Are the following 2 cases definite ways to tell if one has tihetuka patisandhi?

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    • #18998
      upekkha100
      Participant

      1) Brahma
      2) human/deva who who attained anariya jhana

      It is said that only a Buddha would know whether a person has ahetuka, dvihetuka, or tihetuka patisandhi. I think those 2 above cases are perhaps ways to verify for oneself? My thinking is that because brahmas and those with jhanic attainment have very low greed/hatred and delusion(none of the 10 micca ditthi), and thus would seem to be in the optimal mind state to be able to more easily and quickly grasp the correct version of tilakkhana as compared to average humans.

    • #19001
      y not
      Participant

      Upekkha:

      As far as I can see:

      1) Would those Brahmas not be ones with magga phala ?

      2) not deva/brahmas who attained ARIYA jhanas, rather than anariya jhanas? – since that ‘optimal state of mind’ is a fleeting one for anariyas.

      Metta

    • #19008
      Lal
      Keymaster

      If a human can attain even an anariya jhana, that means he/she has a tihetuka patisandhi.

      Now, when a human who can attain a jhana dies, he/she WILL BE born in a brahma realm (according to which jhanic state it is).
      – Therefore, brahmas have tihetuka patisandhi, by definition.
      – Cultivating jhana is an anantariya kamma (to the good side): upon death in this life one WILL be born in a brahma realm, even if he/she has leftover kammic energy in the present human bhava.

      Devas do not necessarily have tihetuka patisandhi, I believe. A human can be born in a deva realm because of meritorious deeds (especially giving).

    • #19017
      sybe07
      Spectator

      Lal said: “Now, when a human who can attain a jhana dies, he/she WILL BE born in a brahma realm (according to which jhanic state it is)”

      does this not depend on the moment of death? maybe one can attain jhana but still at death not attain jhana and experiece fear and panic?

      Siebe

    • #19019
      Lal
      Keymaster

      No, Siebe. Attainment of a jhana is an anantariya kamma. It WILL lead to birth in a brahma realm.

      However, if one loses that ANARIYA jhana before the time of the death, then he/she will not be born in a brahma realm. That means one’s mindset would have been corrupted.
      – However, if that person is not able to get into jhana while on the death bed due to a physical problem (like pain due to an injury), that would not be a problem; he/she will still be born in a brahma realm.

      Of course, an Ariya jhana will never be lost. Even then one may not be able to get into jhana while on the death bed due to a physical problem.

      The best example is Devadatta. He had attained not only anariya jhana but also super normal (iddhi) powers. But he lost all that once he started planning to take the life of the Buddha, and ended up in an apaya.

    • #19081
      upekkha100
      Participant

      I wonder if the devas/humans who have niyata micca ditthi are dvihetuka(since it lacks the amoha root), and maybe that is why they could be afraid of Nibbana. To be clear, I’m not saying that anyone who is afraid of Nibbana is dvihetuka, perhaps more along the lines of a tihetuka who didn’t remove all the 10 micca ditthi just yet. I myself in the past, would probably not have regarded Nibbana as that great, but now I see this as the highest goal.

      On a related note, when someone removes the 10 micca ditthi, it is said they have entered the mundane Path and are getting closer to grasping tilakkhana. I’d think this would not apply for those with dvihetuka as they wouldn’t be able to in this bhava. So then is it even possible for a dvihetuka person to remove all of the 10 micca ditthi within the same bhava?

    • #19092
      y not
      Participant

      Is it the case that ‘once a tihetuka, always a tihetuka’ ?

      That is, once a tihetuka no future bhava will be either dvihetuka or ahetuka?
      (Parallel with the case that when one attains magga phala there is no going back?)

      Metta

    • #19093
      Tien
      Participant

      Hi y not,

      “Is it the case that ‘once a tihetuka, always a tihetuka’ ?

      That is, once a tihetuka no future bhava will be either dvihetuka or ahetuka?
      (Parallel with the case that when one attains magga phala there is no going back?)”

      No, because like we know brahmas have tihetuka birth (by definition), but they are still subjected to rebirth in the Apayas if haven’t attained magga phala yet.

    • #19094
      Lal
      Keymaster

      These are the basic rules that can be used to settle these questions:

      1. Whether it is tihetuka or dvihetuka is determined at the moment of grasping a new bhava at a cuit-patisandhi moment.
      2. Then that (tihetuka or dvihetuka) is not changed during that whole bhava. For example, if one is born a human with tihetuka patisandhi, it will not change to dvihetuka (and vice versa), when that person is born a human many times during that bhava.
      3. There is a third category called “ahetuka”, which is the lowest. Beings in the four realms (and even a few humans) are born with ahetuka (which does not mean without hetu, but just means with “no good hetu”). Those humans born with ahetuka patisandhi are mentally retarded, and thus can be recognized.
      4. What kind of a birth (ahetuka, dvihetuka, tvihetuka) is determined by the kamma beeja (or the kamma vipaka) responsible for the new bhava.
      5. Therefore, even a human with tihetuka patisandhi can be born with an ahetuka patisandhi in the next bhava. Conversely, an animal could be born with a tihetuka human in the next bhava.
      6. Those are changed permanently only with magga phala. Of course anyone with a magga phala will always be reborn with a tihetuka patisandhi.

      Please ask questions if anything is not clear.

    • #19098
      upekkha100
      Participant

      I’m still curious about this:

      -When someone removes the 10 micca ditthi, it is said they have entered the mundane Path and are getting closer to grasping tilakkhana.

      1) Is it known what happens to a dvihetuka person when they remove all of the 10 micca ditthi?

      2) Or is it that, fully discarding all of the 10 micca ditthi is not even possible for a dvihetuka person, just as grasping tilakkhana is not possible, at least in this bhava(but hopefully in the immediate next bhava, no guarantee I know). Hence why they might remain with niyata micca ditthi, an example would be practising Buddha Dhamma without the belief in rebirth/kamma.

    • #19107
      Lal
      Keymaster

      It is likely that one with a dvihetuka patisandhi may not be able to fully get rid of the 10 types of micca ditthi. For someone to really believe in something, the REASONS for believing must be become clear.
      – That is really the difference between blind faith and true faith based on understanding.

      This is sort of like the following: Suppose one learns a complex mathematical procedure, but the understanding is not complete. Then he/she may be able to solve some problems, but will not be able to solve a problem that requires the full understanding.

      So, one with a dvihetuka patisandhi may not have the wisdom to fully get rid of the 10 types of micca ditthi, and thereby to comprehend Tilakkhana.

      However, I MUST point out that this issue of determining whether one has tihetuka or dvihetuka patisandhi is very TRICKY.

      The story of Ven. Culapanthaka from the Tipitaka is an excellent example. He almost disrobed because he could not even memorize a single gāthā after trying hard for months. His older brother, who was already an Arahant, became frustrated and asked him to disrobe. He apparently thought that Culapanthaka had a dvihetuka birth.

      But with Buddha’s help, Ven. Culapanthaka was able to attain the Arahanthood in a day, and simultaneously developed abhinna powers too.

      So, it is best not to worry about this issue and strive to the best of one’s ability. Even if one has a dvihetuka birth, one can make a lot of progress and make conditions for the next patisandhi to be a tihetuka one.

    • #35177
      lodonyo
      Participant

      Just adding to this thread that the point about striving for the conditions of the next patisandhi seems to be the name of the game. In my practice it’s very easy to say “oh well this isn’t doing anything”. But then I remember that preparing myself for the patisandhi moment is actually what i’m doing then I realize what i’m doing is incredibly useful.

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