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Those Pali words in question are: “vivicceva kāmehi” and “vivicca akusalehi dhammehi”.
In the English translation that you quoted those are translated as: “Quite secluded from sensual pleasures” and “secluded from unskillful qualities.”
– So it does not make sense to have “quite secluded” in one and “secluded” in the other.That verse in almost all suttas on Ariya and anariya jhana.
– We could translate those words as: “separated from sensuality/sensual thoughts” and “separated from akusala/akusala thoughts.”1. In anariya jhana, one keeps the mind away from those thoughts of sensual pleasures (kama sankappa) by forcing the mind to focus on a neutral object like a kasina object/breath. They also stay from doing akusala kamma. However, kama raga anusaya is in them, and they have miccha ditthi, i.e., ditthi anusaya as well as avijja anusaya is in them.
2. In the first Ariya jhana, kama raga anusaya is absent, and also the ditthi anusaya is absent. In the fourth Ariya jhana, basically, all anusaya are absent, including the avijja anusaya.
3. So, you can see that “separated from sensual thoughts” and “separated from akusala thoughts” have VERY DIFFERENT meanings in Ariya and anariya jhana.
– It is a matter of “level of separation.”
– One can compare an anariya jhana to a coal fire that has been put out to the level that no flames can be seen. But hot coals remain and the fire can ignite again; also one can still feel the warmth.
– On the other hand, with anusaya removed, it is like a fire that has been put out by pouring water over it. The cooling down is complete and no fires can re-start.Hello Tobi,
I am glad that you found that post to be helpful. It is an old post, and I just revised it a bit.
You may find the posts at “9. Key to Ānapānasati – How to Change Habits and Character (Gati)” to have a bit more information.
– Related to those posts are posts on “gati” (habits/character): See, “The Law of Attraction, Habits, Character (Gati), and Cravings (Āsava)” and posts referred to therein.
– Please don’t hesitate to ask questions if some things are not clear.I hope you will make significant progress at the retreat.
It will not be possible to understand the concept of bhava until one understands the difference between “kamma vinnana” and “vipaka vinnana.”
– That is why I say that most translators of Tipitaka DO NOT understand Paticca Samuppada. They just translate “vinnana” as “consciousness”. That leads to a MAJOR contradiction.
– If there is anyone who has read my post “Distortion of Pāli Keywords in Paṭicca Samuppāda” and does not see the contradiction, please make a comment. It is a CRITICAL point.
– Even a child should be able to see the contradiction. May be I am not expressing it clear enough? If so, I need to re-write that post.Thank you!
Yes. It was a mistake and I just fixed it. It is in my first response to Johnny Lim’s question: “Let’s Talk About Anagami”
If you find any such issues, please make a comment with the link to the post/comment in question. Otherwise, I cannot verify or make necessary corrections.
– Thanks again for taking the time to locate the post.Yes. You are right. I did not address it fully. I was only focusing on “kāma assāda” in my comment above.
You asked: “So we can say that assāda is more broad term. So, assāda encompasses jhanic pleasure as well.”
– Yes. Kāma assāda are only part of assāda. Brahmas have assāda for jhanic pleasures.You asked:‘Also, Rupavacara Brahmas and other higher brahmas would still have lot of pleasure which would come from their existence in higher state itself, right?”
– Yes. Any living being has assāda for different types of sensory experiences. Arupavacara Brahmas (in the highest 4 realms) have assāda for arupavacara samapatti (nowadays they are called higher jhana, but that is not correct. I will address that in the new post coming up).I have revised the post, “Sensual Pleasures – The Hidden Suffering“.
– I did that in a hurry because I have to leave now for a couple of hours. Let me know if there are other issues to be addressed in it.P.S. Also see, “Rebirths Take Place According to Abhisaṅkhāra“
The easiest ways to think about the term “sensual pleasures” (or kama raga) are as follows.
1. One experiences sensual pleasures only in the realms belonging to Kama loka. The four apayas do not have significant sensual pleasures. It is only in the human and Deva realms that have sensual pleasures.
– No sensual pleasures in the 4 rupavacara or 16 arupavacara Brahma realms.2. Sensual pleasures are based on the “direct” sensory contact with the tongue, nose, and body.
– However, eyes and ears can be used (indirectly) too. For example, in watching an adult movie the “enjoyment” is based on watching activities with physical contact.
– Rupavacara Brahmas have eyes and ears. But they don’t use them for sensual pleasures. As we have discussed, births in Brahma realms can be possible only for those who have (at least temporarily) overcome sensual pleasures (kama raga). See, “Rebirths Take Place According to Abhisaṅkhāra“of course, the “red side” is correct.
– I don’t think the “green side” explains the reverse of the “red side”.
– Do you understand it? If so, describe briefly.I am saying that it is unproductive to try to analyze what Thanissaro Bhikkhu is trying to explain because he does not seem to have an understanding of Paticca Samuppada. Didn’t he start the essay with, “The topic of becoming, although it features one major paradox, contains other paradoxes as well..” in the Preface (p. 5)
– What paradoxes are there?
– Why do you keep going back to that, if he says it is a paradox?We know that future births arise due to one’s own actions based on (abhi)sankhara generation via avijja.
– That process is Paticca Samuppada (PS).How far have you progressed in understanding the first steps of PS?
– No need to rush through. But it is critically important to understand PS. You should be asking questions on sankhara, vinnana, etc. if not clear.No. It is hard.
– One must get to the fourth jhana and then practice coming out of the physical body first.
– Even that is an initial step. I know some people who can come out of the physical body. But none has iddhi powers.
– However, Devadatta had iddhi powers, lost them, and was born in an apaya. We all had iddhi powers in previous lives, many times over.1 user thanked author for this post.
1. I understand your frustration. It is not your fault that most of the current interpretations are way off.
– I also see that most translators are in your position as well. They learned these incorrect translations from their teachers.
– It would be good if those translators get to see my posts on objections to their translations in “Elephants in the Room.”
– I welcome them to make rebuttals if they think my interpretations (based on what I learned from Waharaka Thero) are incorrect. We can have discussions at the forum here or anywhere else.2. Now, let us get back to your questions.
– As I remember, you have been focused on the concept of gandhabba. That could be a wrong starting point.3. It may be a good idea to understand the key terms in Paticca Samuppada first: sankhara, vinnana, nama rupa, etc.
– See, “Understanding the Terms in Paṭicca Samuppāda“.
– The “Search” box at the top right is a good resource too.4. If you like to continue with the above questions on “bhava”, you should at least read the posts under “Viññāṇa – Two Critical Meanings“.
– that is one sub-section in the link in #3 above.
– Please let me know once you understand how “kamma vinnana” arise due to “(abhi)sankhara.” That is the “sankhara paccaya vinnana” step in Paticca Samuppada. If you have questions about that, let us discuss them first. We need to start from the first principles.P.S. I just saw your latest comment where you wrote:
“Dipohasadhamma mentioned “I am (at present) at a loss for WHAT this seed of consciousness is”.We have many “kamma bija” (seeds) in “kamma bhava” that can give rise to rebirths in a variety of existences (“uppatti bhava”). Such “kamma bija” are created by “kamma vinnana.”
– Of course, only the strongest seed is grasped (upadana).
– That is why it is critical to understand Paticca Samuppada.Before I answer the questions on bhava, I want to make sure that you understand what those translators do not understand, i.e., that there are kamma vinnana (that the Buddha stopped from arising at the Buddhahood), and vipaka vinnana (which the experienced until his passing away or Parinibbana.
– I am not sure whether you have read the relevant posts on that.I will respond to the questions later on. But I quickly scanned the attached document by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
On p. 131 of the pdf, it translates the terms in the “reverse order Paticca Samuppada” from SN 12:2. To quote: “Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance
comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the
cessation of consciousness..”We know that the Buddha’s mind became free of avijja (“the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance” per the above quote) on the night of Enlightenment.
– So, did the Buddha become unconscious at that point?
– No wonder he starts the essay with, “The topic of becoming, although it features one major paradox, contains other paradoxes as well..” in the Preface (p. 5)
– “Bhava” (in his translation “becoming”) is not a paradox if one understands Paticca Samuppada.It is not just him. The following is the translation of SN 12.2 at Sutta Central
“Vibhaṅga Sutta (SN 12.2)”
– There the translation is: “When ignorance fades away and ceases with nothing left over, choices cease. When choices cease, consciousness ceases.”My question is: Why do people take these translations seriously?
– If they cannot explain what is stated by, “Avijjāya tveva asesavirāganirodhā saṅkhāranirodho; saṅkhāranirodhā viññāṇanirodho” they obviously cannot explain many other concepts including “bhava”.Possibly, but not definitive.
– Animals do things like robots. So, their kamma generation is different. But it requires an Abhidhamma analysis involving what types of citta can be generated by animals.
– We need to worry about the types of kamma humans can do. A human is capable of doing ALL types of kamma, good and bad.
