Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
OK. I am reading the comments carefully and see a couple of improvements.
#1. “..The mind has to make contact with the nama loka then from the start of the very first pancadvaracitta, because every single memory (and defilement) is there.
That has to be done via the mana indriya as long as our gandhabba is in the physical body. ”Three points of importance:
(i) Our gati/anusaya remains in the hadaya vatthu, the seat of the mind.
(ii) Our memories (nama gotta), kamma bija, bhava remain in the vinnana dhatu (or nama loka). Except for nama gotta, the other entities have energies (below the suddhatthaka stage).
(iii) all rupa above the suddhatthaka stage are in the rupa loka that we all are familiar with.
– So we need to be careful not to confuse memories as anusaya/gati.#2. “One sees one’s favorite food. The sight is recognized and, immediately after, contact with san gati is also made, resulting in the arising of craving (in the form of raga cetasika).”
– To recognize the food, one must recall memories. Thus, the brain and the nama loka are involved in that process.
– But possible attachment to that food comes in the next step of comparing with one’s gati/anusaya. Per (i) above, those gati/anusaya remain with hadaya vatthu.#3 We can roughly describe the time sequence in a cakkhudvara citta vithi as follows.
(i) Cakkhu vinnana captures the visual.
(ii) Sampaticchana matches the visual with memories.
(iii) Santirana compares with one’s gati/anusaya.
(iv) At the votthapana, the mind decides a particular action.
(v) That action is implemented with javana citta. Abhisankhara generation, kamma vinnana formation, speech, and bodily actions originate here.
(vi) If those javana cittas are strong, a “temporary bhavanga state” will prevail after those citta vithis end. But eventually, the bhavanga will return to the “natural bhavanga state.”#4. “Anyway, the transmitter must be the mana indriya.”
– Yes. And that is a critical point. I thought I discussed this in more than one post.I recommend reading the following two posts.
You may reword your questions after reading those posts.
– If anyone else can see the problem (or state it differently,) please feel free to comment.P.S. I just realized that the following thread (esp. at the end) could be helpful:
“The role of memory in pañcadvāra and manōdvāra citta vīthi”If the mind is engaged in a citta vithi, there is no need to get memories from the nama loka.
– The next citta in a citta vithi “builds on” the information in the current citta.
– That is “asevana paccaya” : “Āsēvana and Aññamañña Paccayā“Yes. That is correct.
P.S. The Buddha set an excellent example with how he dealt with Devdatta. As we know, Devadatta remained a bhikkhu until his death. Even after he tried to take the life of the Buddha (and injured him), the Buddha did not even expel Devadatta.
– There is no point in getting into emotional “battles” with those with different views.
– But, one should not hesitate to point out any discrepancies in the opposing arguments with evidence from the Tipitaka. It is up to them to examine the evidence presented and decide.
– Once, Devadatta took 500 bhikkhus and left the Buddha. The Buddha sent Ven. Sariputta and Ven. Moggalana to advise those bhikkhus. They were able to bring those bhikkhus back.No. That is not what I meant there. It is OK to complement someone’s progress to encourage.
Just below the sentence you quoted, I explained what I meant as follows:
“This is an issue today. People get into different camps. They start arguing with the opponents and become overly supportive of people in their camps. But one should just explain Dhamma and leave others to decide the merits of those explanations.”In the “Araṇavibhaṅga Sutta (MN 139)” the Buddha explains how one should live, explain Dhamma to others, and have dhamma discussions.
1. By analyzing the name of the sutta, we can get some ideas first.
– “rana” means “battle,” and thus “arana” means staying away from conflicts/battles.
– “vibhaṅga” is to analyze.
– Thus the name of the sutta implies “how to follow and teach Dhamma without getting into conflicts/battles with others.2. Teachings (“Dhammo” in this case) that lead to conflicts are “saraṇa Dhamma.” saraṇa means “with raṇa.”
– Towards the end of the sutta repeats the verse “Tasmā eso dhammo saraṇo” to indicate teachings that lead to conflicts (“kāmapaṭisandhisukhino” or “engaging in sensual pleasures and ” attakilamathānuyogaṁ” or “going through unnecessary suffering” are given as examples. There are more.)
– The opposite teachings are “araṇa Dhamma.” araṇa means “without raṇa.” As opposed to the examples above, “majjhimā paṭipadā” is “araṇa Dhamma.”3. The word “araṇa” or “araṇṇa” comes in the “Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta”.
– Aranna is conventionally translated as forest (or forest monastery). But the hidden meaning comes from “rana” which means “battle” and thus “aranna” means staying away from battles.
– Thus, “aranna gatō vā” means “get into a calm mindset leaving behind the everyday battles”. In the conventional interpretation is says, “having gone into the forest”.
– See “Prerequisites for the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhāvanā.”4. Of course, a different meaning comes in the verse “Buddhaṁ saraṇaṁ gacchāmi.” “Saraṇattaya (kp1).”
– This is another example of words having different meanings depending on the context.P.S.: Now, to the rest of the key statements.
5. The following section — close to the beginning — is the uddesa version (brief description) of the sutta:
“Na kāmasukhamanuyuñjeyya hīnaṁ gammaṁ pothujjanikaṁ anariyaṁ anatthasaṁhitaṁ, na ca attakilamathānuyogamanuyuñjeyya dukkhaṁ anariyaṁ anatthasaṁhitaṁ. Ete kho, bhikkhave, ubho ante anupagamma majjhimā paṭipadā tathāgatena abhisambuddhā, cakkhukaraṇī ñāṇakaraṇī upasamāya abhiññāya sambodhāya nibbānāya saṁvattati. Ussādanañca jaññā, apasādanañca jaññā; ussādanañca ñatvā apasādanañca ñatvā nevussādeyya, na apasādeyya, dhammameva deseyya. Variant: apasādeyya → nāpasādeyya (bj)Sukhavinicchayaṁ jaññā; sukhavinicchayaṁ ñatvā ajjhattaṁ sukhamanuyuñjeyya. Rahovādaṁ na bhāseyya, sammukhā na khīṇaṁ bhaṇe. Variant: na khīṇaṁ → nātikhīṇaṁ (sya-all, km, mr)Ataramānova bhāseyya, no taramāno. Janapadaniruttiṁ nābhiniveseyya, samaññaṁ nātidhāveyyāti—ayamuddeso araṇavibhaṅgassa.”
– Here “ayam uddeso araṇavibhaṅgassa” means “this is the brief description of araṇavibhaṅga.”
– See “Sutta Interpretation – Uddēsa, Niddēsa, Paṭiniddēsa” for a discussion of uddesa, niddesa, paṭiniddēsa.6. I need to explain one more thing in the above verse. “Ussādanañca jaññā, apasādanañca jaññā; ussādanañca ñatvā apasādanañca ñatvā nevussādeyya, na apasādeyya, dhammameva deseyya.”
– That means “Know what it means to flatter (Ussādanañca; praise too much when in agreement) and to rebuke (apasādanañca; get into heated arguments) when in disagreement. Explain Dhamma with that understanding, i.e., explain Dhamma without getting emotional.”
– This is an issue today. People get into different camps. They start arguing with the opponents and become overly supportive of people in their camps. But one should just explain Dhamma and leave others to decide the merits of those explanations.7. The rest of the sutta is a niddēsa or a “further description” of the brief uddesa version in the verse in #5.
– Paṭiniddēsa description is normally a lengthy explanation given in an oral discourse, discussing the concepts involved in detail. That is what bhikkhus in Sri Lanka do in an hour-long discourse.
– But you should be able to read the whole sutta with the English translation given in the link. That translation is not bad but does not point out the key points.
– Feel free to ask questions if something is not clear.You did not catch the main point.
1. Most Paṭicca Samuppāda processes start with a sensory input making one’s mind attached to an ārammaṇa. For example, take a cakkhu vinnana arising due to an arammana coming through the eyes.
– First, “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhuviññāṇaṃ.”
– Then, “tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso,” ““samphassa paccayā vedanā,” “samphassa jā vedanā paccayā taṇhā,” “taṇhā paccayā upādāna.”2. At this point, one has upādāna, i.e., the mind has “pulled that arammana in, and is bound to it.”
– It is at this point that one starts accumulating abhisankhara via “avijja paccaya sankhara.”
– “nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana” and so on come in after that. One starts visualizing related events (creating namarupa in mind) and using six ayatana to accumulate more kamma.
– That is discussed in “Difference Between Tanhā and Upādāna“; see #12 in particular. I just included that post in #6 of “Cuti-Paṭisandhi – An Abhidhamma Description.”P.S. You wrote, “But the mind will analyse the object/nimitta and therefore contacts the pancakkhandha via manasikara cetasika. Thus I think the start is “nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana” where the mind adjusts the mindset in regard to gati/experience/memory.” But “gati/experience/memory” comes in at the “samphassa paccaya samphassa-ja-vedana” step. That is what I was trying to explain.
– Yes. Grasping a new bhava happens at the “upādāna paccayā bhava.”
– But starting with an arammana (nimitta for the new bhava comes in as a sensory input) the mind gets to the “upādāna paccayā bhava” step WITHOUT going through the “nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana” step.
– In fact, what I wrote above does not apply to that last citta vithi. That process of going back to the “avijja paccaya sankhara” step happens during a lifetime while accumulating more kamma!
– I got confused about your reference to the “nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana” step. That step simply does not come in for the “maranasanna citta vithi” or the last citta vithi of a bhava.Yes. MN 139 is a critical sutta on the subject.
– I think The two suttas you picked should be good enough, even though there are many suttas on the subject.Let me think about how to present the key ideas embedded in MN 139. It may take a day or two.
In the meantime, if anyone has any comments or further questions on the subject, please post.
Yes. The initial description is very good.
“The manasikāra cetasika are in each and every citta, and they are to incorporate all past memories.”
– That is correct too.“This makes complete sense for a manodvara citta vithi since the mana indriya is active during that time. What I’m not clear on is how the manasikara cetasika in a pancadvara citta vithi operates:
The mind can only process one citta vithi at a time. That means while the first 17 citta (pancadvara) arise, the mana indriya should not be able to make contact with the mind.”
– Of course, this is where some clarification is needed.1. Pancadvara means “five doors.” These are doors to the external world.
– But it is ALWAYS the mind that experiences any arammana coming through any of those doors.
– For example, cakkhu vinnana is just one citta at the beginning of a cakkhudvara citta vithi. That citta, as well as 16 others cittas, are experienced by the mind.
– Thus, cakkhu vinnana just indicates “through which door” the experience (more correctly arammana) came in.2. The post “Citta Vīthi – Processing of Sense Inputs” describes this process starting with #2.
– All 17 cittas in even the pancadvara citta vithi arise in the mind.
– Then, #6, under the heading “The Simile of Tasting a Mango,” provides an analogy.3. Earlier you correctly stated, “When the mind comes in contact with a sense input (arammana), let’s say a sight, the image is received by the eye and then transferred to the visual cortex in the brain which processes it to a suitable rupa which, in turn, is then transferred to the mind.”
– However, that does not happen in “one shot.”
– The eyes/brain capture and analyze only a brief moment (about 10 ms, or one-hundredth of a second duration according to modern science). Thus, the first snapshot may only capture a blurry image of the object.
– It would take several such snapshots to accumulate until the mind can “comprehend/fully see) that object.
– Still it would take three manodvara citta vithi following a single pancadvara citta vithis to fully grasp a single snapshot; see #9.
– In other words, it takes four citta to fully process a single snapshot of the object captured by the eyes/brain.4. Also, note that the mind processes those citta vithi VERY fast, compared to the time taken by the brain to process a single snapshot.
– The brain takes about 10 ms, or one-hundredth of a second, as I mentioned above. When that “information packet” comes to the mind (via cakkhu pasada rupa), the mind processes that within billionth (one-billionth) of a second.
– Thus, if we assume the time taken for the mind to process the four citta vithi to be 1 unit, the time taken by the brain to compile that “data packet/snapshot” would be ten million units!
– That shows how slow the brain is compared to the mind.5. Anyway, so the mind accumulates several such snapshots. The manasikara cetasika “keeps track” of those previous snapshots and helps the mind get the “full picture.”
– Of course, all that happens within less than a second.
– Only a Buddha can see such details!6. The situation is even more complex because other sensory inputs could be coming through the other “doors.”
– But the mind can “sort them out into the correct categories” with the help of the manasikara and cetana cetasika.7. I have tried to provide further details in the following two sections:
“Essential Abhidhamma – The Basics”
“Our Two Worlds – Rupa Loka and Nāma Loka”
– It will take some effort to go through them. Some posts may be more relevant than others. So, it would be a good idea to print them and organize them. Each person understands things differently.Of course, feel free to ask more questions from those posts. You are on the right track!
I have rewritten that post to address your questions. Especially see #6 and the links there.
– A key point is that cuti-patisandhi takes place in a citta vithi that starts with an arammana coming to mind. Thus the starting point in PS is “vedana paccaya tanha.” As we have discussed, that is “samphassa-ja-vedana paccaya tanha” in the niddesa version of PS.
– A patisandhi is grasped only if one generates “samphassa-ja-vedana.”Please feel free to ask more questions. This is a bit complex subject.
I have re-written the post “Bhūta and Yathābhūta – What Do They Really Mean” including the figure of Dosakkhayo.
– I have expanded the previous post; hopefully it will help clarify more issues.
– Much merits to Dosakkhayo for the figure!“I’d like to hear “what Dhamma explains about how we can know that time flows in one direction, from the past to the future.” This question has not been solved yet.”
Well. There are so many “unanswered questions.”
– If we spend our time solving “unanswered questions,” we will not have time to stop future suffering.It is informative to read the “Cūḷamālukya Sutta (MN 63).”
– The Buddha clearly stated that spending time on such issues is a waste of time.
– What benefit is to learning about those issues?P.S. Such issues are not discussed in Abhidhamma if that is what you need to know.
There is a discrepancy ONLY IF one assumes what you mentioned about “heat death” is correct.
We cannot try to reconcile Buddha Dhamma with concepts in science, which are ONLY theories.
– Of course, not all scientific theories are wrong.No. Arupavacara Brahmas just have the hadaya vatthu. Just one suddhāṭṭhaka!
A suddhāṭṭhaka is at the boundary between “(kammmic) energy” and “tangible rupa.”
– Kammic energy = kamma bija = dhammā
– Dhammā are the anidassana, appatigha rupa below the suddhāṭṭhaka stage that make contact with the mind via:
“manañca paṭicca dhamme ca uppajjāti manoviññāṇaṃ.”
– Hadaya vatthu is the seat of mind (mana.)
– See “Chachakka Sutta – Six Types of Vipāka Viññāna”It is not possible to write all this in a single post. So, it is good to have a discussion to clear any unresolved issues.
