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Excellent.
1. Just to emphasize what Jorg already mentioned.
– Moha is a universal akusala cetasika. See #6 of “Cetasika (Mental Factors)”
Therefore, it will be removed only at the Arahant stage.
– However, as Jorg mentioned, moha reduced in strength to avijja at the Sotapanna stage and removed at the Arahant stage.
– P.S. Simultaneously, lobha is reduced to raga (kama raga, rupa raga, arupa raga) and dosa is reduced to patigha). See “Lōbha, Dōsa, Mōha versus Rāga, Paṭigha, Avijjā”2. Regarding Jorg’s question, which is related to #1 above:
– Moha reduces in strength to avijja in two stages: (i) removal of 10 types of miccha ditthi BEFORE the Sotapanna stage, (ii) removal of the “wrong view” about an “unchanging self/soul/atman” at the Sotapanna stage. That second one is the same as the removal of sakkaya ditthi.
– After the Sotapanna stage, the “perception of an unchanging self” or a “me” persists as “asmi mana” up to the Arahant stage. Of course, it reduces in strength at Sakadagami and Anagami stages.
– So, the “perception of an unchanging self” starts reducing very early. Having “wrong views” enhances the “perception of an unchanging self.” Thus it starts dropping even before the Sotapanna stage.3. It is imperative to appreciate the significance of the removal of ditthis, first with the removal of the ten types of miccha ditthi and then with the removal of sakkaya ditthi.
– A huge amount of defilements are removed with the removal of those wrong views.
– “Sakkaya ditthi” is almost the same as “attanuditthi” or the “wrong views of an unchanging self or me.”
– See, “Sakkāyadiṭṭhipahāna Sutta (SN 35.166)” and “Attānudiṭṭhipahāna Sutta (SN 35. 167).”
– As we know, a Sotapanna gets on the Noble Eightfold Path by just comprehending the “wider worldview” of the Buddha. That leads to the removal of sakkaya ditthi/attanuditthi. Then one realizes that there could be much suffering when born in the apayas. The way one makes causes to be born in the apayas is explained by Paticca Samuppada. When one sees that, one realizes the anicca, dukkha, and anatta nature of this world.1 user thanked author for this post.
I did not say I was going to explain Aranavavibhangga Sutta further.
– What specifically needs further explanation? I have given enough clues to figure things out.Thank you very much, Jorg.
I received your email with the suggestions. These suggestions will make the website better and thus help others.
– Much merits for your effort!OK. I understand now.
You wrote in the first post:
“To do so, one has to learn the following three things. (i) What a good/bad time is, (ii) how to stop having a bad time, (iii) and how to have a good time. I chose this word because it doesn’t mean indulging in the “good time” in Korean. I did it because I wanted to explain what I understood with as easy words as possible, but I don’t mind changing it to a more appropriate term.”What if we revise it as:
“To do so, one has to learn the following three things. (i) What peace of mind is, (ii) how to stop a distressing mindset, (iii) and how to maintain a peaceful state of mind.”Is that consistent with what you have in mind?
To get some background information.
1. Do you understand/believe in kamma and kamma vipaka?
2. Do you believe in rebirth?Good to hear that, Jorg!
“The site is full of “Retrieving memories via the mana indriya,” but that it’s also responsible for the storage via the same route, I’ve only seen stated here. That doesn’t mean it’s not there, obviously, but for sure it’s not stated as abundantly then.”
If you can suggest pages where this should be explained, that would be great. It is OK to be repetitive because it is easy to miss a post or two while reading on a given subject.
– I may be under the impression that I have discussed enough, but it is hard to remember what I wrote where!OK. I am reading the comments carefully and see a couple of improvements.
#1. “..The mind has to make contact with the nama loka then from the start of the very first pancadvaracitta, because every single memory (and defilement) is there.
That has to be done via the mana indriya as long as our gandhabba is in the physical body. ”Three points of importance:
(i) Our gati/anusaya remains in the hadaya vatthu, the seat of the mind.
(ii) Our memories (nama gotta), kamma bija, bhava remain in the vinnana dhatu (or nama loka). Except for nama gotta, the other entities have energies (below the suddhatthaka stage).
(iii) all rupa above the suddhatthaka stage are in the rupa loka that we all are familiar with.
– So we need to be careful not to confuse memories as anusaya/gati.#2. “One sees one’s favorite food. The sight is recognized and, immediately after, contact with san gati is also made, resulting in the arising of craving (in the form of raga cetasika).”
– To recognize the food, one must recall memories. Thus, the brain and the nama loka are involved in that process.
– But possible attachment to that food comes in the next step of comparing with one’s gati/anusaya. Per (i) above, those gati/anusaya remain with hadaya vatthu.#3 We can roughly describe the time sequence in a cakkhudvara citta vithi as follows.
(i) Cakkhu vinnana captures the visual.
(ii) Sampaticchana matches the visual with memories.
(iii) Santirana compares with one’s gati/anusaya.
(iv) At the votthapana, the mind decides a particular action.
(v) That action is implemented with javana citta. Abhisankhara generation, kamma vinnana formation, speech, and bodily actions originate here.
(vi) If those javana cittas are strong, a “temporary bhavanga state” will prevail after those citta vithis end. But eventually, the bhavanga will return to the “natural bhavanga state.”#4. “Anyway, the transmitter must be the mana indriya.”
– Yes. And that is a critical point. I thought I discussed this in more than one post.I recommend reading the following two posts.
You may reword your questions after reading those posts.
– If anyone else can see the problem (or state it differently,) please feel free to comment.P.S. I just realized that the following thread (esp. at the end) could be helpful:
“The role of memory in pañcadvāra and manōdvāra citta vīthi”If the mind is engaged in a citta vithi, there is no need to get memories from the nama loka.
– The next citta in a citta vithi “builds on” the information in the current citta.
– That is “asevana paccaya” : “Āsēvana and Aññamañña Paccayā“Yes. That is correct.
P.S. The Buddha set an excellent example with how he dealt with Devdatta. As we know, Devadatta remained a bhikkhu until his death. Even after he tried to take the life of the Buddha (and injured him), the Buddha did not even expel Devadatta.
– There is no point in getting into emotional “battles” with those with different views.
– But, one should not hesitate to point out any discrepancies in the opposing arguments with evidence from the Tipitaka. It is up to them to examine the evidence presented and decide.
– Once, Devadatta took 500 bhikkhus and left the Buddha. The Buddha sent Ven. Sariputta and Ven. Moggalana to advise those bhikkhus. They were able to bring those bhikkhus back.No. That is not what I meant there. It is OK to complement someone’s progress to encourage.
Just below the sentence you quoted, I explained what I meant as follows:
“This is an issue today. People get into different camps. They start arguing with the opponents and become overly supportive of people in their camps. But one should just explain Dhamma and leave others to decide the merits of those explanations.”In the “Araṇavibhaṅga Sutta (MN 139)” the Buddha explains how one should live, explain Dhamma to others, and have dhamma discussions.
1. By analyzing the name of the sutta, we can get some ideas first.
– “rana” means “battle,” and thus “arana” means staying away from conflicts/battles.
– “vibhaṅga” is to analyze.
– Thus the name of the sutta implies “how to follow and teach Dhamma without getting into conflicts/battles with others.2. Teachings (“Dhammo” in this case) that lead to conflicts are “saraṇa Dhamma.” saraṇa means “with raṇa.”
– Towards the end of the sutta repeats the verse “Tasmā eso dhammo saraṇo” to indicate teachings that lead to conflicts (“kāmapaṭisandhisukhino” or “engaging in sensual pleasures and ” attakilamathānuyogaṁ” or “going through unnecessary suffering” are given as examples. There are more.)
– The opposite teachings are “araṇa Dhamma.” araṇa means “without raṇa.” As opposed to the examples above, “majjhimā paṭipadā” is “araṇa Dhamma.”3. The word “araṇa” or “araṇṇa” comes in the “Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta”.
– Aranna is conventionally translated as forest (or forest monastery). But the hidden meaning comes from “rana” which means “battle” and thus “aranna” means staying away from battles.
– Thus, “aranna gatō vā” means “get into a calm mindset leaving behind the everyday battles”. In the conventional interpretation is says, “having gone into the forest”.
– See “Prerequisites for the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhāvanā.”4. Of course, a different meaning comes in the verse “Buddhaṁ saraṇaṁ gacchāmi.” “Saraṇattaya (kp1).”
– This is another example of words having different meanings depending on the context.P.S.: Now, to the rest of the key statements.
5. The following section — close to the beginning — is the uddesa version (brief description) of the sutta:
“Na kāmasukhamanuyuñjeyya hīnaṁ gammaṁ pothujjanikaṁ anariyaṁ anatthasaṁhitaṁ, na ca attakilamathānuyogamanuyuñjeyya dukkhaṁ anariyaṁ anatthasaṁhitaṁ. Ete kho, bhikkhave, ubho ante anupagamma majjhimā paṭipadā tathāgatena abhisambuddhā, cakkhukaraṇī ñāṇakaraṇī upasamāya abhiññāya sambodhāya nibbānāya saṁvattati. Ussādanañca jaññā, apasādanañca jaññā; ussādanañca ñatvā apasādanañca ñatvā nevussādeyya, na apasādeyya, dhammameva deseyya. Variant: apasādeyya → nāpasādeyya (bj)Sukhavinicchayaṁ jaññā; sukhavinicchayaṁ ñatvā ajjhattaṁ sukhamanuyuñjeyya. Rahovādaṁ na bhāseyya, sammukhā na khīṇaṁ bhaṇe. Variant: na khīṇaṁ → nātikhīṇaṁ (sya-all, km, mr)Ataramānova bhāseyya, no taramāno. Janapadaniruttiṁ nābhiniveseyya, samaññaṁ nātidhāveyyāti—ayamuddeso araṇavibhaṅgassa.”
– Here “ayam uddeso araṇavibhaṅgassa” means “this is the brief description of araṇavibhaṅga.”
– See “Sutta Interpretation – Uddēsa, Niddēsa, Paṭiniddēsa” for a discussion of uddesa, niddesa, paṭiniddēsa.6. I need to explain one more thing in the above verse. “Ussādanañca jaññā, apasādanañca jaññā; ussādanañca ñatvā apasādanañca ñatvā nevussādeyya, na apasādeyya, dhammameva deseyya.”
– That means “Know what it means to flatter (Ussādanañca; praise too much when in agreement) and to rebuke (apasādanañca; get into heated arguments) when in disagreement. Explain Dhamma with that understanding, i.e., explain Dhamma without getting emotional.”
– This is an issue today. People get into different camps. They start arguing with the opponents and become overly supportive of people in their camps. But one should just explain Dhamma and leave others to decide the merits of those explanations.7. The rest of the sutta is a niddēsa or a “further description” of the brief uddesa version in the verse in #5.
– Paṭiniddēsa description is normally a lengthy explanation given in an oral discourse, discussing the concepts involved in detail. That is what bhikkhus in Sri Lanka do in an hour-long discourse.
– But you should be able to read the whole sutta with the English translation given in the link. That translation is not bad but does not point out the key points.
– Feel free to ask questions if something is not clear.You did not catch the main point.
1. Most Paṭicca Samuppāda processes start with a sensory input making one’s mind attached to an ārammaṇa. For example, take a cakkhu vinnana arising due to an arammana coming through the eyes.
– First, “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhuviññāṇaṃ.”
– Then, “tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso,” ““samphassa paccayā vedanā,” “samphassa jā vedanā paccayā taṇhā,” “taṇhā paccayā upādāna.”2. At this point, one has upādāna, i.e., the mind has “pulled that arammana in, and is bound to it.”
– It is at this point that one starts accumulating abhisankhara via “avijja paccaya sankhara.”
– “nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana” and so on come in after that. One starts visualizing related events (creating namarupa in mind) and using six ayatana to accumulate more kamma.
– That is discussed in “Difference Between Tanhā and Upādāna“; see #12 in particular. I just included that post in #6 of “Cuti-Paṭisandhi – An Abhidhamma Description.”P.S. You wrote, “But the mind will analyse the object/nimitta and therefore contacts the pancakkhandha via manasikara cetasika. Thus I think the start is “nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana” where the mind adjusts the mindset in regard to gati/experience/memory.” But “gati/experience/memory” comes in at the “samphassa paccaya samphassa-ja-vedana” step. That is what I was trying to explain.
– Yes. Grasping a new bhava happens at the “upādāna paccayā bhava.”
– But starting with an arammana (nimitta for the new bhava comes in as a sensory input) the mind gets to the “upādāna paccayā bhava” step WITHOUT going through the “nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana” step.
– In fact, what I wrote above does not apply to that last citta vithi. That process of going back to the “avijja paccaya sankhara” step happens during a lifetime while accumulating more kamma!
– I got confused about your reference to the “nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana” step. That step simply does not come in for the “maranasanna citta vithi” or the last citta vithi of a bhava.
