[Tobias G]

Thank you for the clarification that viññāṇa paccayā nāmarūpa occurs at the Sampaṭicchana citta. I am still having difficulty mapping the early stages (kāma dhātu, bahiddha viññāṇa, and ajjhatta viññāṇa) onto both the Paṭicca Samuppāda sequence and the citta vīthi. Could you clarify the following:

1. At which citta in the citta vīthi does the mind move from the kāma dhātu stage (with the initial mind-made rūpa and distorted kāma saññā) into the bahiddha viññāṇa stage? Does this happen already in the Pañcadvāravajjana citta, or only with the Cakkhu viññāṇa citta?
2. In the Paṭicca Samuppāda sequence, where do the bahiddha viññāṇa and ajjhatta viññāṇa stages correspond?
   • Does bahiddha viññāṇa cover the steps from avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra up to viññāṇa paccayā nāmarūpa?
   • Does the transition to ajjhatta viññāṇa (and the conversion of indriya to āyatana) begin with the nāmarūpa paccayā saḷāyatana step?
3. Since viññāṇa paccayā nāmarūpa takes place at the Sampaṭicchana citta, does that mean the bahiddha viññāṇa stage is completed by that point, while the ajjhatta viññāṇa stage (with saḷāyatana) begins at or after the Sampaṭicchana citta (e.g., during santīraṇa)?
4. In the verse cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhu viññāṇaṃ, is the rūpe the mind-made rūpa of the bahiddha stage, and has the mind already left the kāma dhātu stage by this point?

5. Does the same sequence apply when dhammā come directly to the mind-door (mano dvāra)? (kāma dhātu → bahiddha viññāṇa → ajjhatta viññāṇa)

These points would help connect the citta vīthi, the early Paṭicca Samuppāda steps, and the bahiddha / ajjhatta description.

• This reply was modified 3 days ago by Tobias G.

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jennydo

[Tobias G]

How is the Paṭicca Samuppāda process (especially Idappaccayatā) to be connected with the Abhidhamma sequence of a sensory input?

Specifically: The pasāda rūpa receive the information from the external world and pass it to the hadaya vatthu (generating a hadaya rūpa = vibration of the hadaya vatthu lasting 17 citta). The mind receives the information.

Question: Is the nāmarūpa in Paṭicca Samuppāda (at viññāṇa paccayā nāmarūpa) the first mind-made rūpa of this sensory event — or does an internal mind-made rūpa (with kāma saññā) already exist beforehand, to which the mind then reacts with avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra, thereby generating bahiddha viññāṇa?

In the verse cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhu viññāṇaṃ — is the rūpe here already the mind-made rūpa of the bahiddha stage, or does that arise only afterward?

I do not see this sequence clearly explained. Could you briefly clarify the order?

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jennydo

[Tobias G]

reference: Pañca Indriya and Pañca Bala – Five Faculties and Five Powers

 

While reading the Tipiṭaka I noticed several places in the Indriya Saṃyutta where the Buddha explicitly calls the paññā-indriya the agga (foremost) among the factors conducive to awakening. Since your post on the five faculties places a different emphasis, I wanted to share the key passages briefly.

SN 48.67 (and 48.68–70):
“Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, ye keci jambudīpakā rukkhā, jambū tesaṃ aggamakkhāyati; evameva kho, bhikkhave, ye keci bodhipakkhiyā dhammā, paññindriyaṃ tesaṃ aggamakkhāyati, yadidaṃ – bodhāya.”

SN 48.45:
“Ekassa kho, bhikkhave, indriyassa bhāvitattā bahulīkatattā khīṇāsavo bhikkhu aññaṃ byākaroti … Katamassa ekassa? Paññindriyassa. Paññavato, bhikkhave, ariyasāvakassa tadanvayā saddhā saṇṭhāti, tadanvayaṃ vīriyaṃ saṇṭhāti, tadanvayā sati saṇṭhāti, tadanvayo samādhi saṇṭhāti.”

SN 48.51 and SN 48.54 use similar comparisons (lion and elephant’s footprint) and again declare paññindriyaṃ … aggamakkhāyati.

In AN 5.16 the same point is made for the five powers:
“Imesaṃ kho, bhikkhave, pañcannaṃ balānaṃ etaṃ aggaṃ … yadidaṃ paññābalaṃ.”

The suttas also speak of balance, yet these passages clearly present paññā as the “master indriya”.

In light of this, the car simile on the page (with sati as the steering wheel and the other faculties as the wheels) might perhaps be adjusted to better reflect the special role of wisdom.

From my own experience, many people also want to be mindful in a worldly sense, yet continue to wander around in the world because wisdom is lacking. Thus it makes sense that wisdom is placed in the driver’s seat.

[Tobias G]

Hello Lal,

Can you please tell me in which section the post “Kusalamūla Paṭicca Samuppāda – Evidence Against It” is in?
I think it is still linked to the main page.

[Tobias G]

So ‘kamma‘ means actions, speech, and thoughts that are based on raga, dosa, moha or alobha, adosa, amoha, and with avijja. 

[Tobias G]

Dear Lal, you say:

1. In the Buddha Dhamma, ‘kamma‘ means actions, speech, and thoughts that are based on raga, dosa, or moha. Only those can lead to vipaka. 

• Thus, they include punna kamma, apunna kamma, and akusala kamma….

——————–

I thought punna kamma are done with alobha, adosa, amoha, and with avijja. Thus we have six roots leading to rebirth. Of course only akusala kamma leads to bad vipaka or downward path.

 

[Tobias G]

Can you please answer these questions?

Above, you say: “…sankhāra generation ALWAYS leads to kamma accumulation.”

Can one conclude from this that sankhara can only be performed with avijja and thus generate kamma (because: avijja paccaya sankhara)? 

That would mean sankhāra are always connected with avijja. Thus, someone thinking while doing vipassana in satipatthana bhumi does not generate sankhāra, right? Therefore, the general equation sankhāra = “50 cetasika” only applies when avijja is involved. Is that right?

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Saurabh@2110

[Tobias G]

Above you say: “…sankhāra generation ALWAYS leads to kamma accumulation.”

Can one conclude from this that sankhara can only be performed with avijja and thus generate kamma (because: avijja paccaya sankhara)? Then the general statement that the 50 cetasika (without sanna and vedana) are sankhara would be false.

It is certainly clear that asobhana cetasika lead to akusala sankhara/kamma, or rather, poor results.

Sobhana cetasika bring good results in the form of punna kamma or magga phala (when paññā cetasika is involved).

Punna kamma is still performed with avijja.

[Tobias G]

Dear honorable Lal, thank you for this draft and addressing my question! It gives a good overview and much clarity. 

Nevertheless, I would like to ask:

So are you saying that Vb 6 in the Abhidhamma Pitaka is incorrect and/or was added later?

Does that mean the Arahants were mistaken?

It is said that the 50 cetasikas, except for sanna and vedana, are “sankhara”. Some of these are universal and occasional cetasikas, such as jivitindriya, manasikāra, or viriya. How, then, could these lead to new kamma?

Furthermore, this text about cetasika says:

“Viriya (effort) can become Sammā Vāyāma.“

“Viriya and chanda are two factors in the four bases of mental power…”

“Saddhā (faith);  sati (moral mindfulness) can become Sammā Sati” 

 

How do you view the cetasikas of karunā and muditā?

 

I’m still grappling with the question of how one actually thinks without external sensory input and without distorted sanna, or rather, how one arrives at genuine kusala citta? If the mind has no external sensory input (no panca-dvara citta vithi), one can only think about dhammas. In this way, one can have contact with sadhamma and, with appropriate “paccaya,” generate kusala citta and ultimately realize magga phala (e.g., during meditation). Is that correct? But this also requires cetasika; yet it isn’t paṭicca samuppāda?

[Tobias G]

I’ve been thinking about why the Paṭicca Samuppāda (PS) process begins with avijjā, and this is the idea I’ve come up with:

Avijjā is the root cause and the highest saṁyojana for our journey through samsara. Furthermore, the purana kamma stage begins with attachment to the altered rupa (bahiddha viññāṇa) for every being below the Arahant stage because of the presence of saṁyojana (at least avijjā saṁyojana).

Both Arahants and puthujjanas experience kama sanna, or distorted perception. But the PS process begins only when there are remaining fetters. Therefore, avijjā is the minimum requirement for the start of Paṭicca Samuppāda. And the PS process applies to all sentient beings in samsara.

Ultimately, of course, all parts of Paṭicca Samuppāda cease to arise once Arahantship is attained.

[Tobias G]

This adds to the ideas above:  Consciousness Generates Space-Time

“In a controversial 2025 paper, a researcher proposed a theory that consciousness may give rise to matter …“

[Tobias G]

Thank you, Lal! I agree with what you say. Understanding kama-sanna is an addition that helps to establish anicca-sanna.

If Sanna is fundamentally 100% distorted and even an Arahant is constantly plagued by kamasanna, how can one become aware of the true nature? If we contact the world with our five senses, it will always fool us. People could also take the view that everything is illusion or simulation (natthi ayaṃ loko), so it doesn’t matter whether they purify their mind or not. Ultimately, the only remaining possibility is to develop wisdom and to realize the fruitlessness of existence (anatta).

[Tobias G]

Thanks for the explanation! After thinking about it I have a few points to be clarified:

You say: “Since the color (and the beauty or attractiveness) is associated with the external object, it would not be possible to lose cravings for it without getting rid of it or at least by totally avoiding it.”

–> This is probably the crucial point where we disagree. The seeker of truth must “see with wisdom” that the things of this world are anicca, meaning they cannot be permanently obtained in the way one desires (anicca). Why should this be prevented if things possess certain intrinsic qualities? Above all, we don’t know precisely how distorted perception really is. Or did the Buddha describe this in detail?

–> I completely agree with you when you say that the mind, through kama sanna, presents the outer world as “mirage”, adapted to the plane of existence. The ancient yogis were ignorant of the true nature of this world; that is, they were not aware of the Four Noble Truths. Therefore, the anicca-nature was unknown to them, and they maintained nicca sanna.

————————————–

There is still a contradiction in your description of the first stage of Ānāpānasati or to become a Sotapanna. See #2 in First Stage of Ānāpānasati – Seeing the Anicca Nature of ‘Kāya’:

• The first phase involves “seeing the anicca (unfruitful) nature of attaching to the pañcupādānakkhandha kāya to attain the Sotapanna stage. This step is only mentioned briefly in “Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118).” We will discuss this first stage in detail in this post. 
• In this stage, one focuses on the whole pañcupādānakkhandha kāya and how it is initiated. One must ‘see with wisdom’ that each time the pañcupādānakkhandha kāya is initiated, one’s mind moves away from Nibbāna. This is easily in the charts that we will discuss below.
• Ānāpāna is āna āpāna.In this stage, ‘āna‘ is to “take in/comprehend that the world (pañcupādānakkhandha) is fruitless or of anicca nature“, and ‘āpāna‘ is to “discard the wrong view that the pañcupādānakkhandha is beneficial or of nicca nature.”

vs. your reply above:

2. Once one understands that the color (and the beauty or attractiveness) is not in external objects, but is a mind-generated phenomenon, then one realizes that the craving for it can be lost. 

• That realization holds not only for color, but for all other ‘attractive features’ of sensory experiences. For example, ‘sweet taste of honey’ is not in honey, but is a mind-made illusion. I have discussed that in many posts.
• Once one’s mind fully grasps that fact, one’s mind would eliminate the three ‘diṭṭhi saṁyojana‘ of sakkāya diṭṭhi, vicikicchā, and silabbata parāmāsa, and one would attain the Sotapanna stage of Nibbāna. This fulfills the first stage of Ānāpānasati in the Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118).

–> I agree that the Sotapanna stage is reached by “seeing the unfruitfulness of attaching to the kāya”. I disagree that this already requires the understanding of kama sanna or that colors are not in external objects. That comes after Sotapatti is realised.

[Tobias G]

Yes, that is correctly stated. 

[Tobias G]

We can stay with discussion No. (ii).

I don’t care about Darwin’s theory either and how life evolved. What is the connection between anicca and mind-made colors? Perhaps you could also address my distinction above: colors in external things versus only mind-made colors.

Color-recognition is required to live a pleasureable life or life at all. Paticca Samuppada is the process to maintain samsara and hence bhava/jati. The six sense fields are established to enable contact/recognition and that in a way that bhava is supported and extended into the future via new kamma. Thus, our desire for contact and experience is baked into the ayatana, and this manifests as sanna vipallasa.

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