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Saḷāyatana Are Not Sense Faculties
#2
Since internal āyatana takes into account all past, present, and future (perceived) sense faculties, our current sense faculties are only a minute fraction of the category of “internal āyatana.”
#7
In the section “The Five Aggregates (Pañcakkhandha),” we discussed the fact that we get attached to only a fraction of the five aggregates (things in this world.)
In this “analysis in terms of the twelve āyatana,” we can see that we attach to the same pañca upādānakkhandā (pañcupādānakkhandā.)
We attach to all six internal āyatana. That happens for all average humans who view/perceive all internal sense faculties as “mine.” As we discussed, that view is sakkāya diṭṭhi.
However, we attach to only a fraction of external āyatana. For example, we attach only to a fraction of external rupa, sadda, gandha, rasa, and phottabba.
With the above background, we can now discuss some critical facts.–
OK. Now I got it. There is no contradiction. I don’t know why I missed these sentences. This post is wonderful! I am deeply indebted to lal for all your help.
But that does not answer that “cakkayatana is cakkhu pasada rupa made of apo, tejo, vayo, pathavi“. If something is made of satara mahabhuta, it can not be in vinnana dhatu. And pancakkhandha are all in vinnana dhatu. Therefore, there is a possibility that the ‘cakkhu pasāda’ in the ayatanavibhanga is not referring to the pasada rupa of kammaja kaya. Or maybe I’m completely mistaken.
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Difference Between Physical Rūpa and Rūpakkhandha
8. Now, we can see the main difference between physical rūpa and rūpakkhandha.
A physical rūpa is either of the following two kinds. A solid object that one sees with one ‘s eyes or touches with one’s body (a person, a person’s body or a body part, a tree, a planet, a star, etc.) Those are what we usually call “solid objects.” Then, other sensory inputs come through the other three sense doors (smells, tastes, or sounds).
Rūpakkhandha has MENTAL IMPRESSIONS of all external rūpā that one has EXPERIENCED. Rūpakkhandha is NOT tangible or has any energy in them. One’s rūpakkhandha is INFINITE. It has records of ALL one has seen in ALL past lives going back and back in time without “an actual beginning.”+)
Tattha katamaṁ rūpāyatanaṁ? Yaṁ rūpaṁ catunnaṁ mahābhūtānaṁ upādāya vaṇṇanibhā sanidassanaṁ sappaṭighaṁ nīlaṁ pītakaṁ lohitakaṁ odātaṁ kāḷakaṁ mañjiṭṭhakaṁ hari harivaṇṇaṁ ambaṅkuravaṇṇaṁ dīghaṁ rassaṁ aṇuṁ thūlaṁ vaṭṭaṁ parimaṇḍalaṁ caturassaṁ chaḷaṁsaṁ aṭṭhaṁsaṁ soḷasaṁsaṁ ninnaṁ thalaṁ chāyā ātapo āloko andhakāro abbhā mahikā dhūmo rajo candamaṇḍalassa vaṇṇanibhā sūriyamaṇḍalassa vaṇṇanibhā tārakarūpānaṁ vaṇṇanibhā ādāsamaṇḍalassa vaṇṇanibhā maṇisaṅkhamuttaveḷuriyassa vaṇṇanibhā jātarūparajatassa vaṇṇanibhā, yaṁ vā panaññampi atthi rūpaṁ catunnaṁ mahābhūtānaṁ upādāya vaṇṇanibhā sanidassanaṁ sappaṭighaṁ, yaṁ rūpaṁ sanidassanaṁ sappaṭighaṁ cakkhunā anidassanena sappaṭighena passi vā passati vā passissati vā passe vā, rūpampetaṁ rūpāyatanampetaṁ rūpadhātupesā.
So rūpāyatana is not in vinnana dhatu.
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I’m going to organize what I understand.
There are three kinds of information in the samsara.
First type: Information made by suddhāṭṭhaka; apo, tejo, vayo, pathavi.
Second type: Information about F-information, which is vipaka vinnana.
Third type: The information by mind creation, which is dhammā.
The Paticca Samuppada process describes the flow of circulating these three types of information.
We accept information of type F in the form of type S. (Vipaka vinnana)
If it is matched our sangati, ‘tanha paccaya upadana’ and ‘upadana paccaya bhava’ run.
Therefore, information of type T(dhammā) will be created by the mind.
And information of type T is turned into type F. (creation of new manomaya kaya)
F->S is a mechanical and automatic process. In this case, we have no choice. It also happens in the case of Arahant.<br />
But S->T is different. We can make a choice. We have the power not to upadana. Arahant makes no information of type T with san.
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Ayatana is a way of explaining the defiled F->S process. Ayatana is influenced by sangati. Accumulation of sangati occurs at the S->T process. If there is no san(arahant), there is no ayatana.
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To sum up, I’d like to hear why living arahant does not have salayatana, but pancakkhandha. If the extension of salayatana is the same as the extension of pancakkhandha, it can not happen.
Ragakkhayo Nibbanan.
There are three types of raga: kama raga, rupa raga, arupa raga.
To put it simply, PS describes how raga turns into kaya.
If you have yet kama raga, you will be born in kama loka. (Kama kaya)
Samely, rupa and arupa raga gives you (a)rupavacara kaya.
So, the continuation of samsara is to continue with getting kaya.
As long as someone thinks kaya is a good thing(have raga), the creation of kaya doesn’t stop.
Sakkaya ditthi is sath + kaya. So put together, it means samsara is good for oneself.
Kaya comes from raga. Ragakkhayo is the end of kaya. That is why there is no kaya in Nibbana.
Also, if there is no kaya(manomaya), there can not be citta too. So, there is no citta or cetasika in Nibbana.
“The problem with the question is in the bolded part. The gandhabba is the kammaja kaya. It has its pancakkhandha.”
OK. The problem has been solved now. Thank you. The question was made to translate it into Korean more neatly.
+) If one makes sankhara, it makes sankhata: manomaya kaya, dhamma rupa, etc. (uppada)
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Lal, I think the above analysis might enhance the value of the post Introduction -2 – The Three Categories of Suffering with compactness. How about using it?
There are three layers of suffering: dukkha dukkha, viparinama dukkha, and sankhara dukkha.
I arranged them in deep order.
The first step is to understand the law of kamma.
The punna(good) kamma can give us happiness(good vipaka).
The akusala(bad) kamma can give us suffering(bad vipaka).
So we can see that the suffering is due to the bad kamma.
It means you’ll pay for what you do, good or bad.
But we don’t need Buddha Dhamma to know it.
The second step is to understand mortality.
Everything born must die one day.
Naked we come into the world, and naked we leave it.
No matter how good it is, it will be over one day.
But we don’t need Buddha Dhamma to know it, either.
The third step is to understand the danger of samsara.
When we understand sankhara dukkha, we understand how to chunk the two previous dukkha.
We suffer when we make an effort inconsistent with nature’s laws. (dukkha dukkha)
For example, they believe that evil can cause happiness, that they can achieve happiness without providing the right conditions, or that an inappropriate way is appropriate.
It is linked to ‘aññathā(unexpected change of sankhata)’. (aññathattaṁ saṅkhatalakkhaṇa)
Unpredictable changes make it difficult to grasp the conditions that must be prepared to achieve happiness.
This creates a time gap between happiness and effort.
Efforts to narrow this gap forcefully harm other beings(akusala kamma).
And someday, it gives us bad vipaka.
Therefore, all efforts inconsistent with the laws of nature must lead to suffering.
Furthermore, we suffer when we make an effort consistent with nature’s laws too. (viparinama dukkha)
Even if we do all good deeds and birth in the good realms, we can’t help ourselves from running up against death. (vayo saṅkhatalakkhaṇa)
So, all efforts consistent with the laws of nature must lead to suffering.
This is a dead-end ally in samsara. As long as we think that the choice to continue samsara is a good thing, we must meet it.
As long as you try to find happiness in samsara, there must be suffering. (sankhara dukkha)
This is the essence of Buddha Dhamma.
That is why the sankhara dukkha is “the great danger“
Ne 5 “tasmā saṅkhāradukkhatā dukkhaṁ lokassāti katvā dukkhamassa mahabbhayanti”
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I think that it’s very difficult for us to look at a given situation and distinguish what’s the cause and what’s the condition. Actually, kammavipaka is an acinteyya topic. Infinite gives us many counterintuitive phenomena.
Someone achieved an anagami stage and died. He still has a rupa raga. He was born in suddhāvāsa. However, he didn’t make it to remove the rupa raga until the end of that given bhava. In this case, in the cuti-patisandhi moment, does he get a new bhava in rupaloka? Or will the rebirth process end?
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Same way, if Sakadagami didn’t make it to remove the kama raga completely until the end of that given deva bhava, does he get a new bhava in Kamaloka? Or will the rebirth process end?
+)
I understood the dhamma niyata explanation as soon as I posted the question. So it is like a constant of nature. Empirical observations of it can be made, but we can never know why it is. So it is an acinteyya topic.
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Understanding
The newest thing about me while learning Pure Dhamma was explaining the memory process in detail. The infinite, eternal, and non-local preservation of information without extra energy revolutionized my thinking. There is no need for energy to remain anidassana/appaṭigha nāma. In contrast, every sankhata needs energy to maintain itself.
We can tell sankhata is information in a way. For example, a pencil contains not only the basic information that there is it but also information on how rubber, coal, and wood became pencils. Over time, the physical preservation of such information becomes impossible. However, mental information(pancakkhanda)is eternal.
It means there are two different types of information. The first type is sankhata, the first information. The second type is namagotta, the meta information. If the former is the information that there was a pencil there, the latter is the information that I saw that there was a pencil there.
The first type of information is not stored forever. But the second type is. It means the mind can generate meta-information, which is infinite and eternal.
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Practical application
The meta-information is infinite and eternal. It means that all the happiness in samsara is not new for me. Every kind of it has already been experienced. If I choose to continue the rebirth process, it’s not new at all because it’s the choice I made before already. But if I decide to stop the rebirth process, it is new. So the only new thing that can be done is the complete elimination of defilement.
Lal, Your explanation above is very helpful in understanding the taṇhā and upādāna at cittā level and also I can see the 4NT in above explanation.
I got very clear idea about this process now. Also, reading the recommended posts.
Everyone reading this please read above explanation by Lal. Lal you explained and help connect many dhamma concepts with above description; Including kamma vipakā, kamma generation, 4NT, Akusala PS cycle etc.
Thank you for you efforts to help us all everyday in getting more near to The Nibbāna🙏🏻.
Huge merits and mettā.
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Lal said,
Up to the V (votthapana) citta, all cittas are vipaka citta. They only have only mano sankhara.
At the votthapana citta, a decision is made regarding how to respond to the sensory input. If attachment happened (due to one’s gati), then seven javana cittas run to respond accordingly.
1. So, Basically whole dukkhā Samudaya starts at V stage due to mind making wrong decision due to wrong worldview, isn’t it?
Here, Wrong worldview = diṭṭhi/saññā/cittā vipallāsa regarding 11 components of PañcakKhanda.
Wrong decision = Trying to solve problem of dukkhā of saṅsarā within saṅsarā.
2. At Arhant Stage, ALL mano saṅkhāra are free from vipallāsa due to paññā and broken anusaya. So, for Mind with complete paññā, At V stage, there is no attachment to anything in any vipakā cittā, right?
3. All dukkhā starts due to mind not understanding 4NT. When mind tries to escape dukkhā experienced in saṅsarā within saṅsarā only, it is like jumping from one disease to another. That is the whole problem. Nothing in this world leads to permanent escape from dukkhā.
4. Mind creates prison for itself by befriending/Resisting vipakā.
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It is really eye opening to see that beings laced with ignorance wears handcuffs on their own.
This whole sentient existence is one big cruel joke.
sadhu! sadhu! sadhu!
OK. I read #44184 again, and I found I was wrong. There is no issue in the post ““Me” and “Mine” – The Root Cause of Suffering.”
Lal said: “Even though the first two javana citta have mano sankhara (vedana, sanna), those inevitably lead to upadana and kamma generation.”
So, in that context, we can deem the mano kamma can generate kammic energy that leads to kamma vipāka.
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About #44182.
First, to prevent unnecessary misunderstanding, I am not saying that Abhidhamma confuses me. Though I wrote, “I think the Abhidhammic explanation gives me more confusion than clarity.” I think the problem arose because I didn’t write it down in more detail. I’m sorry. I am not questioning the effectiveness of Abhidhamma. If we can get a proper explanation, we can appreciate the beauty of Abhidhamma. I am just saying that it has complexity. The problem is giving a proper explanation is really hard.
I am a pragmatic person. If we don’t have to go on a difficult path, and if it’s valid to approach it differently, I think it might be better to go on that path. But it is not the same thing with I’m saying that the difficult road is invalid. My concern is how to say the same thing more simply. And that’s why I choose to build compact dhamma.
At least we can agree on this point: In order to understand the Abhidhamma system, we have to learn many basic blocks(e.g., cetasika, citta vithi, etc.) and put a lot of effort into figuring out the meaning of the system. This whole process is not simple.
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I’m a person who likes to solve complicated things. But I also know that not everyone is like me. I wish puredhamma were known more. I hope more people can taste Dhamma, but the explanation (with Abhidhamma) is still challenging for beginners. There is a saying in the East. “No one can climb a three-yard height wall, but a child can climb a two-mile height mountain. Because the slope is gentle.” We don’t have to give up a deeper analysis. What we need is a staircase where beginners can climb step by step. This is what I wanted to say. The Abhidhammic explanation that already exists is sufficient. What we need now is a staircase.<br />
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I think it would be good to start by telling you what it means to learn the worldview. Like this video.“Me” and “Mine” – The Root Cause of Suffering
10. There is nothing wrong with recalling past events. The problem arises when we attach to them and start re-creating those events in our minds to generate abhisaṅkhāra.
Kammā (which lead to kamma vipāka) generated in three ways: manō kamma, vaci kamma, and kāya kamma. They are done via manō saṅkhāra, vaci saṅkhāra, and kāya saṅkhāra. See “Sankhāra – What It Really Means.”
Mano kamma (our spontaneous thoughts) arise automatically according to our gati.
Vaci kamma (“talking to ourselves” and speech) arise due to conscious thoughts (done with vitakka/vicāra.)
kāya kamma also arise due to conscious thoughts and have the highest javana power because they involve moving bodily actions; see, “Javana of a Citta – The Root of Mental Power.”–
I’m worried that I’m pointing out too small a problem. In context, there is some possibility that mano sankhara could be read as abhisankhara. It’s a minor correction.
“Mano sankhara never get to the abhisankhara stage.”
OK. I think the Abhidhammic explanation gives me more confusion than clarity. Because it deals with too subtle issues, which are unnecessary to think about to attain maggaphala. Though I am not questioning Abhidhamma’s consistency with the other two Pitaka, it is good to re-consider the necessity of Abhidhammic level explanation. Of course, it gives higher clarity in some parts. But in terms of the whole, it has a counter-effect by disturbing the evenness of the resolution of the big picture. So I carefully suspect we might need to use Occam’s razor. I think I can complete compact dhamma in a day or two now, and I am thinking about how to translate it into English. So we can discuss compact dhamma further concerning Occam’s razor topic soon.
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Lal said: “But the post does not say that mano sankhara are abhisankhara. Is that right?”
Right.
