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Yes. I was trying to revise that post yesterday, but still trying to find the source of the quote.
– It is important to settle this, so I will take a bit more time, especially to find the source of that quote.
– Waharaka Thero discussed it in a discourse. It would have been easy to find it if he was alive.1. There are three stages/lakkhana of a sankhata: Uppāda (arising), ṭhiti (existence), vaya (destruction).
– During existence a sankhata is subjected to “unexpected change” or “aññathā“.
– This is in the “Saṅkhatalakkhaṇa Sutta (AN 3.47).”2. There are three types of dukkha (dukkhatā): Dukkhadukkhatā, saṅkhāradukkhatā, vipariṇāmadukkhatā.
– See, “Dukkhatā Sutta (SN 45.165)”3. The three types of dukkhatā correspond to the three lakkhana of a sankhata.
– A sankhata arises due to Paticca Samuppāda starting with “avijjā paccayā sankhāra.” Thus the “uppāda lakkhana” of a sankhata is associated with saṅkhāradukkhatā.
– Any sankhata will eventually be destroyed and has the “vaya lakkhana.” That is the vipariṇāmadukkhatā.
– In between the birth and death, a sankhata exists (tithi). However, it undergoes unexpected change (aññathā), and that gives rise to Dukkhadukkhatā. That is expressed by, “titthassa sankata lakkhanan, dukkha dukkhata”.There are three stages of a sankhata: Uppāda (arising), ṭhiti (existence), vaya (destruction).
– During existence a sankhata is subjected to “unexpected change” or “aññathā“.This is in the “Saṅkhatalakkhaṇa Sutta (AN 3.47).”
You are correct, Zapper.
– I copied and pasted meaning to change to five, but apparently forgot!
– Just revised my post. Thanks.Yes, Tobias.
But all those places were near the Bōdhi tree, at the same site.
– The description there says the Buddha left that site after some time. Does not specify the total time spent in the vicinity of the Bōdhi tree.I just now revised the post, “What is Kamma? – Is Everything Determined by Kamma?”
Thanks to LayDhammaFollower and Tobias for their efforts.
LayDhammaFollower wrote: “No, lal. That old post is not accessible.”
– Good. Thanks for letting me know. I have removed the reference to it in the post, “Difference Between Dhammā and Saṅkhāra.”
– No need to worry about it anymore.P.S. I revised the other post too: “What is Kamma? – Is Everything Determined by Kamma?”
1. There was an old post on the website, “Root Cause of Anicca – Five Stages of a Saṅkhata.”
– I think I removed it at some point.However, I just found a reference to it in: “Difference Between Dhammā and Saṅkhāra”
– See #8 there. I need to revise that post to remove this reference.
– But I wanted to check with LayDhammaFollower to see whether the post “Root Cause of Anicca – Five Stages of a Saṅkhata” is still accessible on the website. Please let me know.2. Again, I may be responsible for the idea of five dhammatā.
I just saw the post, “What is Kamma? – Is Everything Determined by Kamma?”
– See #2 there, which needs revision.
– We had discussed that in the forum, but I never got to revise this post either. I will do that soon.
– You can find that discussion in, “Five Niyamas-Does Every Unfortunate Event Always Have Kamma As A Root Cause?”
– See the last two entries, where we decided that Tipitaka refers to only one dhammatā.
To quote:
“You are right, Tobias. There is only one dhammatā, which is dhammaniyāmatā. The sutta you referenced explains that.It seems that the five “five dhammatā” was made up by someone in a commentary. It could be Visuddhimagga, but I am not sure.
– If a key principle is not referenced in the Tipitaka, it is safe to assume that it was made up by someone at a later time.”My apologies for these errors not being corrected.
Yes. As I remember, the Buddha spent seven weeks in the vicinity of the Bodhi tree before leaving to deliver the first discourse to the five ascetics.
The following account seems to describe in detail the first 5 weeks (in Pali and English.) May be we can find a better reference.
In the above, on May 15, 2021 at 1:13 pm Tobias asked: “Understood, what means ekavokārabhavo, catuvokārabhavo, pañcavokārabhavo?”
I was not able to provide a satisfactory answer at that time. Today I posted the following in a different thread that provides a better answer.
Uppatti bhava is where a living being can be reborn.
– In Paṭiccasamuppādavibhaṅga
“16.1 Tattha katamo upapattibhavo? Kāmabhavo, rūpabhavo, arūpabhavo, saññābhavo, asaññābhavo, nevasaññānāsaññābhavo, ekavokārabhavo, catuvokārabhavo, pañcavokārabhavo”
– They can be divided into various groups.1. One way to categorize is the following;
– Realms in kama loka (four apayas, human realm, and six Deva realms) belong to “kamma bhava.”
– The 16 rupavacara Brahma realms belong to “rupa bhava.”
– The four arupavacara Brahma realms belong to “arupa bhava”.2. Another way is to divide uppatti bhava into two categories: “saññā bhava” (with perception or saññā) and “asaññā bhava” (without perception or saññā.)
– Only the rupavacara asaññā realm belongs to the “asaññā bhava.”
– Living beings in all other realms have saññā. They all belong to the “saññā bhava”.3. The third way of categorization is based on the number of khandhas. “Vokāra” is another name for “khandha.”
– Ekavokārabhava means “one khandha.” That is the rupavacara asaññā realm. It has only the rupakkhandha.
– Catuvokārabhava (with four khandhas) includes the realms in the arupavacara Brahma realms, EXCEPT for the nevasaññānāsaññāyatana realm. Those three realms have the four “nama khandhas” but no rupakkhandha (the only rupa in those realms is the hadaya vatthu of those Brahmas.)
– Pañcavokārabhava (with four khandhas) includes all other realms EXCEPT for the nevasaññānāsaññāyatana realm. Those include ALL realms in the kama loka and also those in the rupa loka, except for the rupavacara asaññā realm.
– The nevasaññānāsaññāyatana realm has only the “saññākkhandha” (saññā khandha) but that also exists only intermittently. Nevasaññānāsaññā means “saññā” disappears and comes back in a cyclic manner.Uppatti bhava is where a living being can be reborn.
– They can be divided into various groups.1. One way to categorize is the following;
– Realms in kama loka (four apayas, human realm, and six Deva realms) belong to “kamma bhava.”
– The 16 rupavacara Brahma realms belong to “rupa bhava.”
– The four arupavacara Brahma realms belong to “arupa bhava”.2. Another way is to divide uppatti bhava into two categories: “saññā bhava” (with perception or saññā) and “asaññā bhava” (without perception or saññā.)
– Only the rupavacara asaññā realm belongs to the “asaññā bhava.”
– Living beings in all other realms have saññā. They all belong to the “saññā bhava”.3. The third way of categorization is based on the number of khandhas. “Vokāra” is another name for “khandha.”
– Ekavokārabhava means “one khandha.” That is the rupavacara asaññā realm. It has only the rupakkhandha.
– Catuvokārabhava (with four khandhas) includes the realms in the arupavacara Brahma realms, EXCEPT for the nevasaññānāsaññāyatana realm. Those three realms have the four “nama khandhas” but no rupakkhandha (the only rupa in those realms is the hadaya vatthu of those Brahmas.)
– Pañcavokārabhava (with five khandhas) includes all other realms EXCEPT for the nevasaññānāsaññāyatana realm. Those include ALL realms in the kama loka and also those in the rupa loka, except for the rupavacara asaññā realm.
– The nevasaññānāsaññāyatana realm has only the “saññākkhandha” (saññā khandha) but that also exists only intermittently. Nevasaññānāsaññā means “saññā” disappears and comes back in a cyclic manner.By the way: Please ask an open question, without directing it to me. Anyone can reply if they know the answer to a question or just to make a comment that could be helpful.
1. A “vithi” means a “series.”
– A single citta NEVER arises in mind.
– A pancadvara citta vithi arises due to a thought object that comes via one of the five physical senses: eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and body. It has 17 cittas.
– A manodvara citta vithi arises in the mind. It can have a variable number of cittas, but the minimum is about 12.2. Any single citta goes through that 9-stage process. Yes. It is amazing.
– Of course, only the mind of a Buddha can “see” such fast processes.
– Each person can accept (or reject) such analysis based on the level of faith.
– I accept it not out of blind faith, but I can see that Buddha’s analysis is self-consistent and can explain many phenomena in great detail. To get to that stage, one must spend time and understand Abhidhamma. I have recommended a couple of books in the post, “Abhidhamma – Introduction.”P.S. Of course, it is not necessary to learn Abhidhamma. Learning Abhidhamma just makes it possible to investigate phenomena at deeper levels, and thus get a deeper understanding.
This issue of jhanas is related to that of “breath meditation.” It seems to me that questions will keep coming until both issues are tackled in a comprehensive manner.
I will start writing posts on jhanas as well in a comprehensive manner referring to the Tipitaka, just like what I am doing with the Anapanasati. See the first post “Ānāpānasati – Overview”
– Hopefully, I will finish the first such post on jhana within the next two weeks.P.S. Any questions/comments on either of those issues need to be discussed at “Posts on ‘Elephants in the Room’“
