurs with five sense sphere (kāma) javana cittas.

      Five jhāna factors are:
      (1) Vitakka (Initial Application)
      (2) Vicāra (Sustained Application)
      (3) Pīti (Joy)
      (4) Sukha (Happiness)
      (5) ekagattā (One Pointedness)

      Ex – B Bc Bu Mn J J J J J B
      Notes:
      B – Bhavaṅga
      Bc – Bhavaṅga calana
      Bu – Bhavaṅga uppaccheda
      Mn – Manodvārāvajjana
      J – Jhāna

      In the case of Magga Vīthi there will be five reviewing thought processes after the attainment of first magga. Each Paccavekkhana Vīthi will reflect on :

      (1) Magga achieved
      (2) Fruition consciousness
      (3) Nibbāna
      (4) Eradicated Defilements (Kilesa)
      (5) Balance Defilements to be eradicated.

      There will be five Paccavekkhana Vīthi after Sotāpatti, Sakadāgāmi and Anāgāmi magga. With regard to Arahantta Magga there will be only four Paccavekkhana Vīthi without the last one (Number Five) mentioned above.

      My comment: It would seem that the yogi should be well verse in jhāna to be able to review thought process. So, even though, the yogi has attained the Sotāpatti, Sakadāgāmi, Anāgāmi and Arahatta magga (path), the yogi would not be able to review the five reviewing thought processes listed above unless the yogi is well verse in jhāna. This is only my opinion, unless those with path moment is able to state otherwise.

      With mettā, Seng Kiat

    • #37315
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Thanks, Seng Kiat.

      I disagree with that book for the following reasons.

      1. Any stage of magga phala DOES NOT require jhana. Conversely, having jhana DOES NOT mean one has magga phala.

      2. We can go to technical details, but a few simple examples can make the case.
      – Those who cultivate anariya jhana DO NOT have magga phala. They will be born in a Brahma realm at death, but at the end of Brahma bhava, they will come back to the human realm and subsequently be born in the apayas, UNLESS they attain magga phala before that. In other words, attaining anariya jhana would not release one from the apayas.
      – Of course, if one has even the FIRST Ariya jhana, then one is already an Anagami. I have explained that in a recent discussion and other posts. Basically, kama raga anusaya will be REMOVED (not just Suppressed) when one gets into the first Ariya jhana.
      – Devadatta had attained not only jhana but also supernormal powers. He obviously did not have any magga phala, because he ended up in an apaya.

      P.S. The following is not directly relevant, but I keep forgetting to discuss it.
      There could be Sotapanna/Sotapanna Anugami who have anariya jhana.
      – They will be born in a Brahma realm at death and WILL NOT come back to the human realm. They will attain higher magga phala there.

    • #37318
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Regarding Yash’s question: “.. how one can know whether he has attained the sakadagami Stage?”

      One will know that when one has lost the desire to POSSESS (own) material things that provide sensual pleasures. For example, houses, cars, paintings, …

      But a Sakadagami has not yet REMOVED the tendency to enjoy such things.
      – A Sakadagami needs to keep contemplating the “anicca nature” of such sensual pleasures.
      – One WILL know when one gets there. One will not have the same tendencies to accumulate worldly possessions.

      We discussed the key ideas in the thread on your question on the Anagami stage. You may want to re-read that. Until one starts giving up the craving for sensual pleasures, one is away from both Sakadagami and Anagami stages.

    • #47210
      Yash RS
      Participant

      Namo Buddhaya,

      I can’t remember the last time I had a craving for any material possession( it has been more than a year), I even tried forcefully to bring this  type of craving but I still didn’t crave of any possession. I have also noticed that my sensual cravings have also reduced except for the sexual ones( it too has reduced but not like other sense cravings, for example my taste craving has reduced drastically, almost zero). In regard to the sexual craving, I think my case is same as The Person ( i don’t remember the name) at the time of Buddha who was a Sakadagami but still couldn’t give up drinking alcohol. So should I be assured that I may have attained the Sakadagami stage, I feel it though??

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      Gad
    • #47212
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yes. Confirming the Sakadagami stage is tricky. 

      • In the suttas, the Buddha only says, kama raga is attenuated; there is no “measure.” 
      • The following can be used as guidance. A Sakadagami will not be reborn in the human realm; they are reborn in a Deva realm. Therefore, a Sakadagami would have “Deva gati” and not “manussa gati.” It has not been clarified in the suttas, but we can probably deduce that Devas do not engage in sexual activities like humans: they don’t give birth to children (their births are opapatika.) But they have male and female Devas. May be they get enough “mental pleasure” by associating with the opposite sex. 
      • However, the Anagami stage is much more clear-cut. One will not have any desire for sex. An Anagami will be reborn only in Brahma realms, where two sexes do not exist. 

      The best way to get to either stage is to cultivate “asubha sanna.” Our craving for sensual pleasures is based on the “distorted sanna” that we have. In brief, “subha sanna,” or the idea that external objects/people have mind-pleasing properties, is false. But it may take time to grasp those concepts fully.

      • Cultivating “asubha sanna” means contemplating the material discussed in the recent posts on “distorted sanna” and fully understanding those concepts. That is part of the actual “vipassana mediation” (or Satipatthana.):  “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā).”
      • Of course, those concepts also help with getting to the Sotapanna stage.
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      • #47214
        Gad
        Participant

        Mr. Lal, can the absence of sexuality really be a sign of the anagami stage? There are also people born asexual. They feel no sexual attraction to anyone. Such a person could be very immoral, depending on their gati.

        See this link asexuality

        In this 2 minute video an asexual man explains what it’s like to be one.

        I am asexual 

         

        An anagami can never engage in immoral action. The absence of anger regardless of the situation and our neutrality in the face of ashta loka dhammas (8 worldly conditions) are the best indicators, right??

    • #47213
      Yash RS
      Participant

      Thanks 🙏,

      This is what I have understood recently 

      Wanting (stress)—leads to Seeking (stress)—–and after Acquiring ——Pleasure (relief from vexation/stress)—-which again leads to——Wanting ( Stress)

      because of Ignorance as the mind perceives that Pleasure Is Happiness, but it is not. Every Sentient Being is trapped in the above cycle, there is only stress in this cycle, No Happiness.

      So the more one craves for Pleasure ( because of Moha/Avijja) the more one is craving for Stress without knowing it! As pleasure only arises by reducing stress( temporarily)

      So, since the mind is craving for Stress, it Will be born in the corresponding realm that would impart that type of stress!

      Because in Reality the mind is not craving for Happiness but for Stress, which is evident from the cycle. So therefore if one truly Wants Happiness one Must truly “crave” for it, and that is experienced when No Attachment remains in the mind, The Neutral Mind is the truly Satisfied Mind, It is the only Happiness which is Unconditional.

      Even though I have understood it at a good level, still it has not sunk in the mind to the point of an Anagami or an Arahant. I guess because the mind has not truly Sensed the relief from Abstaining from Craving for Sensuality.  But I will keep on working on it 🙏

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      Gad
    • #47215
      Gad
      Participant

      Yash don’t put too much pressure on you. At the time of Lord Buddha, there were two brothers Purana and Isadatta who were sakadagamin. Purana was single and abstained from all sexual activity. Isadatta was still married and engaged in sex.

      Lord Buddha said that both of them were reborn in a deva realm when they died. Sexual attraction depends on each person’s gati at these stages (puthujunas, sotāpanna and sakadagamin). Sooner or later you will lose this desire whether you like it or not. It is inevitable (anatta) that you become anagami.

      From the moment you became sotāpanna the process began. The samyojana kāma ragā and dosa will break on their own. Of course if you want to progress faster, the practice of jhanas and the anagarika lifestyle are excellent ways.

      See Migasālāsutta

       

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    • #47216
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Gad asked: “Can the absence of sexuality really be a sign of the anagami stage?”

      • No. There are people born asexual, and some even without sexual organs. However, they are DEFINITELY not Anagamis because Anagamis cannot be reborn in the human realm. They are born that way due to kamma vipaka. For example, those who commit sex crimes (e.g., rape) and those who mutilate the sexual organs of others are likely to be reborn that way.
      • Those people, when the kammic energy is “exhausted,” will be reborn with normal sexual functions. They have kama raga anusaya/samyojana intact all that time.
      • On the other hand, an Anagami has removed kama raga anusaya/samyojana from the mind. They have “seen” (with wisdom or panna) the drawbacks and dangers of kama raga and have cultivated Satipatthana to remove it.

      Yash wrote: “Wanting (stress)—leads to Seeking (stress)—–and after Acquiring ——Pleasure (relief from vexation/stress)—-which again leads to——Wanting ( Stress).”

      • That is quite true. That is a unique feature of any “sensual pleasure,” not only sex but the craving for food, music, etc. 
      • The desire is temporarily satisfied when engaging in sex, eating, etc., but the urge ALWAYS comes back and will “keep bothering” until one again engages in whatever that activity was. 
      • All of us have been doing that in this beginningless rebirth process: Chasing a “mirage.”
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