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I have been thinking about it some more. Sometimes, it is not possible to give a simple, strict “yes” or “no” answer.
Trying to cultivate “asubha saññā” by looking at disgusting aspects of dead bodies or internal organs is — in general — not a good idea for those below or even at the Sotapanna stage.
But, for some, such a drastic approach may help get to the Anagami stage faster (if one has a firm determination) AND is not “agitated/disturbed” by such horrific pictures.
– But that is not recommended for Sotapannas living “householder lives” because that can end marriages affecting children’s and spouses’ lives. One can lose interest in sex. I am not saying that losing interest in sex is bad. It is just that one needs to be aware of the possibility of that outcome. One will know when one is ready to take such an action. That depends on one’s level of understanding of Buddha Dhamma AND one’s personal background.1 user thanked author for this post.
Yes. Lang is right. Buddha’s Asubha Bhavana is NOT about seeing rotting corpses and distasteful videos like the last one on the list.
– I had not looked at the documents/videos. Just now, I took a brief look at the video listed last. That is NOT asubha Bhavana, but is the version commonly taught by even Theravada teachers!Even though LayDhammaFollower (LDM) has requested to remove them if needed, I will leave them at least for a while so that people can see what not to follow.
The Buddha wanted us to contemplate the unfruitfulness of valuing not only our physical bodies but anything in this world.
– Asubha DOES NOT mean “disgusting” or “yucky.” That may generate patigha, as LDM pointed out.
– It means not beneficial, not fruitful, etc., and quite the opposite.Please read the following sutta carefully.
“Sivathika Sutta (AN 5.249)”– In the days of the Buddha, there was no burial or cremation for average people. Dead bodies were discarded in designated “charnel grounds.”
– But the Buddha wanted us to see not the drawbacks of disgusting scenes in a charnel ground but the drawbacks of disgusting conduct by way of body, speech, and mind.– The Buddha also taught us to contemplate the 32 parts of the body to see that they are also made of the same four great elements as plants and rocks.
– I have mentioned that briefly in #5 of “Anussati and Anupassanā – Being Mindful and Removing Defilements“. I may have addressed it in another post, but I don’t remember.The CRITICAL point that I have been trying to convey is that translating “Ānāpānassati” as “mindfulness of breathing” is INCORRECT!
I have revised #5 of that post as follows.
5. There is a small collection of suttas in the Ānapāna Vagga of Saṁyutta Nikāya BEFORE the section on Ānāpānasati. That is to give an idea of what is involved in Ānapāna, which comes from “Āna” + “āpāna,” where two words mean “taking in (kusala)” and “discarding (akusala or defilements).”
– That section in the Ānapāna Vagga has several suttas starting with the “Aṭṭhikamahapphala Sutta (SN 46.57)” and ending with the “Ānāpāna Sutta (SN 46.66).”
– You can read the English translations in the above links and see that the word “breath” is NOT there! Of course, the INCORRECT English translation of “Ānāpānassati” as “mindfulness of breathing” in SN 46.66 does not mean the word “breathing” is mentioned in that sutta! That INCORRECT translation is in the Sutta Central translation in the above link. (Note: I usually provide the “side by side” Pāli and English translations from Sutta Central. That does NOT mean I agree with their translation. One should always be cautious about the INCORRECT translation of many words in Sutta Central translations).The nine stages represent different stages of evolvement with more cetasika. Each stage has an increasing number of cetasika as that initial “citta” stage gets increasingly contaminated.
– The final stage of vinnanakkhandha is quite complex.We never experience the intermediate stages starting with the “citta” stage. We only experience the final stage of vinnanakkhandha.
– This evolvement in nine stages is discernible only to the mind of a Buddha.It is a good question that brings out an issue that needs to be emphasized.
1. First, ākāsānañcāyatana, viññāṇañcāyatana, ākiñcaññāyatana, and nevasaññānāsaññāyatana are NOT jhāna. They are samāpatti.
– The Buddha discussed only FOUR jhānās. These are the mental states of rupavacara Brahmas.
– One can proceed to higher arupavacara samāpatti once getting to the fourth jhana.
– However, these days, the higher four arupavacara samāpatti are incorrectly labeled as the fourth through the eighth jhāna.
– In many posts, I have also used that incorrect terminology. (Please let me know if you come across them so I can revise them).In a recent post, I pointed out the above; see #4 of “Samādhi, Jhāna, and Sammā Samādhi”
– It was also discussed at the forum, “Post on “Samādhi, Jhāna, and Sammā Samādhi”2. Now, to address the question of TripleGemStudent: “I’m wondering what are the benefits of those arupa jhana’s?”
The short answer is as follows:
– A cetovimutti (or ubhatovimutti) Arahant gets to nirodha samapatti by sequentially going through the first four jhana and then the four arupavacara samapatti. Thus, there are eight steps up to that stage. The ninth step is to advance to the next stage of nirodha samapatti.
– That nine-step process is also informative in the following way. That Arahant would transcend the kama loka once getting to the first jhana. Then they would advance through higher arupavacara states, reaching the nevasaññānāsaññāyatana at the eighth step, which is the highest arupavacara Brahma realm (dimension of neither perception nor non-perception). One is almost released from this world of 31 realms at that point.
– Even anariya yogis can reach that state. But they CAN NOT get to nirodha samapatti because they have NOT removed any anusaya! They will be born in that Brahma realm at death, but they can be reborn in apayas in future lives since they have not removed any anusaya.
– But A cetovimutti (or ubhatovimutti) Arahant can “temporarily detach” from this world of 31 realms for up to seven days. Since they still have kammic energy to sustain the physical body, they will be automatically released from nirodha samapatti after seven days (unless they willingly come off before that).“Does “avinipātadhammo” mean “free of the apāyā”?”
Yes. That is correct.
– That verse comes in many suttas: “76 results for avinipātadhammo“Some Pali words have closely-related Sinhala words. I was trying to express the Sinhala meaning (ප්රමෝදය) for pāmojjaṁ with “lightness of mind.”
– But it means a bit more “energized” than just “lightness of mind.” It makes one want to “proceed with more vigor” with determination.Yes. Ultimately that is right.
– When one does not understand the true nature of the world (4NT/tilakkhana/PS), one could become confused about how to respond to some arammana or may respond to them unwisely. That leads to the agitation of mind, which is not conducive to the lightness of mind (pāmojjaṁ) and joy (pīti).The verse that Jorg quoted is in several suttas; see, for example, “Paṭhamaupanisa Sutta (AN 10.3)”
– The English translation there translates avippaṭisāra as “no regrets.” It is related, but not quite the same.You can read AN 10.1, 10.2, and a few more suttas following AN 10.3. That may help solidify the understanding.
Yes! Excellent.
“Dukkha” (“dukha” + “khaya”) is “dukha” that can be “overcome or removed” (khaya). “Dukha” is the suffering felt.
LDF wrote: “I think that drinking analogy is valid for realms above human realms.”
– No. It is valid for all realms.
Any dukha or sukha felt in the current life is due to “panca upadana khandha” in previous lives. In that analogy, “poison was consumed” in a previous life, and one now reaps the results (vipaka).
– The Buddha was injured once and had several other ailments like back pain. That was not because of “panca upadana khandha” after the Buddhahood.
– “panca upadana khandhā dukkhā” means “attaching to pancakkhandha is the cause of future suffering.”LDF wrote: “Another interesting insight is that is only because Gandhabba is kammicaly trapped in human body, that when three types of buddha removes PañcaUpādānaKhandha, they are also able to guide others to it, without instantly attaining parinibbana, isn’t it?”
– Yes. That is correct. A gandhabba of a Buddha or an Arahant can stay alive only until the kammic energy to sustain that physical body is there. Had Buddha’s physical body died right after attaining Buddhahood, his gandhabba would have perished, and he would have attained Parinibbana.
Yes. That is exactly right.
A tihetuka person WILL NOT be born without sota pasada rupa.
– But their eardrum or some other part of the brain may be damaged, and they may lose hearing.
– If they can repair that damage or use a hearing aid, they may be able to hear.The following account is from the post “Gandhabba in a Human Body – an Analogy”
Sometimes people are born with the cakkhu pasāda rūpa in good condition, but the optic nerve (or the physical eye itself) may be damaged. In that case, they cannot see because the brain is not getting a signal from the eyes.
But if the gandhabba can come out of the body, it can see by itself. The following video clearly illustrates this situation.Note that she had “never seen anything” in her whole life. It seems that either her physical eyes or the optic nerve/visual cortex in the brain had been damaged at birth. But the cakkhu pasāda rūpa was fully functional. That is why she was able to see when the gandhabba came out of her body.
– However, in other cases, one may be born blind because one may not be born with the cakkhu pasāda rūpa. In that case, even if the gandhabba comes out of the body, it would not be able to see.You don’t need to prove attaining a magga phala to anyone else, LDF.
– You can verify for yourself, and no one else can confirm or deny that.Furthermore, different people get rid of sakkaya ditthi in different ways.
– There is a sutta where the Buddha gave an analogy. One time, a bhikkhu went around asking other bhikkhus (who had declared attaining the Sotapanna stage) how to describe the Sotapanna stage. Each one gave different descriptions of the Sotapanna stage.
– That bhikkhu got confused and complained to the Buddha. The Buddha gave an analogy of asking someone to describe a tree that had a unique trunk (black), unique flowers (bright red looking like pieces of red meat), and unique leaves (specific unique shape). Some people would identify the tree as having that unique trunk, some others describe it with flowers or leaves. But they all had seen the tree!
– I don’t remember the name of that sutta.
– P.S. There are two main conclusions reached when one gets to the Sotapanna stage: One would have “seen with wisdom (panna)” that (i) there is no “permanent self” traveling the rebirth process (it happens via Paticca Samuppada), (ii) it is fruitless AND dangerous to be in the rebirth process (because most rebirths are in the apayas).By the way, here is a post that describes “temporary bhavanga”: “Bhava and Bhavaṅga – Simply Explained!“
I am glad that you understood that section. If one understands that, one can eliminate Sakkaya Ditthi, as you seem to have.
1. You wrote: “How an extremely small bit of matter powered by kammic energy can create so much suffering.”
– Yes. Many people may not fully understand how small a suddhatthaka is. It is much smaller than an atom in modern science. Yet, the “seat of the mind,” hadaya vatthu, is just a single suddhatthaka energized by kammic energy. Our huge physical body is no different from a huge tree trunk (i.e., lifeless) when that gandhabba with the hadaya vatthu leaves (at Death or in an NDE/OBE).
2. You asked: “1. looking from POV of bhavanga, sottapana has removed all apayagami bhavanga. because all citta/cetasika corresponding to those strengths are removed/reduced in javana. right?”
– You mean “temporary bhavanga,” not the “bhavanga” one is born with. Yes. One can get into an “immoral temporary bhavanga” if a tempting arammana comes to mind IF one still has anusaya. So, since a Sotapanna has removed “apayagami anusaya,” their mind will not be tempted by such an arammana and thus will not get into such a “temporary bhavanga.”
2. So, we can revise your #2 as follows: “2. As we progress, the possibility to get into more such “temporary bhavanga” are removed because less and less arammana with which we get stuck via tanha.”
– Here is another way to say the same thing: “As we progress, the possibility of getting into bad gati will be removed because corresponding anusaya will be gone.”4. You wrote: “And sense restrain will take care of food coming through contact, isn’t it?
We must deprive fire (of jati) by reducing/stopping the throwing of wood logs (through four foods) in it and also stop the supply of oxygen (three san), right?”
– That is exactly right.Your post was perfectly fine. It shows that you have a good understanding.
Regarding: “I don’t understand very complex details about two types of NamaRupa but I did understood the basic connecting point between namarupa and sakkāya diṭṭhi, how kamma viññāṇa is bridge between mind and matter.”
– You grasped the most crucial aspect, i.e., that kamma viññāṇa is the bridge between mind and matter.
– The longer one engages in abhisankhara formation (whether vaci or kaya abhisankhara), the more kamma viññāṇa one accumulates, generating “namarupa” in mind (with “vinnana paccaya namarupa”). Those three processes (“avijja paccaya sankhara,” sankhara paccaya vinnana,” and “vinnana paccaya namarupa”) may go back and forth uncountable times, generating “namarupa” or “kamma bija” that get deposited in vinnana dhatu.
– That is what powers future rebirths at cuti-patisandhi moments, taking one of such kamma bija and transforming it into a manomaya kaya with several suddhatthaka (hadaya vatthu and a set of pasada rupa).Your last statement: “Just wanted to share the decision about lifestyle change after the realisation occurred as per your comment that some elephants must be deprived by not giving them food for time until they’re very weak” captures the way to implement that understanding.
– Food for vinnana is vaci and kaya abhisankhara!
– The key is to stop generating vaci and kaya abhisankhara by “engaging with a mind-pleasing arammana.” That will weaken such kamma viññāṇa and eventually eliminate them. P.S. By the way, vaci abhisankhara (just talking to oneself OR speaking out) is as bad as engaging in bodily actions with kaya abhisankhara.
– The Buddha used different terminology for that process: Anapanasati, Satipatthana, Indriya Bhavana, etc. Ariyakanata Sila is the same thing.Welcome to the forum, namo0804!
Thank you for taking the time to write.I revised your comment as follows. I am hoping that would possibly better express your thoughts in English. Please feel free to correct where I did not get it right.
********
“These days, I quickly become aware when a bad thought (with bad cetana) comes to my mind.
Let me share my experience.In my case, I have a habit of spending too much time blaming myself when I accidentally do something bad. Instead, I need to realize why it was a bad deed, that it can have bad consequences, and stop there.
– Blaming myself for too long is not the solution. But I do need to see the adinava of such bad actions.
– Now I realize that spending too much time blaming myself will delay getting to samadhi.
– When I keep blaming myself, my mind becomes agitated, which is the opposite of samadhi!
– Now, once I realize a mistake, I promise not to repeat it and forget about it. Spending time regretting what happened will only make me agitated.
– That was also a vicious cycle that led to adding more Saṅ every moment.
– Fortunately, I remembered (the Dosakkayo’s writing) that I had read before.Since then, I thought it would be better to cultivate the opposite habit. For example, I must cultivate metta often if I get angry quickly.
Also, if I can maintain a calm mindset, it will be less likely for bad thoughts to arise.
– Contemplating the harmful consequences of bad behavior made my mind calmer.My aggression gradually decreased, and my mind became peaceful.
Ven Lal always said that understanding Dhamma could not be enforced.
– Now I could empathize with what he emphasized.I was able to experience that practicing Dhamma (living according to Dhamma) is different from just thinking about it or enforce about it myself (i.e., trying to implement a set of rules).
Cleaning the mind of kilesa(or Saṅ) was the most important thing!
– Now I understand the meanings of the Dhammapada Verse 239(Verse 239 – The Story of a Brāhmin).
– I hope this experience could be of some help to others.May the blessing of triple gem be with all beings!”
***********Thank you again for sharing your experience.
