Sakadagami Stage

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    • #37311
      Yash RS
      Participant

      Please elaborate how one can know whether he has attained the sakadagami Stage?

    • #37313
      SengKiat
      Moderator

      Greetings! Yash RS,

      According to the book “Guide to the Study of Theravada Buddhism Book 4” on the Reviewing Thought Process (Paccavekkhana Vīthi) (page 160 to 161) is as pasted below with my comment beneath it.

      Reviewing Thought Process (Paccavekkhana Vīthi):

      Once jhāna or the Path consciousness (Magga) has been attained it requires the yogi to look back on his attainment for clear confirmation. He should review the jhāna factors and for each jhāna factor a thought process occurs with five sense sphere (kāma) javana cittas.

      Five jhāna factors are:
      (1) Vitakka (Initial Application)
      (2) Vicāra (Sustained Application)
      (3) Pīti (Joy)
      (4) Sukha (Happiness)
      (5) ekagattā (One Pointedness)

      Ex – B Bc Bu Mn J J J J J B
      Notes:
      B – Bhavaṅga
      Bc – Bhavaṅga calana
      Bu – Bhavaṅga uppaccheda
      Mn – Manodvārāvajjana
      J – Jhāna

      In the case of Magga Vīthi there will be five reviewing thought processes after the attainment of first magga. Each Paccavekkhana Vīthi will reflect on :

      (1) Magga achieved
      (2) Fruition consciousness
      (3) Nibbāna
      (4) Eradicated Defilements (Kilesa)
      (5) Balance Defilements to be eradicated.

      There will be five Paccavekkhana Vīthi after Sotāpatti, Sakadāgāmi and Anāgāmi magga. With regard to Arahantta Magga there will be only four Paccavekkhana Vīthi without the last one (Number Five) mentioned above.

      My comment: It would seem that the yogi should be well verse in jhāna to be able to review thought process. So, even though, the yogi has attained the Sotāpatti, Sakadāgāmi, Anāgāmi and Arahatta magga (path), the yogi would not be able to review the five reviewing thought processes listed above unless the yogi is well verse in jhāna. This is only my opinion, unless those with path moment is able to state otherwise.

      With mettā, Seng Kiat

    • #37315
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Thanks, Seng Kiat.

      I disagree with that book for the following reasons.

      1. Any stage of magga phala DOES NOT require jhana. Conversely, having jhana DOES NOT mean one has magga phala.

      2. We can go to technical details, but a few simple examples can make the case.
      – Those who cultivate anariya jhana DO NOT have magga phala. They will be born in a Brahma realm at death, but at the end of Brahma bhava, they will come back to the human realm and subsequently be born in the apayas, UNLESS they attain magga phala before that. In other words, attaining anariya jhana would not release one from the apayas.
      – Of course, if one has even the FIRST Ariya jhana, then one is already an Anagami. I have explained that in a recent discussion and other posts. Basically, kama raga anusaya will be REMOVED (not just Suppressed) when one gets into the first Ariya jhana.
      – Devadatta had attained not only jhana but also supernormal powers. He obviously did not have any magga phala, because he ended up in an apaya.

      P.S. The following is not directly relevant, but I keep forgetting to discuss it.
      There could be Sotapanna/Sotapanna Anugami who have anariya jhana.
      – They will be born in a Brahma realm at death and WILL NOT come back to the human realm. They will attain higher magga phala there.

    • #37318
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Regarding Yash’s question: “.. how one can know whether he has attained the sakadagami Stage?”

      One will know that when one has lost the desire to POSSESS (own) material things that provide sensual pleasures. For example, houses, cars, paintings, …

      But a Sakadagami has not yet REMOVED the tendency to enjoy such things.
      – A Sakadagami needs to keep contemplating the “anicca nature” of such sensual pleasures.
      – One WILL know when one gets there. One will not have the same tendencies to accumulate worldly possessions.

      We discussed the key ideas in the thread on your question on the Anagami stage. You may want to re-read that. Until one starts giving up the craving for sensual pleasures, one is away from both Sakadagami and Anagami stages.

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