[sybe07]

I can see there is a longing for perfection. A longing that anything goes well and stays well. It is a longing that is born from anxiety and delusion (unrealistic view of life). Scared for this life with it’s characteristics of sudden change, instabililty, decay, sickness, death, pain, confusion. Insecure in an unsafe world.

This insecurity and longing for safetey drives us to control the conditioned. When anything goes to wish, then that comes with a feeling of security, of control, of happiness.

In the need to control, i am at the end of the scared ones, the anxious, always worried about things going wrong, with myself, others, parents, material stuf etc. I also feel life becomes more and more complicated and unsafe. Having a bank-account is unsafe, nowadays hackers try to steal your money. Hospitals cannot function without computers. It can go wrong anytime with anything. This sense of vulnerability is always present within me.

In the end i cannot rely on anything in the world. So my fear/anxiety is not really wrong, it is not unrealistic, but it is afcourse a burden.

Seeing this, and really making a change is a very very big difference, i know from experience. One can see that it is a mission impossible to seek for safety in the world, and still long very much for control. One can tell oneself over and over again about the truths of anicca, dukkha and anatta, but emotionally one has still this strong need for safety, refuge, craving for safety.

I wonder what you think, but i think that without any sense of an already present perfection/stability/refuge inside us, how can one ever make this change?

Siebe

[sybe07]

Lal said: “Now, when a human who can attain a jhana dies, he/she WILL BE born in a brahma realm (according to which jhanic state it is)”

does this not depend on the moment of death? maybe one can attain jhana but still at death not attain jhana and experiece fear and panic?

Siebe

[sybe07]

Explaining differences among Sotapanna, Sakadagami’s etc. Lal said:

“Those are just differences in understanding of the true nature of this world (anicca, dukkha, anatta, asubha, rogata,etc, where the most important first three are called Tilakkhana)”.

Isn’t it true there is also a difference, yet, in understanding the unconditioned, Nibbana?

From a teacher i understood Nibbana may not be called nicca, sukha and atta as opposed to anicca, dukkha and anatta, because Nibbana cannot be described in a conventional way, or by using conventional terms.

What do you think?

Siebe

[sybe07]

I belief, there is a misunderstanding going on.

What we call world, samsara, existence is always changing. Everything in the world or of this existence can be categorised as rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana. The Buddha instructed his student to see this world or existence, these nama’s and rupa’s, as it actually is; this is not mine, not who i am, not myself. We are not the khandha’s.

Next to this existence, which is always changing, which is anicca, dukkha and anatta there is reality. Reality is the one that does not change, it is nicca, sukha and atta. It is called Nibbana, the unconditioned.This does not arise, not vanish and does not change in the meantime (AN3.47)

Now we have the break with the pattern that we think we are sankhara, vedana, sanna, rupa and vinnana, including gati. In many lifes we made the mistake that we are these conditioned processes. So regarding these processes there has arisen a sense of me over many many lifes. This is the real problem we have to solve!

We are not the khandha’s. That’s the main message of the Buddha. This is complelety in line with the sutta’s.

Why can we make a refuge of ourselves? Because when one knows and sees the Dhamma one knows and sees no change, one sees nicca, sukha and atta, Nibbana. One knows that in the end this is ones one true nature, reality.

So when one sees the truth, Dhamma, one at the same times glimpes the truth that rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana are not really ‘me”.

So in the end there is safety within us, there is sukha, there is refuge, and it is there all the time,even in the phase of the worldling, because Nibbana does not arise and cease. How can Nibbana not be there? Nibbana is not caused by the Buddha, but discovered and realised. This realisation process means removing all adventitious defilement until one has become the unconditioned in true sense.

Siebe

[sybe07]

please do not take it personal ynot. i will end participating the forum.
that’s the best. best wishes,

Siebe

[sybe07]

When you are really honest you will admit that you can see that your body changed during time, that your habits have changed during time, maybe your temper etc, but if you are truthful you will see there is something that has not changed at all, you.

It is like being without a headacke or with. When the headacke disappears that is a big relief but at the same time you have the sanna that it was the same person who had the headacke and is without.

Please, do not ignore the fact that there is a sense of me which is constant over time. I think the Buddha refered to it as Asmi mana, one of the deepest rooted defilements. But please do not ignore this sense of me and do not suggest i am the only deluded person who has this sense of an unaltered and unchanging Me.

Siebe

[sybe07]

I belief the unconditioned is the stable. Is the unconditioned not in this world? Well, the Buddha embodied the unconditioned in this world. His mind was freed of conditions like tanha, lobha, dosa, moha, asava, avijja en he was in this world.

What does it mean the unconditioned is not of this world? It means mind freed from conditions does not get involved in anything it experiences, it is unattached. This can be called ‘not in this world anymore’. Our minds, still with conditions, becomes part of this world any moment via paticca samupadda. It gets involved via tanha in what it experiences. At that moment it becomes part of the world. When this does not happen mind without conditions does not become part of this world and can be called ‘not of this world’.

With the uncondioned no arising can be seen, no changing, no vanishing (AN3.47). The natural result of removing conditions is the unconditioned, just like pure gold is de natural result of removing defilements in gold.
Nobody, also not the Buddha created the unconditioned. What he did was removing conditions. The uncondioned is the unconstructed. It is not constructed due to practising buddhims. It is there all the time.

It does not change. I belief it is because there is the unconditioned that mind can be stable, peaceful, equanimous, stilled, calm. This is impossible when there would be only fleeting processes. How can a river ever be still? It is even worse, if there would be only change, this means peace of mind is the ultimate delusion and instablity of mind would be realising things as they are.

This makes no sense, so there must be a real basis for peace, stability, calmness, stillness, no change and that can never be fleeting processes.

We are NOT the khandha’s, nothing conditioned, nothing changing, nothing fleeting (this is not mine, not who i am, not myself)

Siebe

[sybe07]

Hi upekkha100,

thanks for the examples.

I think the upadana step allready takes place the moment the mind takes hold of arising thoughts or mental formations. There is a moment the mind instinctively sees arising thoughts as me and mine. I belief there is at that moment attachment or pulling closer due to wrong view. Pulling close happens when mind identifies with what it experieces.

The Buddha emphasised in many sutta’s to treath anything which arises dependently (conditioned) like this: ‘this is not mine, not who i am, not my self’.

The habit of I making and mine making is like an instinct, a very strong habit. It happens not by free will or due to a self-entity, it is just a very strong habit. The mind seems to be very curious, like a cow. When there arises something, it immediately want to see what happens there and pulls it closer.

If there is no tanha and upadana step this does not take place. In that case thought, as verbal formations, as vaci sankhara, would arise, just like sounds, smells etc. but no pulling closer takes place without tanha and updana. Then everything just arises and vanishes without leaving a trace.

kind regards,
Siebe

[sybe07]

Suppose one practices the mindfullness of the in and out breath.
At a certain moment one notices one is daydreaming and does not pay attention to the breath anymore.

The moment one gets involved in this day dreaming proces is this also upadana?

siebe

[sybe07]

Hi Akvan,

Do you refer to Samyutta Nikāya 25.1 and next sutta’s?

https://suttacentral.net/sn25.1/en/sujato

kind regards,
Siebe

[sybe07]

Thanks Lal, Yes, i have thought about that too.

still we can come to a kind of experience which is not defiled, right? Then in the seeing there is only the seeing, in the hearing only the hearing etc. There are no likes or dislikes or even a subject/object split.

Is what an arahant experiences still vinnanakhandha?

[sybe07]

Thanks Lal,

This petavatthu story shows some gifts peta can receive:

https://suttacentral.net/pv27/en/kiribathgoda

Especially when gifts are presented to the Sangha (high kammic consequence) and the merits are transmitted to deceised relatives which have become peta, they are of great fruit for the peta’s.

Some gifts they can receive are (these are mentioned in the above sutta);
-food
-cloths
-vehicles
-water
-houses/mansions

Siebe

[sybe07]

Thanks Lal,

Hmmm…maybe there is something going on with the translation but both Thanissaro and Bodhi translate ‘gifts’ in stead of food.

Without any knowledge of Pali ‘gifts’seems to me appropriate. Why? because i remember from reading petavatthu that peta’s can receive all kinds of gifts, for example cloths, not only food but much more stuff.

Is it only about food?

Apart from this, i do not understand why this only works for peope who died and were reborn as peta’s?

Siebe

[sybe07]

Hi ynot,

Oke. I meant it metaphorically. If a kilesa, such as mana influences someones mind and he/she thinks, speaks and acts conceited, then mind is, metaphorically under Mara’s sway. I did not mean that Mara as devaputta at that moment takes controll.

But sometimes the text speak of Mara as a real living being which can take controll of other living being. In the sutta’s i have encountered that Mara takes possession of:
– Ananda (in DN16, SN51.10, AN8.70) But i doubt if in this context Mara-devaputta is meant or Ananda was under the influence of kilesa-Mara
-Mara takes the householders of a town called Pancasala in possession in such a manner that they do collectively not give alms to the Buddha (SN4.18)
-Mara takes possession of someone in the company of Brahma’s (MN49)
-Mara takes possession of a deva called Vetambari (SN2.30)

Mara can also come in disguise. He can manifest as an ox (SN4.16), as a farmer (SN4.19), as a Brahmin with knotted hair, old (SN4.21). So he can transform in different forms, apparently.

In the sutta’s Mara often acts as a tempter. The bhikkhuni Cala does not approve of birth anymore. Mara approaches her and says that one can enjoy sensual pleasures (SN5.6). As one example. Sometimes Mara stimulates people to aim for high deva realms (SN5.7).

In short, his aim is that being do not escape samsara, his domain, where he is the ultimate ruler. I think he also does not want that people teach the escape-route. He stimulated the Budddha to go into Parinibbana after his awakening.

[sybe07]

Thanks Lal, you said “As long as one has faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, NO ONE in any realm can make anyone deviate from the Path”

This is said in MN47 (at the end of the sutta). It says: §16. “Bhikkhus, when anyone’s faith has been planted, rooted, and established in the Tathagata through these reasons, terms, and phrases, his faith is said to be supported by reasons, rooted in vision, firm; it is invincible by any recluse or brahmin or god or Mara or Brahma or by anyone in the world”
(MN47§16).

@ynot,

Regarding the subject of the range of Mara’s excercising authority.
MN49 describes…”Then Mara the Evil One took possession of a member of
the Brahma’s Assembly..” So, apparantly Mara can take possession of Brahma’s too.

siebe

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