[Tobias G]

“uppado sankata lakkhanan, sankhara dukkhata;
vayo sankata lakkhanan, viparinama dukkhata;
titthassa sankata lakkhanan, dukkha dukkhata”

Where is that stated in a sutta?

[Tobias G]

“uppado sankata lakkhanan, sankhara dukkhata;
vayo sankata lakkhanan, viparinama dukkhata;
titthassa sankata lakkhanan, dukkha dukkhata”

Where is that stated in a sutta?

[Tobias G]

assada = mind made pleasures/abhisankhara
adinava = bad consequences of kama or mind pleasing things
nissarana = with understanding one makes an end to the samsaric journey

Maybe the Pali words you search for are jāti, vipariṇāma, maraṇa.

[Tobias G]

Yes, 5 weeks at the site. But it is also not clear if this Bodhi tree is the tree where he attained enlightment.
The text says:
“Soon after his awakening, the Buddha was staying at Uruvelā on the bank of the river Nerañjara at the foot of a Bodhi tree.”

[Tobias G]

In Mahākhandhaka it is described as 7 days under a Bodhi tree, then 7 days under another type of tree and so on. I cannot find 5 or 7 weeks at the Bodhi tree.

[Tobias G]

The mindmap pdf page 10 contains 5 stages of a sankata, which is not explained in Tipitaka. There we have only 3 stage: arising, viparinama, death.

Also the 5 dhammata are not in the Tipitaka, except dhamma niyama (Paṭicca Samuppāda).

[Tobias G]

Hi Lang, this I also asked in another post.

SengKiat answered:
This is my translation:
There is no jhāna for (those) without pañña,
pañña, there is not for (those) without jhāna,
Which ever indeed have jhāna and paññā,
that truly is near to Nibbāna.

Translation from Tipiṭaka.net:
Verse 372: There can be no concentration in one who lacks wisdom; there can be no wisdom in one who lacks concentration. He who has concentration as well as wisdom is, indeed, close to Nibbana.

With mettā, Seng Kiat

—————-
Lal answered:
jhāna does not necessarily mean transcending the kāma loka and attaining “jhānic states” as commonly interpreted these days.

“Jhāna” means to “cleanse one’s defilements (especially kāma raga“) by making an effort, especially via Anapanasati and Satipatthana Bhavana.
– When one does that panna grows and one may also attain “jhānic states.”

This verse basically says that one needs to cultivate both jhāna and panna. The latter, of course, via learning true Dhamma. In fact, they grow together.

One can get a better idea of the meaning of the verse by looking at other verses in the sequence:
“Dhammapada Verses 368 to 376“

[Tobias G]

What we discussed already here, the definition of “bhava” is missing for the final kusala mula PS. In the first cycles it is:

Tattha katamo adhimokkhapaccayā bhavo?
Ṭhapetvā adhimokkhaṁ, vedanākkhandho saññākkhandho saṅkhārakkhandho viññāṇakkhandho

That means vinnana dathu or “registration in mind”, right?

[Tobias G]

In #13 you say:
“…With adhimokkha as a condition, (Ariya) bhava arises. Note that an Ariya bhava arises via ELIMINATING a uppatti bhava. For example, one is “born” an Anāgāmi by eliminating the possibility of rebirths in the 11 realms of kāma loka.”

This means kusala kamma really removes kamma seeds, which is wrong! Uppatti bhava is like kammabhava a “stored abhisankhara” or a kamma energy. But kusala kamma cannot eliminate such energies. As you said Angulimala still had enough kamma seeds “on store” when he became an Arahant. So the sentence in #13 is confusing.

Can you write that kusala mula PS has no kammic consequences and just reduces the ability to operate the akusala mula PS? Thus “(Ariya)bhava” in kusala mula PS means just the “registration of nana/panna in the mind/namaloka” (sanna-, vedana-, sankhara-, vinnanakhandha). With that “knowledge” the mind will not grasp any bad bhava at cuti moment and increasingly no other bhava at all.

[Tobias G]

Thanks Lal!
But still I must say that the text gives the impression the kusala mula PS leads to rebirth (as Ariya). But it does not tell us that the kusala mula PS has no kammic consequences and just reduces the ability to operate the akusala mula PS. It should be said that ALL rebirth happens via the akusala mula PS.

For example you say in #13:
“..The resulting existence (or “bhava“) matches that state of mind: “paṭi+ichcha sama uppāda“; one “lives” that experience.
If it is a rebirth at patisandhi, an appropriate “bhava” is selected according to the kamma nimitta.”

This new bhava mentioned above is selected via akusala mula PS, but not via kusala mula PS. The kusala mula PS just reduces the options to select a bad bhava.

[Tobias G]

OK, now I understand the kusala mula PS is not completely displayed.

What we don’t know: how is bhava defined in the last cycle with namarupa involved? It should not be kammabhava/upapattibhava, because the kamma is akaṇhaṃ asukkaṃ (neither dark nor bright).

Is there a complete kusala mula PS in the literature, in a commentary in the Tipitaka?

[Tobias G]

Ok, which point in Vb 6 shows that kusala mula PS with namarupa? I don’t find it in the Pali-version. It should be in No 2 Kusalaniddesa

[Tobias G]

Lal, if you agree that “The Kusala-mula PS does not accumulate kamma bhava.
– But it ELEVATES one to higher bhava, by eliminating the ability to be “hooked into” lower bhava”

then you should modify the post on kusala mula PS because there you describe it as if the kusala mula PS is responsible for upatti and pavutti bhava. You could add an explanation of the “hook” and the ability to operate the akusala mula PS which gets reduced with kusala kamma. Otherwise the people will think the kusala mula PS itself will bring new bhava.

[Tobias G]

Ok, now I understand where you see the “namarupa” in kusala kamma. Can it be that this preparation of food is just punna kamma and the kusala thoughts with understanding are in the background and operate the kusala mula PS? Otherwise why is it not mentioned in Vb 6 as namarupa? It seems kusala kamma is only mind made.

[Tobias G]

There is more in the last step of kusala mula PS which adds more argument to my position.

The last step in 2.10.1.1. Mahākusalacitta says: “… bhavapaccayā jāti, jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṁ. Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hoti”

But we know that jati of a Sotapanna (Anugami) is filled with more dukkha than just “jaramaranam“. Thus this is not the physical birth or the new bhava in the human realm. This can be just the registry in namaloka.

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