- This topic has 3 replies, 2 voices, and was last updated 11 months, 3 weeks ago by Lal.
June 15, 2022 at 7:24 am #38072LayDhammaFollowerParticipant
I was reading this post. When I started wondering what was meant by “sensual pleasures” in this post.
The post in question is aimed at the beginner.
My question for that post is
Can we say that what you meant by “sensual pleasures” in that post is basically “assāda” and NOT sensual pleasures coming through “KAMMĀ VIPAKĀ” which results in pleasent/sukhā “vipakā viññana”.
My understanding (↓).
latter two does not “directly” leads to suffering but leads to suffering indirectly.
So, doing sankhāra under some viññana for deriving pleasure from six arammana by making their contact with six senses leads to further future suffering. This wanting to keep “pleasurable” arammana close to us is what “upādāna” is.
So, such habit of deriving pleasure from six types of arammana has led to suffering in present through “upādāna paccayā Bhavā” step.
Also, we have vipareetha saññā about such arammana because of not realising nature of all saṅkhata.
This vipareetha saññā (saṅkhata are Niccā, sukkhā, attā) leads to assāda.
So, with cessation of Vipareetha saññā about nature of all saṅkhata especially those found in kama lōka, one would not grow any viññana with assāda for those objects. This stage would be anāgāmi stage.
Also, another question which is not specifically aimed at post in question;
Can I assume that throught out the puredhamma site whenever “sensual pleasures” are mentioned it usually means assāda. Other two types of pleasures are jhana pleasure and niramisa sukkhā.
June 15, 2022 at 7:56 am #38074LalKeymaster
The easiest ways to think about the term “sensual pleasures” (or kama raga) are as follows.
1. One experiences sensual pleasures only in the realms belonging to Kama loka. The four apayas do not have significant sensual pleasures. It is only in the human and Deva realms that have sensual pleasures.
– No sensual pleasures in the 4 rupavacara or 16 arupavacara Brahma realms.
2. Sensual pleasures are based on the “direct” sensory contact with the tongue, nose, and body.
– However, eyes and ears can be used (indirectly) too. For example, in watching an adult movie the “enjoyment” is based on watching activities with physical contact.
– Rupavacara Brahmas have eyes and ears. But they don’t use them for sensual pleasures. As we have discussed, births in Brahma realms can be possible only for those who have (at least temporarily) overcome sensual pleasures (kama raga). See, “Rebirths Take Place According to Abhisaṅkhāra“
June 15, 2022 at 8:25 am #38076LayDhammaFollowerParticipant
I hope I don’t annoy you, lal.
But, can you give one word answer to whether my understanding in first post in this thread is correct or no.
To your reply above:
Okay so more accurate word for kama loka is obviously kama Raga. This are the kind of subtlety that I need to devlope for more accurate insight. I missed the word “sensual” it obviously means through senses.
So we can say that assāda is more broad term. So, assāda encompasses jhanic pleasure as well.
Also, Rupavacara Brahmas and other higher brahmas would still have lot of pleasure which would come from their existence in higher state itself, right?
Sensual pleasures would also stem from sommansa vedana right?
June 15, 2022 at 8:47 am #38078LalKeymaster
Yes. You are right. I did not address it fully. I was only focusing on “kāma assāda” in my comment above.
You asked: “So we can say that assāda is more broad term. So, assāda encompasses jhanic pleasure as well.”
– Yes. Kāma assāda are only part of assāda. Brahmas have assāda for jhanic pleasures.
You asked:‘Also, Rupavacara Brahmas and other higher brahmas would still have lot of pleasure which would come from their existence in higher state itself, right?”
– Yes. Any living being has assāda for different types of sensory experiences. Arupavacara Brahmas (in the highest 4 realms) have assāda for arupavacara samapatti (nowadays they are called higher jhana, but that is not correct. I will address that in the new post coming up).
I have revised the post, “Sensual Pleasures – The Hidden Suffering“.
– I did that in a hurry because I have to leave now for a couple of hours. Let me know if there are other issues to be addressed in it.
P.S. Also see, “Rebirths Take Place According to Abhisaṅkhāra“
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