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Hi,
Every morning when i wake up, i wake up with the same sense of me or identity. Not the sense of identity that i am Siebe or a man, or Dutch, or a buddhist or hetero, environmentalist etc. but in the same non conceptual sense of identity. I immediately have a sense i am the same as yesterday, and the day before that. This continues every day.
What do you think? Is there a real basis for this, is there something that does not change?
How can there be any stability, any refuge in ourselves possible, when there would be nothing that is stabel, not changing? Why would the Buddha suggest to make an island or refuge of ourselves when we would only be fleeting processes, without any stability?
siebe
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” Is there a real basis for this, is there something that does not change?”
There is NOTHING in this world that does not change.
It depends on exactly what you are trying to change.
Once you figure that out, you need to figure out what MUST BE changed in your THOUGHTS, SPEECH, and ACTIONS that could lead to the change you are seeking.
If you found out the right causes, AND if you follow through what MUST BE done, then the change will happen OVER TIME.
P.S. I was thinking about this a bit more.
- A material thing like our body can be “improved” to some extent only up to the middle age. After that one cannot reverse the inevitable decay with time.
– Basically everyone knows what to do to make a physical body “better”: exercise and eating well. - Our minds (and thus the progress on the Path) can be changed for the better for a longer time. But when one gets to really old age, the brain (which is physical) starts decaying and that will make any more progress impossible.
– The basic suggestion by the Buddha to make one’s mind better is to remove lobha, dosa, moha from one’s mind.
- A material thing like our body can be “improved” to some extent only up to the middle age. After that one cannot reverse the inevitable decay with time.
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Hello Siebe,
“Why would the Buddha suggest to make an island or refuge of ourselves when we would only be fleeting processes……,”
You mean, Siebe, how could the Buddha advise taking refuge in the fleeting? I take this to mean: rely only on your own efforts (not even He could attain anything for any one else). And what effort would that be?: “I take refuge in the Buddha…the Dhamma…the Sangha”.
Now if there is something that is forever unfleeting it is the Dhamma, for, strictly speaking, even the Buddhas who periodically discover it and their Sangha(s) who spread it come and go, are fleeting (as far as their appearance and disappearance, their connection to ‘the world’ is concerned). But the Dhamma is forever the same.
with Metta
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I belief the unconditioned is the stable. Is the unconditioned not in this world? Well, the Buddha embodied the unconditioned in this world. His mind was freed of conditions like tanha, lobha, dosa, moha, asava, avijja en he was in this world.
What does it mean the unconditioned is not of this world? It means mind freed from conditions does not get involved in anything it experiences, it is unattached. This can be called ‘not in this world anymore’. Our minds, still with conditions, becomes part of this world any moment via paticca samupadda. It gets involved via tanha in what it experiences. At that moment it becomes part of the world. When this does not happen mind without conditions does not become part of this world and can be called ‘not of this world’.
With the uncondioned no arising can be seen, no changing, no vanishing (AN3.47). The natural result of removing conditions is the unconditioned, just like pure gold is de natural result of removing defilements in gold.
Nobody, also not the Buddha created the unconditioned. What he did was removing conditions. The uncondioned is the unconstructed. It is not constructed due to practising buddhims. It is there all the time.It does not change. I belief it is because there is the unconditioned that mind can be stable, peaceful, equanimous, stilled, calm. This is impossible when there would be only fleeting processes. How can a river ever be still? It is even worse, if there would be only change, this means peace of mind is the ultimate delusion and instablity of mind would be realising things as they are.
This makes no sense, so there must be a real basis for peace, stability, calmness, stillness, no change and that can never be fleeting processes.
We are NOT the khandha’s, nothing conditioned, nothing changing, nothing fleeting (this is not mine, not who i am, not myself)
Siebe
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Siebe said: “I believe the unconditioned is the stable.”
That is exactly right. But only an Arahant is at the unconditioned state. The question is how does one get to that stage: step-by-step. See, “Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?“.
A related point:
When Siebe says he cannot see a difference from day-to-day (in the first post), that is because he is not “seeing it with panna”. This is actually what most of us perceive.
– We don’t see a change from day-to-day, but the change is apparent to the “physical eyes” only over a relatively long time. Same with the mind: Our minds do not see any change from day to day (that is because our gati do not change that fast).We need to learn to “see” with wisdom (panna).
We know that we have changed physically over the past 10 years, say. We can even look at a picture taken 10 years ago and even see with our own eyes.
However, we may or may not be able to see the change over even a year by looking at an year-old picture.
– But if we think about it, we will realize that we much have changed somewhat over a year, because a few years more and we will be able to see the change.We can keep doing this division to shorter and shorter times. Logically, even over a second, we would have changed at least a minute fraction.
– That is how one “sees” the change with wisdom. The change is incessant, it never stops. We just don’t “see it”.If we don’t make an effort, the change is to the down side.
– If we don’t exercise or eat well, our physical bodies will degrade over a year. In the same way, if we don’t make an effort to be “more moral”, the natural tendency is to “enjoy the moment” and the consequence will be to “worse gati” over a year for sure.Of course, in order to see a “big improvement” of our gati, we must comprehend the anicca nature. That will help us stay away from unwise immoral actions (and more importantly immoral thoughts).
As we discussed in “Sankhāra – What It Really Means“, our conscious thoughts (vaci sankhara) play a huge role here, in helping comprehend the anicca nature, and thus in changing one’s gati.
P.S. The book “The Power of Your Subconscious Mind” by Joseph Murphy gives a mundane version of how our thoughts (the way we think) can make a huge difference. The more we think in a certain way (good or bad), our subconscious mind changes accordingly. This is another way of saying that our gati change according to the way we think.
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Siebe:
“This makes no sense, so there must be…”
As far as I can see, the Unconditioned is attained by the conditioned. This DOES make sense, because if the Unconditioned is attained only by the Unconditioned, then what would there be to attain? The Unconditioned would be at once the means and the goal – so there would be nothing to attain.
We find Suttas like Dutiyasannasutta (AN 7.49), for instance, that list 7 perceptions (in one other Sutta at least more are added) that ‘gain a footing'(amatogadha) in the Deathless (i.e in Nibbana, the Unconditioned) leading to (amatapariyosana) that Deathless. All the aggregates of conditions which you list are developed through the brain, as a channel, an intermediary, to the mind ( hadaya vatthu) where the progress takes place, is registered and stored.
This is where ‘The basic suggestion by the Buddha to make one’s mind better is to remove lobha, dosa, moha from one’s mind’ (Lal) becomes relevant. Because the ‘ground work’ for all that is done by the brain; the ‘front line’is the brain making use of the conditioned to the best of its ability.
I hope I have been clear.
much Metta
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When you are really honest you will admit that you can see that your body changed during time, that your habits have changed during time, maybe your temper etc, but if you are truthful you will see there is something that has not changed at all, you.
It is like being without a headacke or with. When the headacke disappears that is a big relief but at the same time you have the sanna that it was the same person who had the headacke and is without.
Please, do not ignore the fact that there is a sense of me which is constant over time. I think the Buddha refered to it as Asmi mana, one of the deepest rooted defilements. But please do not ignore this sense of me and do not suggest i am the only deluded person who has this sense of an unaltered and unchanging Me.
Siebe
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Siebe:
I do not know whether you are addressing me specifically here. Be that as it may,yes, of course, I personally am not free of asmi mani (far from it, in fact). Arahants Anugami are at the Stage to struggle with that.
Also, you may have misinterpreted what I meant by ‘I hope I have been clear.’ I meant exactly that (that I left no room for misunderstanding), not in the sense when a teacher admonishingly tells a classroom of pupils sternly ‘I hope I have been clear’ (‘be sure to do as I say’; ‘do not come up with excuses later’)
In fact, these last two days I have been subjected to such mood swings that I found myself asking: so which one is the real me? that of 8 hours ago, that of 2 hours ago, that of now? This is where the no self, no no-self doctrine came in. I could not tell which. So where is ‘this one’ that does not change?
Yet, there is still a sense of a ‘me’. I give an instance from personal experience:I must have been in my teens or early twenties. When I woke up I could not identify anything around me. MY name even I could not remember. What family name, what town, what country? Nothing. I was aware only that I was aware. ‘Of what’ has no sense. I was just aware. This was the ‘I’ stripped of all qualities, of all attributes; so what difference could there be between this ‘I’ that is ‘me’ and those ‘I’ s of all others? Because ‘I’ still wanted to know who ‘I’ was.
‘Please, do not ignore the fact that there is a sense of me which is constant over time’ As you see, I am not ignoring that.
More importantly, I sense that you you have taken offence (‘ and do not suggest i am the only deluded person’) either with the last sentence in my post, or with something else I said. And as this is not the first time this has happened (not with regard to you), I am seriously considering opting out of the Forum because, take my word for it, to give offence or hurt another in any way is never my intention. For another thing, I have long been aware that I am easily misunderstood (in life, not only on here)despite all the pains I take to prevent it – and even THAT is at times misunderstood as unnecessary detail obscuring the issue and as causing the very misunderstanding.
I hope(?) I have been understood.
Much Metta to all
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the same sense of identity is a feeling due to “self” which exist in every chitta or thoughts.
When we were to meditate on “anicca” or “anatta” nature starting with breath or flow of fluids in body, arising and disappearing of thoughts as one of the object of contemplation, one can easily comprehend as under:
- There are mental impressions already existing – previous births, habits created in this life (Gati) and characteristics which is unique to that person. Let us call at as “vasana”
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Due to this, the being is attracted or repelled due to what he sees, hears, smells, touches, tastes and thinks. Now with this, there is a reaction based upon (1) above
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As an (re)action is taken there creates a “feeler I” [ vedana ] which stands out to compare with “perceiver I” [ sanna]
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As perceiver I stands out [ sanna ] it brings across comparison and that to operate at the optimum level requires “experiencer I” [ vinnana]
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With combination of Feeler, Perceiver and Experiencer, there arises the “Doer I” which is either taking action based upon past happenings or reacting due to first time experience of that happening.
All these 4 different “I” gives an impression of one un-changing self in everything we do as the thoughts already have in itself all these 4 different “I” categorised as ONE-SELF
To break this chain, the quickest is to look at the vedana or Feeler “I” and then apply panna or wisdom to gain ability in seeing “anicca” or “anatta” nature and thus breaking the bond of “tanha and “Upadana” which is cause of bhava and jati.
This is why, we see a continuous “self” and that is one reality which we see never changes.
Why would the Buddha suggest to make an island or refuge of ourselves when we would only be fleeting processes, without any stability?
This is because, the liberation is from the “self” identity and hence one has to make refuge as that “self also changes”
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I belief, there is a misunderstanding going on.
What we call world, samsara, existence is always changing. Everything in the world or of this existence can be categorised as rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana. The Buddha instructed his student to see this world or existence, these nama’s and rupa’s, as it actually is; this is not mine, not who i am, not myself. We are not the khandha’s.
Next to this existence, which is always changing, which is anicca, dukkha and anatta there is reality. Reality is the one that does not change, it is nicca, sukha and atta. It is called Nibbana, the unconditioned.This does not arise, not vanish and does not change in the meantime (AN3.47)
Now we have the break with the pattern that we think we are sankhara, vedana, sanna, rupa and vinnana, including gati. In many lifes we made the mistake that we are these conditioned processes. So regarding these processes there has arisen a sense of me over many many lifes. This is the real problem we have to solve!
We are not the khandha’s. That’s the main message of the Buddha. This is complelety in line with the sutta’s.
Why can we make a refuge of ourselves? Because when one knows and sees the Dhamma one knows and sees no change, one sees nicca, sukha and atta, Nibbana. One knows that in the end this is ones one true nature, reality.
So when one sees the truth, Dhamma, one at the same times glimpes the truth that rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana are not really ‘me”.
So in the end there is safety within us, there is sukha, there is refuge, and it is there all the time,even in the phase of the worldling, because Nibbana does not arise and cease. How can Nibbana not be there? Nibbana is not caused by the Buddha, but discovered and realised. This realisation process means removing all adventitious defilement until one has become the unconditioned in true sense.
Siebe
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Sybe07 said:
Next to this existence, which is always changing, which is anicca, dukkha and anatta there is reality. Reality is the one that does not change, it is nicca, sukha and atta. It is called Nibbana, the unconditioned.This does not arise, not vanish and does not change in the meantime (AN3.47)
I agree and never had any confusion on this one. The moment there is un-conditioning it, then it is nibbana. Un-conditioning happens when the person stops attaching to panchakhandas as they arise and pass away and that is how nature works. Thus he loses attachment to raga, dvesha and moha which is part of khanda’s and there is no “I” or “mine” in that.
This is what I wanted to explain in my above post on what is “I” and why a person holds on (upadana) on it.
We are not the khandas and reality is udayavaya only and that is the message of Buddha and there is no doubt left for me in that way.
Not sure where I got misunderstood or confused you.
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