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“I’d like to know why the paccuppanna rūpakkhanda excepted.”
– Yes. That should not be excluded. It takes a fraction of a second for the “image of a rupa” to go through the mind, and it is instantly registered. I will delete that sentence tomorrow.“I am still looking for the key criterion to distinguish between nāma and rūpa. Why rūpakkhanda is not nāma? I am asking this question because rūpakkhanda was not mentioned.”
– The mind can “see” rupakkhandha, i.e., it can “see” the shape, features, etc. of a rupa.
– For example, when we see a tree, the mind sees it with its trunk, branches, leaves, etc.
– However, only the “necessary ingredients (vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana) that can “re-create” that “image of the tree” is preserved in the namaloka as namagotta. When those ingredients are reflected back to the mind as “dhammā,” the mind can re-create the “image of the tree.” In other words, namagotta are NOT rupakkhandha.The post, “Difference Between Physical Rūpa and Rūpakkhandha” could help figure it out.
I think it would be easier to think about it the following way.
1. Nāmaloka (viññāṇa dhātu) consists of the four mental aggregates: vedanakkhandha, saññākkhandha, saṅkhārakkhandha, and viññāṇakkhandha.
– Part of it (associated with kamma viññāṇa) is “energized.” It has kammic energies created by kamma viññāṇa.
– The rest has no associated energy; those are only memory records.
– Now, we also need to realize that “memory records with kammic energy” keep losing kammic energy with time and get added to the part without energy.2. In that sense, the two categories do not stay separated. There are two categories, but the “energized nāmagotta” keeps moving into the other category over time.
– But more “energized nāmagotta” are being created as one cultivates abhisankhara.
– Of course, even more “non-energized nāmagotta” are also being created as we live our lives. Each experience is added to nāmagotta.I thought about this issue some more.
– The situation becomes even clearer if we put it in the following way.1. At the first level, nāmagotta are the four “nāma” aggregates: vedanakkhandha, saññākkhandha, saṅkhārakkhandha, and viññāṇakkhandha.
2. One part of nāmagotta is associated with vipāka viññāṇa. They don’t have kammic energies. They are “memory records” without any associated energy.
– The other part of nāmagotta is associated with kamma viññāṇa. Those are dhammā that can bring vipāka. They also belong to “memory records” but have associated kammic energies and can bring vipāka on their own.3. Thus, regardless of whether they have associated kammic energies or not, all of viññāṇakkhandha contribute to nāmagotta.
4. If anyone has questions/comments, please post. The more we discuss, the clearer it becomes.
– Some may not have thought about such details.
– Of course, one can get to the Sotapanna stage without getting into such details. The critical part is to realize this world’s unfruitful/dangerous nature (in the rebirth process.)The following sentences edited 9/25/22: That is not entirely correct. that was due to a mistake I made. The correct way to say it is as follows: Namagotta or memory records include both records with and without kammic energy. Each sensory experience and our response to them are included in namagotta (all vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana associated with every experience AND response). Some of them embed kammic energy when ABHISANKHARA was involved, i.e., when KAMMA VINNANA was involved. Those latter kind are namagotta with energy, i.e., dhammā. I later explained it in my next post below.
1. Furthermore, the ability to “activate” (and, thus, recall) specific parts of namagotta depends on the mind.
– Those who cultivate higher jhanas and develop abhinna powers can recall many past lives, for example. In the earlier analogy, this corresponds to having a “stronger flashlight.”
– A Buddha can recall as many past lives as he wishes.2. Some average people can recall events in their current lives in great detail.
– See “Search Results for: HSAM”
– This is a very interesting subject. It is also an informative subject where one can gain insight.You wrote: “Okay. So everything I wrote above(except rūpakkhanda) belongs to one of these two categories(“dhammā below the suddhāṭṭhaka” and “namagotta”). Right? Did I miss anything?”
Yes. Everything you wrote was correct. Very good. You have a good understanding.
You wrote: “I know that vedanakkhandha, saññākkhandha, saṅkhārakkhandha, and viññāṇakkhandha are preserved permanently in nāmalōka, but rūpakkhanda are not. And I don’t know why rūpakkhanda can not be preserved even though it is mental. (I wonder why this is.).”
That is an excellent question.
1. Rūpakkhanda is preserved in nāmalōka as namagotta. It is just a record, without any energy.2. So, there are two types of entities in the nāmalōka: (i) dhammā with kammic energy and (ii) namagotta without energy.
– dhammā can “come back” to our minds on their own. That is how kamma vipaka takes place. When the conditions are right, they bring vipaka.
– namagotta CAN NOT come back on their own. If we want to recall something, we must try to recall that particular memory. That requires a bit more explanation. I will try to explain it as simply as possible because it is important to understand.3. How do we recall memories?
– When we try to recall a past event, the mind SENDS OUT a request to nāmalōka or viññāṇa dhātu.
– Depending on the strength of that “signal” sent out, it MAY reflect that particular memory back to the mind. If the strength is enough, it is captured by the mind via “mananca paticca dhammeca uppajjati mano vinnanam.” Thus, it comes back as a dhammā because it gained energy from the signal that the mind sent out.
– Let me give an analogy.Suppose we enter a dark room in a dark house with a chair sitting in a corner. We cannot see the chair or anything else in that room. That is the analogy of a namagotta that we are trying to recall.
– Now, if we had a flashlight, we could turn it on and direct it to the chair. Now, that light will bounce back from the chair, and we will be able to see it.
– That light beam from the flashlight is analogous to the “mind signal” sent out to nāmalōka in #3 above.Suppose we enter the same dark room where a small lighted candle is sitting in a corner.
– We can see that lighted candle without the aid of a flashlight.
– Light from the candle itself is enough for us to see it.
– That lighted candle is like dhammā can “come back” to our minds on their own (see #2)I hope that analogy can explain the difference between namagotta and dhammā.
– Let me know if anyone has questions.
– I am glad that Dosakkhayo asked this question. It is good to understand that detail.1 user thanked author for this post.
1. The only “rupas” (at or above the hadaya vatthu/suddhatthaka stage) in mano loka are the hadaya vatthus of the arupavacara Brahmas.
– A hadaya vatthu is right at the suddhāṭṭhaka stage.
– It cannot be seen by anyone but a Buddha.2. Ancient yogis were able to “see” rupavacara Brahmas. But they could not see arupavacara Brahmas.
– That is why the term “arupavacara” came to use.
– Of course, there are no other rupas at or above the suddhāṭṭhaka stage in the arupavacara realms.3. Hadaya vatthu of arupavacara Brahmas do not belong to viññāṇa dhātu.
– Only dhammā below the suddhāṭṭhaka AND namagotta (memory records) belong to viññāṇa dhātu.Yes. These word-by-word translations can lead to a lot of confusion.
– Most translators use a “mechanical way” to translate suttas. They have certain Pali words associated with certain English words, and just “plug in” the English word for the Pali word!
– Wherever the word “atta” comes, they translate that as “self.”1. “Atta/anatta” can have many meanings depending on the context. There are two main groups.
– Some meanings of “anatta” are associated with “having no essence.”
– The other means “not worth to be taken as mine.” The deeper meaning there is nothing in this world (including one’s body) is associated with an entity like a “soul.” Those below the Sotapanna Anugami stage (i.e., without comprehension of anicca, dukkha, anatta OR Paticca Samuppada) should go with the first version. Before one comprehends Paticca Samuppada, it is not advisable to think too much about its deeper meaning.2. “suñño” or “suñña” literally means “empty.”
– However, “‘suñño loko” does not means “the world is empty.” Of course, the world is NOT empty.
– The meaning of that verse is “the world is empty of anything substantial or worthwhile.”
– We attach to things in this world with the view and perception that those things are of value. Then we may even do immoral deeds in pursuing them.
– The first step in Paticca Samuppada is “avijja paccaya (abhi)sankhara.” We think, speak, and do things with that ignorance (avijja). All those mano, vaci, and kaya sankhara lead to “bhava paccaya jati” and “jati paccaya jara, marana, etc.” or the “whole mass of suffering.”
– Thus, the sutta explains that it is unwise to pursue things without value and get into trouble!3. If we take the verse, “Cakkhu kho, ānanda, suññaṁ attena vā attaniyena vā” it needs to be understood in the above context.
– “attena” in the above implies “cakkhu (not just the physical eyes) is not of true essence/value” especially when used in accumulating akusala kamma. attaniyena means it is also not wise to “take it as mine.” But this sutta is not suitable for those starting because it may lead to confusion (“What do you mean the eyes are not mine??” is a reasonable response! The sutta does not say that; but this requires a lengthy explanation. Basically, I need to start teaching Paticca Samuppada here!)
– Thus, explaining the sutta reasonably will take at least an hour-long discourse.
– The key point is that before trying to understand these suttas, it is necessary to understand Paticca Samuppada (PS.)
– Thus, instead of reading badly translated suttas, it is better to spend time trying to understand PS. Once one understands PS it will be much easier to understand many suttas.
– See the discussion at, “What if Nibbana Is not the Final Achievement?”4. A good starting point could be “Paṭicca Samuppāda in Plain English.”
Happy to hear that, Dosakkhayo!
– Different people have different ways of getting into the Path. We are glad that you found a way.
– Yes. The priority is getting to magga phala.Thanks to LayDhammaFollower for his input!
Yes. It is good to ask questions.
– But sometimes, some questions become irrelevant because the basis for asking them is not there.
– Of course, many of your questions have been “legitimate.” The problem is with the last question: “The real question is the following: I have been worried about what if Nibbana is not the final achievement.”
– That question would not come up if one understood the “wider worldview” of the Buddha and how he explained how to stop future suffering. If that worldview is understood, it will automatically become clear WHY that is the final solution.The following question you asked in the first post could be a good start.
“So, the statement of sabba sutta is very meaningful to me. Because it presents the limit of the world. “Sabba Sutta (SN 35.23)”
“Yo, bhikkhave, evaṁ vadeyya: ‘ahametaṁ sabbaṁ paccakkhāya aññaṁ sabbaṁ paññāpessāmī’ti, tassa vācāvatthukamevassa; puṭṭho ca na sampāyeyya, uttariñca vighātaṁ āpajjeyya. Taṁ kissa hetu? Yathā taṁ, bhikkhave, avisayasmin”ti.
translation:
“Mendicants, suppose someone was to say: ‘I’ll reject this all and describe another all.’ They’d have no grounds for that, they’d be stumped by questions, and, in addition, they’d get frustrated. Why is that? Because they’re out of their element.”
(I hope that lal explains the meaning of Pali word avisaya.)” (END OF QUOTE)Let us start with the question you had there. That may help, indeed.
– “avisaya” in this context means “not discernible” or “does not have enough knowledge about.”
– Thus, no one but a Buddha has the necessary knowledge base. That subject is “avisaya” for any human, no matter how intelligent.1. Scientists are making discoveries about the world, But they will never reach the “knowledge base” of a Buddha.
– I discussed that concerning the origin of life (origin of consciousness) in the series on “Origin of Life.”
– Reading that series requires a matching background and enough interest to spend the time reading through. But that may match your background.2. The other point I want to make is regarding the “Sabba Sutta.”
– As explained at the beginning of the sutta, “everything in this world” is included in the six sense faculties and the six types of rupa in the external world.
– When the rebirth process stops at the death of an Arahant, the current hadaya vatthu (with the set of pasada rupa) dies, and no new hadaya vatthu can arise.
– That the “end of the world.” That lifestream would not experience this world of 31 realms anymore. Any birth within the rebirth process is INTRINSICALLY associated with decay and death, i.e., suffering.
– Thus, attaining Arahanthood IS the final solution. What else can be there if the whole world is absent?3. I know that talking about “stopping rebirth” is unsettling to many people.
– That is because of the wrong view and perception of a permanent “me” that has been with us from a timeless beginning.
– On the other hand, if there is a “permanent self/me,” why worry about stopping rebirth? It is best to move forward step by step. P.S. If there is a “permanent self/me,” then it is baseless to worry about losing it at Arahanthood.
– Yet, for some (like you), such issues may be “nagging.” In that case, reviewing the “Origin of Life” could be beneficial to see why Buddha’s worldview has “better explanatory power.”Inputs like yours help keep the website self-consistent and consistent with the Tipitaka. That will make it easier for all to navigate this website. Thank you!
P.S. The website has over 700 posts now. I am thinking about doing some re-organization. Also, many old posts need to be revised.
Thanks, Jorg.
I revised that as:
“Finally, where are these anusaya in “storage”? They get transferred from one hadaya vatthu to the next at the moment of grasping a new existence at the cuti-paṭisandhi moment.”Please let me know if you come across any more. You are doing a good job of scanning!
P.S. Also added a reference post: “Anusaya, Gati, Bhava – Connection to Manomaya Kāya (Gandhabba).” Bullet #6 there explains this in detail.
In my opinion, you need to take a different approach.
You wrote: “The real question is the following: I have been worried about what if Nibbana is not the final achievement.”
That means you have not understood the “wider worldview” of the Buddha.
– If one has understood the process of getting to Nibbana, one would have absolutely no doubts about whether Nibbana is the final achievement.
– That means comprehending the Paticca samuppada processes.1. If you do not have doubts about the rebirth process and the laws of kamma, that is a good starting point. That is why I asked that question earlier too.
– Because the key premise of Buddha Dhamma is that there is a rebirth process involving 31 realms, four of which have unimaginable suffering.
– Paticca Samuppada describes how rebirths in different realms arise, starting with “avijja paccaya sankhara.” That ALWAYS ends up in “bhava paccaya jati” and “jati paccaya jara,marana, soka, ..”, the “whole mass of suffering.”
– There is no jati (birth) without old age and death. Furthermore, there is much suffering even during existence in the lowest four realms.
– Here, avijja is the ignorance of the Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana.2. My advice is to focus on that instead of Anapanasati.
– Anapanasati can be cultivated ONLY after getting rid of those doubts.
– Those doubts start to go away only when one starts comprehending the Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana.
– As I pointed out today in another thread, getting rid of sakkaya ditthi is the key to the Sotapanna stage. Together with sakkaya ditthi, two other samyojana (vicikiccha and silabbata paramasa) also break. Vicikiccha includes doubts (such as the one you have) about Buddha’s teachings. Silabbata paramasa is the wrong view that one can attain Nibbana by following rituals.
– Nibbana can be attained only after comprehending the “wider worldview” of the Buddha; there is no need for rituals.3. My apologies for being blunt. In my mind, it is better to be honest, and straightforward.
– I can see that you have a good analytical mind. However, no matter how intelligent one is, until one learns the fundamentals of Buddha Dhamma, there is no chance of significant progress.
– Those fundamentals are the Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana.
– I am not sure about your understanding of Paṭicca Samuppāda. You can take a look at the posts in the “Paṭicca Samuppāda” section. But, of course, it is up to you to decide how you want to proceed.“Though, avijja and mana may have relatively more influence on the sense of a “self.”
1. Yes. That is correct.
2. That is the main reason ALL asobhana cetasikas reduce strength as avijja and mana decrease.
– It is the view and perception of “me” and “mine” that lead to ALL defilements (and akusala kamma), i.e., energize all asobhana cetasikas.
– The largest change happens at the Sotapanna stage when one loses the wrong view of “me” by getting rid of sakkaya ditthi. Look at the list of asobhana cetasikas removed by a Sotapanna in your list in the first post. The Buddha said the fraction of defilements left in a Sotapanna compared to an average human is like a small pebble compared to a mountain.2 users thanked author for this post.
Yes. All such cetasika (kama raga, patigha, mana, uddhacca, avijja, as well as rupa raga and arupa raga) lose strength as one gets to Sakadagami and higher stages of Nibbana.
Yes. Your understanding is good.
Let me point to specific places in the sutta, so that others can follow it:
1. The verse you quoted first “Sukhavinicchayaṁ jaññā; sukhavinicchayaṁ ñatvā ajjhattaṁ sukhamanuyuñjeyya” is the beginning of a new section here (labeled 9.1):
“Araṇavibhaṅga Sutta”– There, the Buddha first describes sukha vedana experienced by anariyas (average humans) who attach to kama guna and indulge in sensual pleasures:
“9.1‘Sukhavinicchayaṁ jaññā; 9.2sukhavinicchayaṁ ñatvā ajjhattaṁ sukhamanuyuñjeyyā’ti—9.3iti kho panetaṁ vuttaṁ. Kiñcetaṁ paṭicca vuttaṁ? 9.4Pañcime, bhikkhave, kāmaguṇā. 9.5Katame pañca? 9.6Cakkhuviññeyyā rūpā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā, 9.7sotaviññeyyā saddā … 9.8ghānaviññeyyā gandhā … 9.9jivhāviññeyyā rasā … 9.10kāyaviññeyyā phoṭṭhabbā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā—9.11ime kho, bhikkhave, pañca kāmaguṇā. 9.12Yaṁ kho, bhikkhave, ime pañca kāmaguṇe paṭicca uppajjati sukhaṁ somanassaṁ idaṁ vuccati kāmasukhaṁ mīḷhasukhaṁ puthujjanasukhaṁ anariyasukhaṁ.2. Then, (as you mentioned) the Buddha describes the (Ariya) jhanic sukha experienced by those who attain Ariya jhana via the removal of kama raga anusaya. That starts at 9.13 in the above link:
“9.13‘Na āsevitabbaṁ, na bhāvetabbaṁ, na bahulīkātabbaṁ, bhāyitabbaṁ etassa sukhassā’ti—vadāmi. 9.14Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati. 9.15Vitakkavicārānaṁ vūpasamā ajjhattaṁ sampasādanaṁ cetaso ekodibhāvaṁ avitakkaṁ avicāraṁ samādhijaṁ pītisukhaṁ dutiyaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati. 9.16Pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati …pe… tatiyaṁ jhānaṁ …pe… 9.17catutthaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati. 9.18Idaṁ vuccati nekkhammasukhaṁ pavivekasukhaṁ upasamasukhaṁ sambodhisukhaṁ. 9.19‘Āsevitabbaṁ, bhāvetabbaṁ, bahulīkātabbaṁ, na bhāyitabbaṁ etassa sukhassā’ti—vadāmi. 9.20‘Sukhavinicchayaṁ jaññā; 9.21sukhavinicchayaṁ ñatvā ajjhattaṁ sukhamanuyuñjeyyā’ti—9.22iti yaṁ taṁ vuttaṁ idametaṁ paṭicca vuttaṁ.”
– The verse at 9.18: “Idaṁ vuccati nekkhammasukhaṁ pavivekasukhaṁ upasamasukhaṁ sambodhisukhaṁ.” is translated correctly as: “This is called the pleasure of renunciation, the pleasure of seclusion, the pleasure of peace, the pleasure of awakening.”
That could be stated a little better as: “This is called the pleasure of renunciation of sensual pleasures, the pleasure of release from mental agitation (viveka), the pleasure of getting samma samadhi (away from kāmasukha and attakilamathānuyoga,) the pleasure of awakening.”3. The verse, “Rahovādaṁ na bhāseyya, sammukhā na khīṇaṁ bhaṇe’ti” related to your question comes at 10.1.
-Yes. The English translation there is good. If you read the rest of it, it will become clearer.
– The point is the following: When one comprehends the anicca, dukkha, and anatta nature of this world, it will be easier to engage in such behavior. One just needs to be mindful.4. Your comment about the Buddha advising bhikkhus to cultivate jhana is valid.
– “Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.”
– It is impossible for “householders” to truly abstain from sensual pleasures and eliminate kama raga anusaya. They can get to anariya jhana (that holds only during this life; some lose the ability to get into jhana even before this life ends, as happened to Devadatta) but not Ariya jhana.– P.S. If a Sotapanna attains an anariya jhana, it is unlikely they will lose it before dying. Thus, they will be born in a Brahma realm (not a suddhavasa Brahma realm) and attain Arahanthood from there. Thus Sotapannas with anariya jhana are also Angamis, in the sense that they will not return to kama loka.
