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- gain about Kamaguna, I don’t know what it depends on exactly, whether it is Dhātus or something else, but I know that all of us, you, I, etc., have created Kamaguna ourselves.
- Vatthu by Hadaya Vatthu rhymes with Dathu, so they have a connection.
Likewise Jhana and Bhavana. - Our spirit, i.e. Nama, exists through attachment to Rupa, in a manifestation as Namarupa, which in turn is in a generated manifestation through (abhi) -sankhara.
There is no universe, we live in Tilakkhana. Or rather, we live in anicca, dukkha, anatta. This should be understood. We are a manifestation within a manifestation and we continue to change this manifested entity. - And one thing I predict is that if there is an awakening in the next few years, it will be a collective, on the land surrounded by the seas. Just a feeling from me.
Sorry TGS for not getting back to you until now but the time difference and work.
“Can it be said that Kamaguna is a touch of Mara?”
Can you explain to me exactly what you mean by Kamaguna being a touch of Mara?I think. There are guna as, buddha guna, dhamma guna and sangha guna. These are all qualities that take us out of samsara. Kamagunna, on the other hand, are qualities that keep us trapped in samsara. Since Mara is also something that tries to keep us in samsara, I made the connection to Kamaguna. Since Kamaguna is subjective and presents itself as a natural law in the background, I formulated it somewhat superficially.
Hello Lal,
this post was written because I wanted to know what jhanic sukha means. I was not familiar with the term until then.
#45478
“P.S. “Rupa raga” includes, but is not limited to, jhanic sukha; ” Adherence to the Dhamma” is also contained in the Rupa Raga”
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To analyze Ruparaga and Kārmaguna, I will use the approach via the Jhānas.
Even at the time of the Buddha, other ascetic traditions considered any kind of pleasure as something to be avoided, but after performing painful asceticism, such as that performed by the 5 ascetics before the Buddha’s awakening, the Bodhisattva discovered pleasure, even a certain type of pleasure, which is an important mental and physical factor in purifying and freeing the mind from attachment.It was at this time that the Bodhisatta became aware. That the end of the spiritual path is achieved through pleasure and not pain, which involves a certain type of physical pleasure and spiritual joy.
However, everyone agreed that sensual pleasures must be abandoned. To get to liberation.
Meditative jhānic states with breathing meditation only to suppress sensory perception should be avoided. Since they are temporary.
Jhānic states should be achieved through knowledge, wisdom (pañña).
Whether with breathing meditation or wisdom, the misunderstanding that is not present in the experience of the Jhānas is the movement of desire, the very inner movement in which sensory objects grasp and captivate the mind.Both terms Bhavana and Jhāna mean meditation, in the deeper sense Bhavana means cultivation and Jhāna means immersion that is produced by strong concentration/samadhi.
Kāma and Kāmaguna as well as Rupa Raga are related and are always related to the Rupa and Kāma Loka. Kāmaguna is always dependent on the Kāmi stage of rebirth and also anusaya, which makes Kāmaguna seem subjective.
In order to enter the first Jhāna, one must clearly recognize the danger in Kāma. The practitioner, when he enters the first Jhāna and dwells in it, is indeed separated from the attachment and desire for sensual pleasures, that is, the basic tendency of ordinary perception (M I 504), and not from sensory experience. The separation from desire and attachment to sensual pleasures and other unwholesome states of mind must result from insight into the nature of Tilakkhana, i.e. anicca, dukkha, anatta, and understanding of the four noble truths. The desire for sensual pleasures is a basic tendency of an un-liberated mind that sees sensual pleasures as satisfying and desirable.
I have not been able to find anything in any description of the first Jhāna that mentions that one is separated from the Indriyas, the āyatanas associated with the five senses, or from the Kāma-Guṇas, so it is safe to say that one assumes that one is cut off from the sensory experience during this period by a deepening of the mind (samadhi). Kāmaguna are the five objects of the senses, they are the cause of the emergence of desire, hatred and delusion. Kāmaguna are the qualities of sensual pleasure, they exist with strong and weak qualities that can lead to attachment, a kind of natural subjective bondage and influence on sensory experiences from Mara’s world.
Chat GPT:(M I 504)
The sutta you are looking for is the Mahāsatipaṭṭhānasutta (The Great Discourse on the Basics of Mindfulness), which is contained in the Majjhima Nikāya (The Medium-Length Speeches). It is the 10th speech in this collection and begins on page 504 of the Pali Text Society’s Volume I12.
In this sutta, the Buddha teaches the four basics of mindfulness: the body, the feelings, the mind, and the spiritual objects. He explains how to observe them in meditation and how they lead to the realization of the four noble truths12.
END ChatGPTBinoculars Analogy: Meditation is like using binoculars. The binoculars are the mind and the object in our case is a “bhikkhu explaining a Dhamma concept”. Listening carefully to the bhikkhu is like pointing binoculars (mind) at an object, the more attentive we are, the sharper the image in binoculars becomes. We focus with the adjusting wheel on the binoculars, up to the point where the image is totally sharp, that is Samadhi. The eight magnification levels that binoculars possess are the Jhāna steps. Each level also has a better movement stabilizer, which is shown by calming the mind the higher one is on the Jhāna level.
We only need the first 4 stages for a Dhamma concept. By zooming in on the object, we let the mind in this case cling to the Dhamma concept. Which causes the bad Ditthis to dissolve and we understand the concept clearly. Unpacking the binoculars and removing the protective caps is equivalent to removing the obstacles (nīvaraṇas).
To reach the first jhanas. The mind must also be cleansed of the obstacles (Nīvaraṇas). Jhānic sukha has an important role on the path to liberation and it also helps to overcome the craving for sensual pleasures (kāma raga), which is one of the ten fetters (samyojana). It prepares the mind for the development of wisdom (pañña), which arises from insight into the three characteristics of all phenomena (anicca, dukkha, anatta).cetaso upakkilese paññāya dubbalīkaraṇe (Lal, how would you translate this phrase that occurs in many suttas in connection with meditation/mindfulness?)
Suttas: The Sampasādanīyasutta (DN 28) / Devadahasutta (MN101) and many more.
The five “nīvaraṇas” hinder the clear recognition of the nature of experience, which hinder the acquisition of knowledge and insight. There are five: (i) sensual desire (kāmacchanda), (ii) hatred (vyāpāda), (iii) sluggishness and drowsiness (thīna-middha), (iv) excitability and fear (uddhaccakukkucca), and (v) doubt (vicikicchā). It is impossible to enter the trance states or attain liberation if these obstacles are not overcome. A mind that is not cleansed of these obstacles cannot see clearly.
Jhānic sukha is a term that refers to the happiness or joy experienced in the states of deepening (jhāna). Jhāna are meditative states in which the mind becomes calm, focused, and clear. There are four subtle jhānas (rupa jhāna) and four formless jhānas (arupa jhāna), which differ in their factors and objects.
Jhānic sukha is one of the factors of the first jhānas, along with initial and sustained thinking (vitakka and vicara), joy (piti) and one-pointedness or concentration (ekaggata). Sukha is the psychological counterpart of piti, the physical feeling of bliss or intoxication. Sukha is a feeling of contentment, well-being and gratitude. You don’t need anything more than what prevails in the present moment. One is free from physical or mental pain (dukkhaṃ domanassaṃ) or pleasure (sukhaṃ somanassaṃ) associated with the desire for sensual pleasures (kāmūpasaṃhitaṃ)
Jhānic sukha disappears in the second jhāna, where only piti and ekaggata remain.
In the third jhāna, piti also disappears, leaving only ekaggata and a feeling of equanimity (upekkha).
In the fourth jhāna, upekkha also disappears, and only ekaggata remains.The formless jhānas no longer have any factors, but only different objects: infinite space, infinite consciousness, nothingness and neither perception nor non-perception.
Jhānicpīti (spiritual joy) and Sukha (physical pleasures) are the key elements for deciphering in order to understand the path to liberation. These two factors (nīrāmisa pīti and nīrāmisa sukha) that characterize the first and second jhāna (pīti is also one of the initial factors of the third jhāna), pleasure and joy are thus the factors that involve neither desire nor attachment. On the contrary, they can only arise by encountering the world of phenomena without attachment. When one recognizes the true nature of Tilakkhana of phenomena, that is, the unreliability, fruitlessness and lack of substantiality of all phenomena, Jhānicpīti and Sukha are born.
In addition, it is the attainment of jhānicpīti and sukha that allows the mind to completely abandon the desire for sensual pleasures (kāmacchanda) and the latent tendency (anusaya) to seek this kind of pleasure.
Thus, the teachings of the Buddha Gotama were a rejection of asceticism and also of other ideas and practices, such as those taught by Āḷāra Kālāma and Uddaka Rāmaputta.
However, Jhānic pīti (and sukha) are not cut off from sensory experience independently of the five sensory fields of sensual pleasure, since they arise from the clear recognition of the danger of sensory satisfaction. When one recognizes the danger and true nature of sensual pleasures, one can enjoy experiences without unwholesome states of mind such as clinging, aversion, etc. From this it can be deduced that sensory contact can take place without desire, pleasure and aversion, even before reaching awakening and over a longer period of time and not just as a momentary experience.
I would argue that this happens during the experience of the Jhānic states. The experience of phenomena without these falsifications of the mind enables the mind to find pleasure, not in sensual pleasures, but by recognizing the true nature of the phenomena of this world with its 31 realms.
Samphassa-jā-vēdanā are spirit-made feelings that result from attachment to or aversion to a sensory object. They are not the result of kamma vipāka, but of taṇhā (thirst) and upādāna (clinging).
For example, when one sees a friend, one may have a feeling of joy, which is a samphassa-jā-vēdanā. When one sees an enemy, one can have a feeling of hatred, which is also a samphassa-jā-vēdanā. When you see someone you don’t know, you can have a neutral feeling, which is also a samphassa-jā-vēdanā.
Samphassa-jā-vēdanā are mind-made feelings that are produced with the five aggregates “rupa, vedanā, saññā, saṅkhāra and viññāṇa” with PS. We do not cling to “physical objects”, but to our “spiritual impressions” or “rūpakkhandha”, which are stored as pañcakkhandha in the Namagotta.Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhu viññāṇaṃ, tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso, phassa paccayā vedanā” are only part of the more general statement “saḷāyatana paccayā phasso; phassapaccayā vedanā what Samphassa-jā-vēdanā is…
In my opinion, the first four Jhānas are capable of “Samphassa-jā-vēdanā” to delete/overwrite these storages, which are based on the three types of vedanā and are stored in the pañcakkhandha in the Namagotta.
Thus, the first Jhāna points the way to awakening/ahrant-hood and awakening is the elimination of Gati, Anusaya, asava, Tanha….which includes Samphassa-jā-vēdanā. So Jhānas are used to remove impurities and are related to Ja-vedanā.
Bing(ChatGPT);”
• The sutta you are looking for is the Mahāsaccakasutta (The Greater Discourse to Saccaka), which is contained in the Majjhima Nikāya (The Medium-Length Discourses). It is the 36th speech in this collection and begins on page 246 of the Pali Text Society’s Volume I12.
• In this sutta, the Buddha tells of his quest for enlightenment, his struggles with the five obstacles and the five aggregates, his attainment of the four jhānas and the four noble truths, and his challenge to Saccaka, the son of a nigaṇṭha (Jaina), who tries to refute him12.
End ChatGPT”
According to the Jain ascetics;
Pleasure cannot be gained by pleasure; Joy can be gained through pain (sukhena sukhaṃ adhigantabbaṃ, dukkhena kho sukhaṃ adhigantabbaṃ). For if joy could be obtained through pleasure, then King Seniya Bimbisāra of Magadha would attain joy, as he dwells in greater joy than Venerable Gotama.The Sutta Cūḷadukkhakkhandhasutta (The Shorter Discourse on the Mass of Suffering), which is contained in the Majjhima Nikāya (The Medium-Length Speeches). It is the 14th speech in this collection
But the Buddha told Klar that he remains in bliss longer and is therefore more fortunate than the Jain ascetics. So it is up to Jhānicpīti and sukha, which goes hand in hand with the calmness of the mind. But this only applies in the Kama and Rupa areas, where the beings have sensory pleasure.
However, jhānicpīti (and sukha) are independent of the five strands of sensory pleasure (but not cut off from sensory experience), since it arises from the clear recognition of the danger of sensory satisfaction. Jhāna are like tools, used incorrectly they do more harm than good.
Jhānas 5 to 8 are certainly to be used for the removal of the “attachment to the formlessness Arupa Loka”.
There is no need to be afraid if one has cultivated Anariya Jhānas. Since, in my opinion, Jhāna is not cultivated, but used to cultivate certain Citta, Cetasika and pañcakkhandha, which only becomes noticeable in the Pathisandhi moment. Cultivation without proper purification and understanding of Dhamma is therefore the use of Anariya Jhāna <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
So, with the right understanding of Pure Dhamma, we can free ourselves from these attachments and states of mind. In which, with the help of the Jhānas, we cultivate the right Dhamma/Dhammā, which reduces the attachment to this world with its 31 realms, which even leads to the detachment of the Buddhadhamma when attaining Ahranthood.Not quite.
The Buddha surprisingly said; “Even if a noble disciple has insight into the true nature of sensual pleasures, this insight is not sufficient to make the mind feel disillusioned and disenchanted by sensory satisfaction and to abandon aversion to its transgression or abandonment. It is not enough to know how things really are in order to achieve liberation.(SN 35.28)
That is, “wisdom” (paññā) and “clear vision” (sudiṭṭhaṃ) of (experience) “as it is” (yathābhūtaṃ) cannot completely transform the mind.
According to this Sutta, the cognitive ability is not sufficient to eradicate the tendencies of desire. We need the arūpa samāpatti, those who are considered to be the four recesses of the Incorporeal Sphere. They are an extension of the four depressions of the Fine Body Sphere (rūpa-jjhāna) and are sometimes referred to as the fifth to eighth depressions. The arūpa samāpatti are achieved through meditation on the absence of physicality and form, leading to a state of complete calm and stillness. They dissolve the “I” illusion and are seen as a means of overcoming suffering and achieving Nibbāna.Could you say that Kamaguna is a touch of Mara?
Could it be that with Jhana Bhavana, we are trying to emit/produce a “pabhassara citta”?
I hope I’m not so far off the mark and “I’ve hit the nail on the head” as we say. In any case, I hope for a lot of comments whether negative or positive, but even the negative ones will have a positive effect. To get more insight into the Dhamma that has not been heard in this world before.
Hello Lal,
Supplement, answer to post #40356 Number 3
I would like it if your analogy with the chair lit by a candle, the dark room and the flashlight used a phosphorescence instead of the candle: So the chair has a phosphorescence. Thus dhammā would be equated with phosphorescence. So the more kamma viññāṇa was involved, the longer the chair glows. You can see him until the energy fades. He’s still there after fading but we can’t see him. Or you can recall him again by shining a flashlight on him. The flashlight then stands for the fact that the mind sends a request to nāmalōka. The strength of the request is then decisive for the afterglow of the chair………back with…(mananca paticca dhammeca uppajjati mano vinnanam)
For those who don’t want to google for phosphorescence. Phosphorescence is the property of a substance that glows in the dark after exposure to (visible or UV) light. The cause of phosphorescence is the radiative deactivation of the excited atoms and molecules
Yes, I talked above about two 100% identical streams of life and whether they are in one place… I am sorry
The Mind is the forerunner of all that is. The mind(viññāna/citta) is the master……
#45014
So, Answer is yes.Because, hadaya vatthu has spatial location, so, consequently citta will also have spatial location, right?
No, I say: Namarupa ……….viññāna/citta, requires Hadaya Vatthu/1x Suddhatthaka, but determines the location of Hadaya Vatthu..
#45016
Yes. Where the hadaya vatthu is, that is where cittas arise.If you go to the Moon, your cittas will arise at that location on the Moon because that is where your physical body and hadaya vatthu (located in the manomaya kaya within the body) will be.
Suppose you had developed abhinna powers and had attained the ability to come out of the physical body with the manomaya kaya and travel with the manomaya kaya (this is called “astral travel” nowadays.) Then you can even leave the physical body on the Moon and travel to Earth with your manomaya kaya and your cittas will arise wherever you are on Earth.YES, this statement is correct insofar as the birth is complete. As long as paṭisandhi is not included.
“kammā vipāka vaḍḍhanti, vipāko kamma sambhavo”
“Tasmā punabbhovo hoti, evan loko pavattati”
The last citta vithi of the old life arises in the ancient hadaya vatthu and it will go through its course of 17 cittās, including the last two Tadārammana or “registration” (T) cittās, after the seven javana cittās.Cuti or death is not a citta. It is the death of the Hadaya Vatthu of the old life. Cuti, or the death of the ancient hadaya vatthu, happens immediately after the last citta vithi, and the cuti citta is in the last citta vithi. Paṭisandhi citta grasps the gati of the new bhava.
So Citta is in charge of the place. Hadaya Vatthu serves only as an underground.
Citta = nama decides and Hadaya Vatthu with 1x Suddhatthaka = Rupa
It’s a loop but Citta or the ghost decides….I think I found the solution myself.
Thank you Dear Lal…….for all that I learn from you.
P.s. or I didn’t interpret the questions and answers correctly….
Mh, I can’t say whether the question was understood correctly, because the question is very abstract to obscure and I expected a different answer. That is why I am going to rephrase.
1. So when two life streams experience rebirth at the same time, with 100% of the same impurities, kamma energy, every rupa and experience from the past, etc., everything is completely the same. Would the Hadaya Vatthu be found in the same place? This is actually not possible and very abstract.
2. So, the Total Impurities, such as Anusaya, Gati, Kamma Vipaka, Kamma Bija, etc., are responsible for where we are born in space and that in the whole universe?
3. Or is the location in the room only due to Kamma Vipaka?
4. What determines the position of Hadaya Vatthu after birth, in space…..
5. You can also divide the worlds and location according to Citta.
Città according to worlds division
Consciousness classes
54 54 of the sensory sphere,
15 15 of the Fine Body Sphere,
12 12 of the Incorporeal Sphere,
8 40 of the Overworldly Sphere;
89 121 all worldsThe impurities determine the thinking (Citta) and the thought from the past also respectively . The produced Kamma viññāna & Vipaka viññāna…
In short, Citta determines the location, right?
Thank you, Lal, for the explanations!
Yes, that’s understood! Hadaya Vatthu with a Suddhastthaka as a subsoil is needed for the emergence of viññāna/Citta.
1. But if one now asks, are all Hadaya Vatthu different?
2. And if YES, therefore in different places! Because of the connection to Anusaya, Nāmagotta, kamma bija, dhammā etc. in the viññāna dhātu. Definitely in Akasa Dathu and also in Arupa Loka!3. But if two Hadya Vatthu were exactly the same to 100%, including the mental impurities, simply everything.
4. Would one then be in the same place?
5. Do the different impurities lead to a spatial separation?
6. Or is it as simple as saying that every Hadaya Vatthu is the same but in different places?If question 5 is YES, that would make the most sense to me at the moment! And if there are no impurities present, thus no grasping, the mind (viññāna/Citta) would be placed on Nibbana dhātu.
Hello…….
According to what I could find, Hadaya Vatthu is formed by kamma in the patisandhi moment in the arupa loka together with Pasāda Rupa (C, S, G, J-Vatthus), where Pasāda Rupa do not necessarily have to arise with it. So Hadaya Vatthu itself is considered the lowest rupa and they did not bother to call it Hadaya Vatthurupa because in the word Vatthu, the Vatthurupa is included. Because if Hadaya Vatthu did not have the connection to Vatthurupa, the statement that the world consists of 28 types of rupa would not be correct.
Hadaya Vatthu is therefore considered the absolute basis as a fundamental rupa for Nama+Rupa in all 31 realms………..
Sādhu, Sādhu, Sādhu….
I’m sorry, I’ve been sitting here poring over this for 17 hours and my head is very tired now. Again, Venerable Lal, heartfelt and respectful thanks for your efforts.
I had just fallen asleep when another thought came to me. So PC back on…
So until the last 5 Arupa realms, everything is clear.
Hadaya Vatthu houses the Mind Consciousness Element, which has 75 Citta, and the Mind Element, which has 4 Citta. Now, when I say that the Arupa Loka refers only to the absence of Gandhabba.
And that Hadaya stands for Mind Element, which is connected to 4 Cittas in Arupa Loka and that is the only Rupa.
- Vatthu means physical basis, i.e. the six physical organs on which the mental process is based
- Hadaya = Mind Element = 4 Citta together
- So together Hadaya Vatthu
- Asannasatta: The world of unconscious beings has Hadaya Vatthu / Mind Element (ME), which has 4 citta who are in a bhavanga state. They have no Aramanna for the creation of a citta.
- But I say the 5 Arupa Loka are special.
So for me it would fit like this……..
Hello Lal I have more questions too #44559
Please can you give me the reference for my studies for the statement.:” Città cannot be created without Rupa. An Arupi Brahma has the smallest rupa, hadaya vatthu.” To give?
Uppapatibhavana is a Pali term that means “rebirth” or “reappearance”. It is one of the two kinds of bhava (existence or becoming) that condition the cycle of birth and death (samsara). The other kind is kammabhava (action or volition) . Uppapatibhavana refers to the actual arising of a being in a particular realm of existence according to its kamma. There are thirty-one realms of existence in Buddhist cosmology, divided into three main categories: the sense realm (kamaloka), the form realm (rupaloka) and the formless realm (arupaloka). Uppapatibhavana is also used as a synonym for jati (birth), which is one of the twelve links of dependent origination (paticcasamuppada)
I see it this way, that in the Upayasutta SN 22.53 the departure from the Kamaloka is described and not a Brahma realm (Arupa Loka). That is why the Buddha also left us a gap in the Upaya Sutta. The one I see there, is: (1.6)
SN 22.53 / 1.6
Or as long as consciousness remains, it would remain involved with choices, supported by choices, grounded on choices. And with a sprinkle of relishing, it would grow, increase, and mature.saṅkhārupayaṁ vā, bhikkhave, viññāṇaṁ tiṭṭhamānaṁ tiṭṭheyya, saṅkhārārammaṇaṁ saṅkhārappatiṭṭhaṁ nandūpasecanaṁ vuddhiṁ virūḷhiṁ vepullaṁ āpajjeyya.
It is the before … the kamma that occurs in the patisandhi moment and is connected with bhavatanha, leads to the citta resting in the asannasatta. Vinnana is present. But it does not need rupa to be localized because there is not even a Space Element there. The localization of vinnana/citta in the kamaloka is done by kama-generated rupa. It is placed in the gandhabba by the arrangement of the rupas.
For example, cakkhu-viññana has Pasada Rupa as its basis and can therefore be localized in the region of our eye.
Lal said: That quoted verse can be improved as “Without accompanied by rupa, vedana, saññā, and saṅkhārāra, the establishment, growth, or the movement of viññāṇa is not possible.
Who says that rupa is needed in the arupa loka, where there is no rupa, one does not need sanna, vedana and sankahra. Sankahra one does to counteract abhisankahra and to reach the arupa realms or at least not to form new kamma for it. It does not go higher, these are already the highest realms. This is the absolute bliss, these are the highest jhanic states. There vinnana/citta is not locally bound. There nama is so strong that it can generate rupa in large quantities. It is more like a bhavanga state.
Sorry… but your explanations do not convince me yet. Please more_/|\_/|\_/|\_
Hallo… Lal and TripleGemStudent, Saket
#44552 Where?
I don’t know for sure either, maybe in the comments. But I know,Kamma Bija is a term that means kamma seed or kammic potential. It is the energy or potential to bring about an effect in the future due to a kamma (volitional action) that was committed in the past. Kamma Bija is not a physical entity, but a mental phenomenon that is stored in the mind realm (mano loka). Kamma Bija can be moral or immoral, depending on the nature of the kamma that generated it.Kamma seeds are not eternal, but they can last for a very long time, depending on the strength and nature of the kamma that generated them. Some kamma seeds can bring results only in this life or the next life, while others can bring results in future lives until they are exhausted or nullified by other kamma seeds. The Abhidhamma Pitaka, which is a part of the Buddhist Pali Canon that provides a systematic and philosophical explanation of the teachings of the Buddha, does not give a specific time for when kamma seeds lose their effect, but it classifies kamma into four types by time of ripening:
- immediately effective (ditthadhammavedaniya)
- subsequently effective (upapajjavedaniya)
- indefinitely effective (aparapariyavedaniya)
- and ineffective (ahosi) kamma.
or see Links #44553
Arupa Loka and Hadaya Vatthu
Hadaya Vatthu is a term meaning the seat of the mind or heart base. It is a type of rupa (material form) that resides in the physical heart and serves as the basis for all types of consciousness (citta) except for the five sense consciousnesses (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body) which are their own Having bases (pasada rupa) in the corresponding sense organs.
Hadaya vatthu is considered rupa because it is a physical phenomenon that arises and ceases due to various causes such as kamma, citta, utu (temperature) and ahara (food). It is not the same as the physical heart, but it is closely related.Hadaya Vatthu is one of the 28 types of Rupa classified in the Abhidhamma.
Hadaya Vatthu is present only in the worlds where there is rupa, not in the arupa loka (immaterial worlds). According to the Abhidhamma, there are five arupa loka in which Hadaya Vatthu is not present: Arupa loka is the world of immaterial beings composed only of citta and cetasika (mental factors), without rupa (material form). There are five Arupa Loka corresponding to the five Arupa Jhanas.- Akasanancayatana: the world of infinite space perception
- Vinnanancayatana: the world of infinite consciousness perception
- Akincannayatana: the world of nothingness perception
- N’evanasannanasannayatana: the world of neither perception nor non-perception
- Asannasatta: the world of unconscious beings
In these worlds, there are only 12 types of Citta: four are jhanic moral Citta, arising from the practice of Arupa Jhanas, and four are vipaka Citta, arising from the result of these Jhanas. The other four are bhavanga Citta, representing the base state of the mind. These Citta are very subtle and pure, but not liberating. To attain Nibbana, one has to come out of Arupa Loka and attain the four stages of Magga Phala.
I take an example here, Asannasatta in Arupa Loka where there is no Hadaya Vatthu. To get there, one would have to attain the 4th Jhana with Citta viraga Bhavana, which is done without panna (wisdom). The generated Kamma energy leads to Arupa-Jhanas. It is a detachment from consciousness.
Citta viraga Bhavana is a type of meditation that aims to free the consciousness (citta) from attachment (raga). It is a form of insight meditation (vipassana) that contemplates the three characteristics of existence (anicca, dukkha, anatta) and realizes the true nature of all phenomena. Citta viraga Bhavana helps to see the Lakkana of all conditioned things and thereby overcome greed (lobha), hatred (dosa) and ignorance (moha), which are the causes of suffering. Citta viraga Bhavana leads to wisdom (panna), purity (visuddhi) and liberation (nibbana).
In Asannasatta one is without consciousness (like in a coma) but still has Bhavatanha. It is called an existence without Nama and lasts as long as the Kamma energy is exhausted. So without Citta, Cetasika, Gati and cannot trigger Anusaya. It is a Bhavanga state of mind formed in the Patisandhi moment that does not trigger Citta. So one cannot make any statement about the presence of Gati, Anusaya there but only say it is not triggered. In this realm one is only held by Bhavatanha. And Dhamma could be seen as the natural law of the world with its 31 realms.
Bhavata manga is a Pali term that literally means “the striving for existence”. It is a form of bhava tanha, the attachment to existence or becoming. It is one of the causes of suffering (dukkha) in Theravada, as it maintains the cycle of rebirth (samsara). In Abhidhamma, bhavata manga is a type of cetasika (mental factor) that arises with and influences the consciousness (citta). It is one of the four types of abhisankhara (volitional formations) caused by ignorance (avijja). It is also one of the ten types of anusaya (latent tendencies) mentioned in the Dhammasangani, one of the books of the Abhidhamma-Pitaka.
Gati/Gathi are the saṁsāric habits or tendencies of a being, shaped by his kammic tendencies (anusaya) and attachments (āsava). Gati determine the way a being reacts to different situations, and influence his moral or immoral actions (kamma). Gati are also associated with the cetasika (mental factors) that arise in each thought (citta). The cetasika can be good (sobhana), bad (asobhana) or neutral, depending on whether they are connected with wisdom (paññā) or ignorance (avijjā). Gati are thus the deeply rooted habits that shape our thoughts and deeds. They can change over time, if one makes an effort to overcome the bad gati and cultivate the good gati. The liberation from all gati that do not lead to Nibbana is the way.
Anusaya are latent tendencies or dispositions, regarded as one of the sources of impurities (kilesa). They are defilements that lie “along with” (anusenti) the mental process to which they belong, and arise as obsession whenever they meet with suitable conditions. There are seven types of anusaya: sensuality (kama), existence (bhava), non-existence (vibhava), view (ditthi), doubt (vicikiccha), conceit (mana) and ignorance (avijja). Anusaya is also discussed in relation to other concepts such as kamma, paticcasamuppada, citta and cetasika. The substratum or basis of anusaya is the bhavanga citta, which represents the base state of the mind. The bhavanga citta is the result of the kamma citta that arose at the end of the previous life. It is the citta that flows during sleep or between the perceptions of sense objects. It is also the citta that ceases at the end of the present life.
Appatigha rupa is a type of rupa (material form). It means the form that cannot be touched or the form that does not collide with other forms. It is one of the 16 types of sukhuma rupa (fine form), which are different from the 12 types of olarika rupa (gross form). The sukhuma rupa are also anupadinna rupa (non-appropriated form), which are different from the 18 types of upadinna rupa (appropriated form). Appatigha rupa are the finest external forms, which can only be perceived by the mind (mana), not by the five physical senses (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body). They are also called dhamma, because they only exist as mental objects. Appatigha rupa are also anidassana rupa (invisible form), because they do not reflect or absorb light. Appatigha rupa are the forms that exist in the arupa loka (immaterial worlds), where there is only consciousness and mental factors, but no material form.
Citta is thus called consciousness and consciousness is not localizable in the infinite invisible space, not even in the Arupa Loka. It has no location in the immaterial Loka. It pervades space at the lowest level. I have also not been able to find in any Sutta or other scriptures that Sammasambuddha would have claimed otherwise. (Maybe in the commentaries) + (If yes please post here) Consciousness cannot be defined spatially, it is very special and depends on space. It is only assumed philosophically and during meditation in the heart region (description in Abhidhamma, visuddhimagga, etc.) and only applies to the realms with Rupa and these are Rupa Loka, Kama Loka and Apayas where a Gandhabba (Manomaya Kaya) is present. (Vatthu can be found in the scriptures as well as Hadaya in the commentaries but not as Hadaya Vatthu).
To the question: #44543
So no Hadaya Vatthu in Arupa Loka.The kamma that was generated in the last life with Citta viraga Bhavana acts in the Patisandhi moment and creates the bhavanga state in Arupa Loka.
The definition of Dhamma is missing according to which Dhamma, but there is Dhamma in Arupa Loka. Without Dhamma no universe! Gati is present just like anusaya but does not come into play.
- In the following 2 realms only Nama exists without Rupa.
1. Akasanancayatana: the world of infinite space perception
2. Vinnanancayatana: the world of infinite consciousness perception - In the last 3 realms there is neither Nama nor Rupa but the mind is only present. Because there is still residual kamma in the form of Bhavatanha.
3. Akincannayatana: the world of nothingness perception
4. N’evanasannanasannayatana: the world of neither perception nor non-perception
5. Asannasatta: the world of unconscious beings - So one can see that even in the last 3 realms Arahanthood is not attained. Otherwise Namarupa would not be present, it is only suppressed.
Life is Namarupa……………Nibbana is No Namarupa……
Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu…………
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Oh, sorry…. I found another error in my explanation. I exchanged the mental body for the physical body.
Cittajarupa the connection between Gandhabba and the physical body!
Cittajarupa distribute and arrange themselves in gandhabba. From the patisandhi moment to the finished adult human. Through the influence of the physical body. The blueprint of the physical body is DNA. These cittajarupa are related to the patisandhi citta, in the hadyavatthu and in the pancakkhandha, the heart base. But are not generated by patisandhi citta. The patisandhi citta produces the heart base where pancavokara bumi is also present.
The base of the heart has Hadayavatthu as its base. The base of the heart is connected at the lowest level with 79 cittas of the 89 or 121 cittas.
Of these, 75 are citta manoviññāṇa responsible for the production of cittajarupa, kamajarupa. Kamajarupa always arise because kamma viññāṇa are always mano viññāṇa. On the other hand, mano viññāṇa can be either vipāka viññāṇa or kamma viññāṇa.
There are no cittajarupa in ArupaLoka, only 4 vipaka cittas associated with 10 citta viññāṇa contained in the 79 cittas.
The heart base is the basis for citta and has been influenced by the patisandhi citta in the patisandhi moment and this heart base in turn influences citta/consciousness. This is how you can feel Kilesa associatively on a heart basis.
Those cittajarupa that have the underlying vayo dhatu accumulated throughout the gandhabba arise and affect (anubhava) the manomaya kaya and physical body and vice versa.Lol. Nevertheless, thank you for your answer.
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LG Tobi
