Compilation of my thoughts

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    • #44262
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      I will use this thread to post my question about Dhamma.

    • #44264
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      Understanding

      The newest thing about me while learning Pure Dhamma was explaining the memory process in detail. The infinite, eternal, and non-local preservation of information without extra energy revolutionized my thinking. There is no need for energy to remain anidassana/appaṭigha nāma. In contrast, every sankhata needs energy to maintain itself.

      We can tell sankhata is information in a way. For example, a pencil contains not only the basic information that there is it but also information on how rubber, coal, and wood became pencils. Over time, the physical preservation of such information becomes impossible. However, mental information(pancakkhanda)is eternal.

      It means there are two different types of information. The first type is sankhata, the first information. The second type is namagotta, the meta information. If the former is the information that there was a pencil there, the latter is the information that I saw that there was a pencil there.

      The first type of information is not stored forever. But the second type is. It means the mind can generate meta-information, which is infinite and eternal.

      Practical application

      The meta-information is infinite and eternal. It means that all the happiness in samsara is not new for me. Every kind of it has already been experienced. If I choose to continue the rebirth process, it’s not new at all because it’s the choice I made before already. But if I decide to stop the rebirth process, it is new. So the only new thing that can be done is the complete elimination of defilement.

    • #44438
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      There are three layers of suffering: dukkha dukkha, viparinama dukkha, and sankhara dukkha.

      I arranged them in deep order.

      The first step is to understand the law of kamma.

      The punna(good) kamma can give us happiness(good vipaka).

      The akusala(bad) kamma can give us suffering(bad vipaka).

      So we can see that the suffering is due to the bad kamma.

      It means you’ll pay for what you do, good or bad.

      But we don’t need Buddha Dhamma to know it.

      The second step is to understand mortality.

      Everything born must die one day.

      Naked we come into the world, and naked we leave it.

      No matter how good it is, it will be over one day.

      But we don’t need Buddha Dhamma to know it, either.

      The third step is to understand the danger of samsara.

      When we understand sankhara dukkha, we understand how to chunk the two previous dukkha.

      We suffer when we make an effort inconsistent with nature’s laws. (dukkha dukkha)

      For example, they believe that evil can cause happiness, that they can achieve happiness without providing the right conditions, or that an inappropriate way is appropriate.

      It is linked to ‘aññathā(unexpected change of sankhata)’. (aññathattaṁ saṅkhatalakkhaṇa)

      Unpredictable changes make it difficult to grasp the conditions that must be prepared to achieve happiness.

      This creates a time gap between happiness and effort.

      Efforts to narrow this gap forcefully harm other beings(akusala kamma).

      And someday, it gives us bad vipaka.

      Therefore, all efforts inconsistent with the laws of nature must lead to suffering.

      Furthermore, we suffer when we make an effort consistent with nature’s laws too. (viparinama dukkha)

      Even if we do all good deeds and birth in the good realms, we can’t help ourselves from running up against death. (vayo saṅkhatalakkhaṇa)

      So, all efforts consistent with the laws of nature must lead to suffering.

      This is a dead-end ally in samsara. As long as we think that the choice to continue samsara is a good thing, we must meet it.

      As long as you try to find happiness in samsara, there must be suffering. (sankhara dukkha)

      This is the essence of Buddha Dhamma.

      That is why the sankhara dukkha is “the great danger

      Ne 5 “tasmā saṅkhāradukkhatā dukkhaṁ lokassāti katvā dukkhamassa mahabbhayanti”

       

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    • #44439
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Excellent. 

      1. The last verse captures the essence. “Bhaya” is ‘danger,” and “mahabbhaya” (mahā + bhaya) is “great danger.”

      2. An average human perceives the cultivation of (abhi)saṅkhāra as “pleasure.” An extreme example is raping a woman seeking sensory gratification. That involves vaci (planning/thinking) and kaya (implementing) abhisankhara. It could be enjoyable at that time.

      • However, he will pay for that brief gratification for millions of years. Unimaginable but true!
      • That is “the great danger.”

      P. S.

      3. It is a good idea to gradually contemplate the danger of even excessive sensory pleasures (such as craving tasty foods, music, etc.) See “Son’s Flesh” which is the translation of the “Puttamaṁsa Sutta (SN 12.63).”

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    • #44441
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      +) If one makes sankhara, it makes sankhata: manomaya kaya, dhamma rupa, etc. (uppada)

      Lal, I think the above analysis might enhance the value of the post Introduction -2 – The Three Categories of Suffering with compactness. How about using it?

    • #44444
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Good idea. Thank you!

      I added the following to the post:

      13. The “Vicayahāravibhaṅga” in  the Petakopadesa states the following: “Saṅkhāradukkhatāya pana loko anupādisesāya nibbānadhātuyā muccati, tasmā saṅkhāradukkhatā dukkhaṁ lokassāti katvā dukkhamassa mahabbhayanti.”

      • The meaning is “If saṅkhāra-dukkha can be overcome, one will get to Nibbāna. Therefore, saṅkhāra-dukkha is the one with great danger (mahabbhaya or mahā + bhaya.)”
      • An average human perceives the cultivation of (abhi)saṅkhāra as “pleasure.” An extreme example is raping a woman seeking sensory gratification. That involves vaci (planning/thinking) and kāya (implementing) abhisaṅkhāra. It could be enjoyable at that time. However, he will pay for that brief gratification for millions of years. Unimaginable but true!
      • Thus, any such “pleasure” is short-lived (vipariṇāma dukkha) and will bring unimaginable dukkha-dukkha in the future. One must “see” the “hidden suffering in sensory pleasures” before getting to the Sotapanna stage. 
      • Until then, humans see the cultivation of (abhi)saṅkhāra as “pleasure.”
    • #44480
      LayDhammaFollower
      Participant

      Good insights, Dosakkhayo!

    • #44509
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      Ragakkhayo Nibbanan.

      There are three types of raga: kama raga, rupa raga, arupa raga.

      To put it simply, PS describes how raga turns into kaya.

      If you have yet kama raga, you will be born in kama loka. (Kama kaya)

      Samely, rupa and arupa raga gives you (a)rupavacara kaya.

      So, the continuation of samsara is to continue with getting kaya.

      As long as someone thinks kaya is a good thing(have raga), the creation of kaya doesn’t stop.

      Sakkaya ditthi is sath + kaya. So put together, it means samsara is good for oneself.

      Kaya comes from raga. Ragakkhayo is the end of kaya. That is why there is no kaya in Nibbana. 

      Also, if there is no kaya(manomaya), there can not be citta too. So, there is no citta or cetasika in Nibbana.

    • #44511
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Sakkaya ditthi can also be analyzed as “sa + kaya” or “my + kaya.”

      • But it is neither mine nor someone else’s. It arises due to causes and conditions (Paticca Samuppada.)
      • Many suttas explain that “this body is not yours; not someone else’s either.” It is a “hetu/phala.”

        See, for example, “Natumha Sutta (SN 12.37).”

       

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    • #44516
      cubibobi
      Participant

      Until then, humans see the cultivation of (abhi)saṅkhāra as “pleasure”.

       

      Is this “pleasure” also described by the word Assāda, as in Assāda, Ādīnava, Nissarana?

      Fascinating thread with much insight. Thank you!

    • #44518
      Lal
      Keymaster

      “Is this “pleasure” also described by the word Assāda, as in Assāda, Ādīnava, Nissarana?”

      Yes. That is indeed the critical point.

      • Buddha never denied that there are “pleasurable things” in this world. That is why beings are trapped in the rebirth process. They look at only the “immediate gratification” (Assāda) offered by sensory pleasures. 
      • The “previously unheard teachings of the Buddha” is that those “pleasurable things” have “hidden suffering” (Ādīnava.)
      • When one comprehends the Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana, one can see how such Assāda leads to Ādīnava. See “Understanding the Terms in Paṭicca Samuppāda.”
      • That is when one becomes a Sotapanna/Sotapanna Anugami and starts striving for Nissarna,  which means “stop traveling the rebirth process.” 
      • There is a series of posts onAssāda, Ādīnava, Nissarana.”

      See, for example, “Baḷisa Sutta (SN 17.2),” where the Buddha compared those who have not comprehended Buddha Dhamma to a fish who only sees the bait as “pleasure.” They do not see the “hidden suffering” in sensory pleasures. Until they see it, they will be trapped in the rebirth process (samsara.)

      • In that sutta, the Buddha compared sensory pleasures to “Māra’s hook.”
    • #45065
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      Do I Have “A Mind” That Is Fixed and “Mine”?

      8. When an EM wave (kiraṇa) packet arrives at the cakkhu pasāda, it hits the hadaya vatthu and “transfers” that visual information about the tree to the mind. The mind is born momentarily during this transition for the duration of that signal.

      This is what is meant by “cakkhunca Paṭicca rupeca uppajjāti cakkhu viññānam.”

      In that context, “cakkhunca Paṭicca rupeca uppajjāti cakkhu viññānam.” shows how to be aware world by indriya.

      But when we see with san, it shows how to be aware world by ayatana.

      The cakkhu become cakkayatana and rupa become rupayatana.

      For example, two people with different tastes read the same book.

      John didn’t like what the main character did at the end. But Mary thought it was the best ending.

      They both read the same letters, but they took them differently.

      So, in this case, we can say that they’re not looking at the same thing.

      This is why rupa ayatana is all personal and mental.

      It is made by the mind and reflects one’s personal preferences(gati, anusaya).

    • #45068
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yes. That is correct. 

      • An Arahant would see, hear, etc., but not have ayatana since they don’t have anusaya or gati. Thus, there will be no abhisankhara generated based on seeing, hearing, etc.
    • #48554
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      There are three fetters: sakkaya ditthi, silabbata paramasa, and vicikicca.

      Each of those are not knowing how to deal with correctly raga, dosa, and moha.

      Sakkaya ditthi is the false belief that the consequent pleasure from having raga can be meaningful in some way.

      “When one door closes, another opens; but we often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door that we do not see the one which has opened for us.”

      “Everything will be Okay.”

      These words are good example of sakkaya ditthi.

      There are three groups in the 10 punna kamma: Dana, Sila, and Bhavana.

      Sila group helps to remove dosa and cultivate adosa.

      But Anariya hasn’t removed silabbata paramasa yet, i.e. they couldn’t see the essence of morality, their sila is not permanent.

      Instead, Ariya saw the essence of morality so silabbata paramasa is gone.

      Then what is the essence of morality?

      How I treat a living being determines how nature treats me as a living being.

      AND, there is no right reason to harm other beings.

      Because nothing is more precious than life.

      One may think like this. “I can swear at him because he broke my stuff, because my stuff is precious.”

      But, nothing is more precious than life.

      The point is that as long as someone has sakkaya ditthi, one day they put something else on life.

      What should I know more broadly? What more information should I collect?

      These questions have nothing to do with understanding the nature of the suffering.

      One should purify one’s mind. What we should do and need to do is that. And it alone is enough to attain Nibbana.

      Until one really comes to this conclusion, one still has vicikicca.

      Think about 10 samyojanas.

      Those can be chunked in three categories.

      Raga categories

      • sakkaya ditthi
      • kama raga
      • rupa raga
      • arupa raga
      • mana

      Dosa categories

      • silabbata paramasa
      • patigha
      • uddacca

      Moha categories

      • vicikicca
      • avijja

      And we can also see that the first item of each list means not knowing how to do ragakkhayo dosakkhayo mohakkhayo, and the rest items mean not doing enough.

      That’s why sotapanna knows the map to the nibbana. Ragakkhayo dosakkhayo and mohakkhayo cover all of the bhavana!

      So we should deal with raga by asubha, dosa by metta, moha by panna.

      • #48559
        Jittananto
        Participant

         

        “Sakkaya ditthi is the false belief that the consequent pleasure from having raga can be meaningful in some way.”

         

        • To be more precise Sakkaya ditthi is the belief in personality. It can take two forms: Sassatta ditthi the belief in an eternal self that will end in a higher or lower realm forever. Present in most religions. The other is uccheda ditthi the belief in a self that is annihilated at death. Sakkaya ditthi can take many forms. However, this belief can say that there is a self that must enjoy sensual pleasures, (Kāma ragā)
    • #48560
      Lal
      Keymaster

      1. Those ideas (Dosakkhayo‘s) about sakkaya ditthi are good but mostly mundane.

      • At the root level, sakkaya ditthi means the view that “pursuing worldly things can bring happiness.” 
      • Once one can see the “big picture of the Buddha” that spans over the rebirth process and the fact that a “suffering-free mind” is hidden under layers of defilements, that view will be eliminated. Sakkaya ditthi will disappear, and the tendency to pursue worldly things will diminish when one comprehends that.
      • I have been discussing that in recent posts and tried to summarize it in the latest post: “Ārammaṇa (Sensory Input) Initiates Critical Processes.”

      2. Silabba Paramasa

      • I may not have discussed “silabbata paramasa” sufficiently. 
      • Paramasa” means a “conviction” that some way of doing things can DEFINITELY get one to the goal.
      • When the goal is to attain Nibbana, “silabbata paramasa” means “following a specific set of precepts/rituals” can get one there. However, while moral conduct is necessary to attain Nibbana, it is NOT sufficient. Nibbana is attained by cultivating wisdom (panna), and morality is a necessary CONDITION.

      3. The various categories of “conditions to attain Nibbana” (seven types of anusaya, ten samyojana, four yogā, four Asava, etc) are discussed in the post “Conditions for the Four Stages of Nibbāna.” To categorize into raga, dosa, moha would be as follows:

      Raga categories:

      • kama raga
      • rupa raga
      • arupa raga

      Dosa categories:

      • patigha
      • uddacca

      Moha categories:

      • sakkaya ditthi
      • vicikicca
      • silabbata paramasa
      • mana
      • avijja

      Under the moha category, sakkaya ditthi, vicikicca, and silabbata paramasa are ditthi (wrong views). Mana (the idea of “me/myself”) and avijja arise due to avijja. Uddacca (“unsettled mind”) could be categorized under avijja or dosa.

      • Of course, everything will eventually be due to avijja!

       

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      • #48720
        dosakkhayo
        Participant

        I thought about it for a week. And I found out that I was wrong. It meant a lot to me, in a good way. I appreciate your correction.

        • #48722
          Lal
          Keymaster

          You are welcome!

    • #48562
      Jittananto
      Participant

      I understand that a sotāpanna is said to have eradicated sakkaya ditthi. However, even though a sotāpanna has achieved this, he can still have a strong attachment to kāma ragā. This attachment depends on his gāti, and he may continue to pursue the things of this world. However, he will never commit evil acts to acquire them. I have been considering that belief in the personality might be more appropriate since it eradicates all micchādiṭṭhi. If I have made any mistakes, please correct me. I am still transitioning and learning about many Dhamma concepts that I previously understood in a worldly way. Most of my statements are based on what I learned before I encountered the Puredhamma site. Thank you for sharing the essay Dosakkhayo; it has highlighted my gaps in certain concepts.

    • #48563
      Jittananto
      Participant

      This is an example of a publication on Sakkaya ditthi.

      SAKKAYA DITTHI: SELF-IDENTIFICATION VIEW IN THERAVADA BUDDHISM

      Sakkaya ditthi is the wrong view that mistakenly identifies with one of the five aggregates of clinging that constitute the Psycho-physical complex described as a being or personality as “self”. 

      There are three possible ways in which self-identification can take place.

      This is mine – due to craving (tanha)

      This I am – due to conceit (mana)

      This is me – due to the wrong view (ditthi)

    • #48564
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Gad wrote: “Sakkaya ditthi is the wrong view that mistakenly identifies with one of the five aggregates of clinging that constitute the Psycho-physical complex described as a being or personality as “self”.”

      • So, a Sotapanna does not have the sense of a “me”? Would not consider the house, car, or anything else as his?
      • #48565
        Jittananto
        Participant

        No, he still has this wrong perception but he will never fall into the views related to Sakkaya ditthi.

        In the Duthiya Isidatta sutta of the Samyutta Nikaya, it is stated that various other wrong views and the sixty-two wrong views described in the Brahmajala sutta arise due to the presence of sakkaya ditthi and that they do not arise when there is no sakkaya ditthi. The ten other wrong views described in the Duthiya Isidatta sutta are;

        The world is eternal.

        The world is not eternal.

        The world is finite.

        The world is not finite.

        The soul and the body are the same.

        The soul and the body are not the same.

        One exists after death.

        One does not exist after death.

        One both exists and does not exist after death.

        One neither exists nor does not exist after death (6).

        I believe it is this aspect of Sakkaya ditthi that a sotāpanna has eliminated, right?

    • #48572
      Lal
      Keymaster

      You are still quoting standard phrases: “No, he still has this wrong perception but he will never fall into the views related to Sakkaya ditthi.” That does not say anything about the meaning of sakkaya ditthi.” I asked a couple of direct questions above.

      • What do you understand by “sakkaya ditthi“? If you can explain in your own words, I can comment.
      • I am not trying to “get you.” If you genuinely want to learn Dhamma, you need to try to understand what you don’t know. If you don’t want to answer, that is fine. 

      One problem I have is that I don’t know how much of what I write people understand. I can write many posts, but if I am not addressing issues that people don’t understand, then it is a waste of time.

      • #48575
        Jittananto
        Participant

        Certainly, Sir, I will answer your question. As I mentioned earlier, there are still many concepts that I am processing. Sakkaya ditthi refers to the belief in an unchanging and permanent soul, which can be controlled and passed on from one life to another or can perish with the body depending on the ditthi. A sotāpanna has eliminated these views, but the perception of self still lingers like a bad smell on a washed cloth. It is only at the arahant stage that the perception of self is eliminated. This is the summary of what I learned, sir. Please explain what I misunderstood.

    • #48576
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Excellent.

      • You wrote: “Sakkaya ditthi refers to the belief in an unchanging and permanent soul, which can be controlled and passed on from one life to another or can perish with the body depending on the ditthi. A sotāpanna has eliminated these views, but the perception of self still lingers like a bad smell on a washed cloth.”
      • That is the explanation I was looking for.

      There are three related concepts that the Buddha taught.

      • A puthujjana attaches to things with mana (or asmi mana), tanha, and ditthi, in that order. All three arise based on the “distorted sanna” that is built-in to ALL births via Paticca Samuppada.
      • Asmi mana is the “sense of self or me,” which is the “deepest layer.” That is eliminated at the Arahant stage.
      • Next is tanha (in the form of kama raga, rupa raga, and arupa raga, which value existences in kama, rupa, and arupa loka.) Here, kama raga is removed at the Anagami stage. Rupa raga and arupa raga are removed while on the Arahant magga, i.e., after attaining the Anagami stage.
      • The outermost layer  is “sakkaya ditthi.”  That is the VIEW that worldly things have kama guna and thus can bring happiness. That is the first layer of ignorance to be removed at the Sotapanna stage

      They are summarized in the verse: “etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti.” It is discussed in the post “Etaṁ Mama, Esohamasmi, Eso Me Attā’ti – What Does It Mean?”

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    • #48577
      Jittananto
      Participant

      Thank you very much for taking the time to explain this to me, sir. I have to reread it to make sure I get it right. As I said there are many concepts in transition in my mind that I used to understand in a worldly way.

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    • #49500
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      Ditthi asava is defined in the Vibhanga as follows:

      Vb17 215.1
      Tattha katamo diṭṭhāsavo? “Sassato loko”ti vā, “asassato loko”ti vā, “antavā loko”ti vā, “anantavā loko”ti vā, “taṁ jīvaṁ taṁ sarīran”ti vā, “aññaṁ jīvaṁ aññaṁ sarīran”ti vā, “hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti vā, “na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti vā, “hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti vā, “neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā”ti vā. Yā evarūpā diṭṭhi diṭṭhigataṁ …pe… vipariyāsaggāho—ayaṁ vuccati “diṭṭhāsavo”.
      Sabbāpi micchādiṭṭhi diṭṭhāsavo.

      The above phrases are exactly the same thing as dasavatthukā antaggāhikā diṭṭhi.

      Vb17 321.1
      Tattha katamā dasavatthukā antaggāhikā diṭṭhi? Sassato lokoti vā, asassato lokoti vā, antavā lokoti vā, anantavā lokoti vā, taṁ jīvaṁ taṁ sarīranti vā, aññaṁ jīvaṁ aññaṁ sarīranti vā, hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇāti vā, na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇāti vā, hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇāti vā, neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇāti vā—ayaṁ dasavatthukā antaggāhikā diṭṭhi.

      These ten items can be classified into three categories as shown below.

      Loka

      • sassato loko
      • asassato loko
      • antavā loko
      • anantavā loko

      Jiva

      • taṁ jīvaṁ taṁ sarīran
      • aññaṁ jīvaṁ aññaṁ sarīran

      Nibbana

      • hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇa
      • na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇa
      • hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇa
      • neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇa

      Thus, ditthi asava can be considered as wrong views regarding loka, jiva, and nibbana.

      Someone being a Sotapanna means that they have eradicated ditthi asava.

      That is, they have correct views regarding loka, jiva, and nibbana.

      The ten items of antaggahika ditthi are also statements about the abyakata topic.

      SN 44.8 1.3

      kiṁ nu kho, bho gotama, sassato loko”ti?

      “Abyākataṁ kho etaṁ, vaccha, mayā: ‘sassato loko’ti …pe….

      “Kiṁ pana, bho gotama, ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti?

      “Etampi kho, vaccha, abyākataṁ mayā: ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti.

      So what is the resolution of the abyakata issue for someone who is a sotapanna?

      The answer is discussed in the Kiṁdiṭṭhika sutta. AN 10.93

      This sutta involves Anāthapiṇḍika debating with those who hold abyakata views.

      The noteworthy point is that the correct response to the ten antaggahika ditthi, such as sassato loko or asassato loko, appears in the following phrase.

      14.1Yaṁ kho, bhante, kiñci bhūtaṁ saṅkhataṁ cetayitaṁ paṭiccasamuppannaṁ tadaniccaṁ. Yadaniccaṁ taṁ dukkhaṁ. ‘Yaṁ dukkhaṁ taṁ netaṁ mama, nesohamasmi, nameso attā’ti—evametaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya sudiṭṭhaṁ. Tassa ca uttari nissaraṇaṁ yathābhūtaṁ pajānāmī”ti.

      From this tipitaka reference, it can be understood that the phrase “Yadaniccaṁ taṁ dukkhaṁ. ‘Yaṁ dukkhaṁ taṁ netaṁ mama, nesohamasmi, nameso attā’ti” is sufficient to convey correct understanding regarding loka, jiva, and nibbana.

      Therefore, merely pointing out impermanence is not sufficient to explain anicca. Because you can’t learn about loka, jiva, and nibbana properly with just such an explanation. By the same logic, it is also incorrect to understand anatta as not-self.

    • #49501
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yes. The concepts of anicca and anatta embed the critical idea that craving things in this world only leads to suffering.

      • Nibbana (Arahanthood) is the end of suffering. It is not the end of a human, a Deva, an animal, or a Brahma; suffering continues as long as one of those labels can be assigned. A Buddha or an Arahant does not belong to any of those categories.
    • #50297
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      Phassa can be divided into neutral phassa and contaminated samphassa. Neutral phassa can only be experienced through indriya. With Abhidhamma, we can deal with this in finer level. Because Abhidhamma is a tool that explains all the details about everything. Let me give an example.

      “When the eyes capture an image of a tree, that image is processed by the brain and then passed along to the cakkhu pasāda rūpa, which is in the mental body or manōmaya kāya. In the case of a human or an animal, manōmaya kāya is the same as gandhabba.”

      The above sentence is quoted from #7 of Contact Between Āyatana Leads to Vipāka Viññāna. Let me connect the above process with a neutral phassa and explain it in more detail.

      The definition of phassa is a contact between external rupa and internal rupa. Therefore, it is not actually the tree that comes into contact with the eye, but rather the information about the tree’s shape that enters the physical eye through light. This information is then converted by the brain into data that the pasada rupa can read. This data flows to the pasada rupa via kirana wave, and it is precisely this very subtle bundle of information, as an energy wave, that contacts the internal rupa as an external rupa. In other words, when considering the collision process between the external rupa and the internal rupa, we can see that the external rupa that collides with the pasada rupa is also just suddhatthaka. This implies that the phassa occurring through neutral indriya is an Abhidhammic process.

      From these observations, we can understand that external rupa and external ayatana are fundamentally different. This is because external rupa belongs to rupa in the paramattha dhamma, while external ayatana belongs to nama. Therefore, the two cannot be interchanged.

      I understand up to this point. If there are any mistakes in what I have written so far, I would appreciate it if you could point them out.

      I cautiously speculate that phassa arising from indriya might not be discussed at all in Paticca Samuppada. This is because what was previously known as neutral PS, Abyakata PS, was actually explaining the minor kamma generation process known as purana kamma.

      In fact, neutral phassa can only be explained in abhidhamma, not in PS. This is because all terms in PS are related to the contamination or purification of the mind. Since phassa of indriya is unrelated to both of them, it has little relevance to PS.

      However, this does not mean that there are things in the world that PS does not explain. It simply means that neutral phassa through indriya is in a different subject from dukkha samudaya or dukkha nirodha. It’s more like just calculating, rather than contemplating.

      The statement “sun is not a planet” is astronomically true. And “the sun is anicca” is a Dhammically true statement. Both are true and they’re talking about the sun, but astronomy is not Buddha Dhamma. The same logic applies here. (Of course, Abhidhamma IS Buddha Dhamma.) That’s the reason even if one is good at Abhidhamma, they may not have gotten any magga phala.

    • #50300
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yes. Your summary is good.

      You wrote: “I cautiously speculate that phassa arising from indriya might not be discussed at all in Paticca Samuppada.”

      • That is correct. Phassa and samphassa are entirely different.
      • Phassa is a cetasika that arises in ALL cittas. In contrast, samphassa means “defiled sensory contact,” which appears in Paticca Samuppada.
      • Possible confusion arises due to the uddesa (brief) version of Paticca Samuppada:  “salayatana paccaya phassa.” That really means “salayatana paccaya samphassa.”
      • See “Difference between Phassa and Samphassa.”

      You wrote: “The statement “the sun is not a planet” is astronomically true. And “the sun is anicca” is a Dhammically true statement. Both are true and they’re talking about the sun, but astronomy is not Buddha Dhamma. The same logic applies here. (Of course, Abhidhamma IS Buddha Dhamma.) That’s the reason even if one is good at Abhidhamma, they may not have gotten any magga phala.”

      • That is quite true. Some people know how to recite Abhidhamma, but have not fully comprehended the ideas. My goal is to try to explain Abhidhamma concepts in simple language.
    • #50309
      cubibobi
      Participant

      I think the data flow is like this, using sight as an example:

      External rupa –> physical eyes –> brain –> pasada rupa –> hadaya vatthu (which vibrates 17 times that make up a citta vithi)

      Phassa actually happens at the pasada rupa –> hadaya vatthu, correct? If it is samphassa, then the cittā that arise are contaminated (in 9 stages I believe); and if it’s a neutral phassa then the cittā that arise are not contaminated, such as cittā of an arahant.

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    • #50314
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Cubibobi asked:Phassa actually happens at the pasada rupa –> hadaya vatthu, correct?”

      • Yes. 
      • Good explanation. “Phassa ” takes place at the initial sensory contact. “Samphassa” happens in response to that sensory contact (if the mind attaches to that sensory input.)
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    • #50335
      Lal
      Keymaster

      The following essay is from Dosakkhayo:

      I’ve been contemplating the connection between the Abhidhamma and Paticca Samuppada.
       
      I wonder if the relationship between “sankhara paccaya vinnana” and “vinnana paccaya namarupa” might be describing the javana citta from different perspectives.
       
      Sankhara paccaya vinnana” seems to explain the cumulative effect of the javana citta, while “vinnana paccaya namarupa” describes the formation of the results of the javana citta.
       
      So, “vinnana paccaya namarupa” deals with Tadarammana citta.
       
      If a person becomes more attached to a given arammana, they will generate more citta vithi, feeding namarupa.
       
      I have illustrated this in a diagram with draw.io.
      Figure 1:
      Figure 2:
       
       
      In Figure 1, the weakening of the sixth javana citta is not reflected.
       
      This is because it is a rule specific to the javana citta itself, not in the context of “sankhara paccaya vinnana.”
       
      The “sankhara paccaya vinnana” illustrates that more abhisankhara leads to the growth of a stronger kamma vinnana.
       
      Therefore, both “sankhara paccaya vinnana” and “vinnana paccaya namarupa” deal with the javana citta in different contexts.
       
      It’s similar to the relationship between hours and minutes: both describe time, but each deals with different units.
       
      If there are any mistakes, I would appreciate it if you could point them out. Thank you.
    • #50355
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Thank you for the essay, Dosakkhayo.

      • Because of my travel schedule, I do not have time to comment properly, but the following are some key points.

      1. Your description of a pancadvara citta vithi followed by three manodvara citta vithi is correct.

      2. The whole PS process runs within EACH javana citta, i.e., “avijja paccaya sankhara” to the end.

      3. In subsequent javana cittas, all relevant terms grow in strength. For example, vinnana, namarupa, etc, grow in strength. Furthermore, those changes are taken into account in Tadarammana (T) at the end of each javana series.

      The real-time PS process is discussed in the following section: “Paṭicca Samuppāda During a Lifetime.”

      The changes in Tadarammana (T) are discussed in the posts here: “Search Results for: temporary bhavaṅga state.”

      • For the kind of analysis you did, it is necessary to understand the concept of a “temporary bhavaṅga state.” As more citta vithi run, the mindset (T) changes with the flow of javana citta.

      You can ask questions as you read those posts. Take your time, and don’t rush. It takes time to absorb some of these concepts.

       

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    • #50367
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      It gives me more joy than disappointment. It’s because I realized that there is still so much more to learn. Thank you for the answer, Ven. Lal. If you have time later, I would like to request a detailed explanation on this topic.

    • #50370
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      I summarized what I thought about mundane samma ditthi.

      This is the list of ten types mundane samma ditthi.
      1. atthi dinnaṁ
      2. atthi yiṭṭhaṁ
      3. atthi hutaṁ
      4. atthi sukatadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko
      5. atthi ayaṁ loko
      6. atthi paro loko
      7. atthi mātā
      8. atthi pitā
      9. atthi sattā opapātikā
      10. atthi loke samaṇabrāhmaṇā sammaggatā sammāpaṭipannā, ye imañca lokaṁ parañca lokaṁ sayaṁ abhiññā sacchikatvā pavedentī

      I have categorized it into three as follows:
      ### Kamma
      The 1st, 2nd, and 4th entries deal with kamma.

      – atthi dinnaṁ
      – atthi yiṭṭhaṁ
      Punna kamma has three categories: dana, sila, and bhavana. The 1st and 2nd entries represent the two most fundamental moral principles for living beings: giving to others and being grateful for what one has received from others. These two principles generally encompass meritorious actions. (The 4th entry deals with sila and bhavana.)

      The law of kamma guarantees that good deeds will be rewarded, whether the reward comes immediately or later, when the appropriate conditions (paccaya) are met. This also applies to bad deeds.

      Based on this, we can perform good deeds not based on immediate outcomes but on natural moral principles. This understanding allows us to refrain from reacting angrily to seemingly unjust situations, as they are the result of one’s own past bad kamma coming to fruition.

      The law of kamma does not follow the typical cause-and-effect analysis derived from observing the sequence of events, which often leads to viewing revenge as justice. However, with mundane samma ditthi, we are not blinded by immediate appearances and can understand the essence of events based on natural moral principles. The notion of implementing justice is an illusion because, from a long-term perspective, justice is always guaranteed (but only with proper conditions).

      – atthi sukatadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko
      The 4th entry states that fundamental moral principles are included in natural laws, and the future depends on the choices we make in the present. However, the realization of kamma involves a certain rule called paccaya, and until this condition is fulfilled, the result (vipaka) will not manifest. Thus, we have two types of choices at this stage: choosing what kind of kamma to perform and choosing how to change the conditions (paccaya).

      It also implies that no one can take responsibility for another person’s actions because no one can perform kamma on behalf of someone else or experience the results (vipaka) of another’s actions. This is the basis of sila and bhavana.

      Attā hi attanō nāthō,
      One is one’s own refuge,

      kō hi nāthō parō siyā?
      How can another be a refuge to one?

      ### Manomaya Kaya
      The 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th entries deal with manomaya kaya.

      – atthi ayaṁ loko
      – atthi paro loko
      5th and 6th discuss separate layers for the animal realm and human realm. If there weren’t, there would be no need to differentiate between ayam loko and paro loko. These separate layers imply that the manomaya kaya (mind-made body) can exist independently of the physical body after death. In other words, these entries is about the mechanism by which the manomaya kaya is separated from the physical body.

      – atthi mātā
      – atthi pitā
      7th and 8th highlight the special reasons for the existence of mother and father. This is related to the rarity and preciousness of a human manomaya kaya (gandabba) obtaining a physical body. Therefore, the kamma done towards parents is not equal to that done towards ordinary people. Understanding this is equivalent to understanding the mechanism by which the manomaya kaya obtains a physical body.

      – atthi sattā opapātikā
      9th states that the general form of existence for all beings is the manomaya kaya. This has two major implications.

      First, the scope of life extends beyond mere cellular molecules to levels finer than atoms. Second, the manomaya kaya is the primary body, and the physical body is secondary.

      ### Purification of Mind
      The 3rd and 10th entries deal with the purification of mind

      – atthi hutaṁ
      3rd discusses the relationship between meritorious actions and the level of mind. The purer the recipient’s mind, the greater the merit. This implies that the degree of purity of mind is an important measure in Dhamma. Arahant is the most valuable being in this regard because they have eradicated all defilements. In other words, there is a certain correlation between morality and the level of mind.

      – atthi loke samaṇabrāhmaṇā sammaggatā sammāpaṭipannā, ye imañca lokaṁ parañca lokaṁ sayaṁ abhiññā sacchikatvā pavedentī
      10th primarily signifies the existence of monks and Brahmins who can see the rebirth process. This implies that the purer the mind, the better one can understand the world. In fact, iddhi can only be acquired in a state of mind free from akusala, even if temporarily, such as in jhana.

      In conclusion, someone with mundane samma dithi understands that these three topics are important.

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    • #50387
      Jittananto
      Participant

       Hi dosakkhayo great essay !!!🙏🏿

       

      Dosakkhayo : It also implies that no one can take responsibility for another person’s actions because no one can perform kamma on behalf of someone else or experience the results (vipaka) of another’s actions. This is the basis of sila and bhavana.

       

      Me : Does that mean that it is useless to perform good deeds and transfer them to apaya beings like petas (hungry ghosts) in order to alleviate their suffering?

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    • #50391
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      Thank Jittananto!

      Jittananto: Does that mean that it is useless to perform good deeds and transfer them to apaya beings like petas (hungry ghosts) in order to alleviate their suffering?

      Me: No. If a peta receives transferred merit, it means that the conditions for the manifestation of that peta’s past kamma have been met. Therefore, in this case, the peta has received the vipaka of their own kamma.

      Also, we can arrange the conditions for them to get a good vipaka by giving things or merits to others (such as petas). It is a good thing to do.

      What I said should be understood only in the context of sila and bhavana. Because it gives us only the direction to go. One has a responsibility to correct oneselves. And that is the meaning of it.

      Thank you

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    • #50393
      Jittananto
      Participant

       Dosakkhayo : No. If a peta receives transferred merit, it means that the conditions for the manifestation of that peta’s past kamma have been met. Therefore, in this case, the peta has received the vipaka of their own kamma.

       

      Me: Yes,that makes senses  

      Thank you !!

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    • #50431
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      Four Noble Truths – Suffering and Its Elimination

      I recently attempted to write an article summarizing Lokkuttara Samma Ditthi. However, today, while reading this post, I realized that everything I intended to write has already been articulated here. I cannot emphasize enough the importance of this post. I sincerely hope that every being can read this post at least once. sadhu! sadhu! sadhu!

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    • #50449
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      Changes in Perspective on Life by Including Manomaya Kaya in One’s Worldview.

      uccheda ditthi

      • Genetics provides an explanation that the origin of certain similarities observed between different individuals (especially parent and child) lies in the material that mediates between them.
      • Evolution theory explains the diversity of species through the acquisition and loss of genetic traits.
      • Evolutionary psychology views changes in material structure as the origin of mental phenomena.
      • Biology regards the cell as the smallest unit of life.
      • These four fields naturally seek the origin of biological structures in matter.
        • As a logical result, they assume the existence of the first cell(LUCA).
          • But, it does not have any evidence!
      • All four follow the notion that ‘matter precedes mind,’ which is uccheda ditthi.

      mundane samma ditthi

      • Establishing mundane samma ditthi involves escaping this one-sided view.
      • This is achieved through accepting the concept of manomaya kaya.
        • How does manomaya kaya help us understand the phenomenon of life?
      • Genetic phenomena between parents and children are the result of two individual lifestreams with similar gati forming a specific relationship.
        • Therefore, there is no need for a material substance to transmit the structure of their similarities.
      • The distinction between species is determined by the level of mind, not by material structure (genetic traits).
      • The physical form changes according to the level of mind.
        • Hence, the manifestation of a species should be seen as a manifestation of conditions rather than speciation.
      • Mental phenomena are the origin of changes in material structure.
        • This directly opposes evolutionary psychology.
          • Evolutionary psychology explains selfishness as the core motivation for realizing all other virtues, suggesting that even empathy is merely a tool for passing on genes.
            • However, in reality, virtues merely have the incidental effect of helping the species survive longer.
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    • #50535
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      I believe that the core keyword of Buddha Dhamma is addiction.

      Tanha and upadana explain the mechanism of addiction.

      Avijja represents the ignorance that leads one to fall into addiction.

      Sankhara, vinnana, and namarupa describe how addiction is reinforced.

      Salayatana, phassa, and vedana illustrate how stimuli cues are received.

      Bhava and jati explain how addiction results within an extended worldview.

      Dukkhakhanda portrays all suffering as a manifestation of the consequences of addiction.

      Sila is broken because of kama assada.

      Panna is seeing the adinava of kama assada.

      Niramisa sukha is felt when one is free from addiction.

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    • #50536
      Lal
      Keymaster

      That is correct. In one way of looking at the “big picture,” attachment to sensory inputs or arammana  (with tanha and upadana) is the root cause of suffering.

      • The amazing fact (that no one else has fully explained with Paticca Samuppada) is that our craving for “worldly pleasures” is based on a grand illusion; our perceptions (saññā) are inherently distorted. The Buddha called saññā a mirage in the “Pheṇapiṇḍūpama Sutta (SN 22.95),” and we discussed that in the post, “Sotapanna Stage and Distorted/Defiled Saññā.”
      • Most sukha/dukkha (or, more precisely, somanassa/domanassa) vedana are “mind-made” based on “distorted saññā” built into our physical bodies (via Paticca Samuppada.)

      The main points are as follows:

      1. Everything in this world is made of “suddhāṭṭhaka” (sometimes written as suddhāshtaka). 

      • Suddhāṭṭhaka (“suddha” for “pure” or fundamental” + “aṭṭha” or “eight”) means a unit of matter consisting of eight fundamental entities: Four of these belong to the “bhūta” stage of pathavi, āpo, tejo, and vāyo arising due to avijjā. The other four of vaṇṇa,  gandha, rasa, and oja arise due to taṇhā.

      2. The latter four entities are the ones giving rise to the perception (saññā) or sense of “pleasure” in worldly things: 

      • Vaṇṇa, gandha, rasa, and oja, respectively, make some things give rise to attractive sights, smells, tastes, and “generative power.” 
      • The basic ideas are discussed in “The Origin of Matter – Suddhāṭṭhaka.

      3. The point mentioned in #2 gives rise to a “distorted saññā” of “tasty foods, beautiful sights, pleasing sounds, etc. 

      I will gradually discuss this profound point in detail in upcoming posts.

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    • #50537
      cubibobi
      Participant

      — From dosakkhayo:
      “I believe that the core keyword of Buddha Dhamma is addiction.”

      I found contemplation in terms of addiction or intoxication is of big benefit. We can relate to this since we are familiar with being addicted to one thing or another, and experiencing relief (niramisa sukha) of breaking free from the addiction.

      Addiction or intoxication is majji, and I’d like to share two posts that have helped me understand this concept.— (1)

      Majjhimā Patipadā – Way to Relinquish Attachments to this World

      Bullet #1 explains the deeper aspect of the Path as more than just a “middle path”, but a path free of intoxication.— (2)

      The Five Precepts – What the Buddha Meant by Them
      Bullet #8 explains the deeper aspect of the 5th precept as also avoiding being intoxicated.

      The 5th precept is so easily misunderstood as just abstaining from alcohol or substances. In my native language, this precept is called the “wine precept”. There are people who follow this precept so strictly, to the point of not taking even a sip of champagne at a wedding, but wantonly breaking other precepts, like musavada for example, without giving it another thought. This precept, when not understood in its deeper aspect, easily leads to silabata paramasa.

      Best,
      Lang

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    • #50545
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      I look forward to your next post with great anticipation!

      Thank cubibobi for the reference!

    • #50688
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      Recently, I have come to realize that my understanding of Paticca Samuppada might be incorrect. However, identifying the exact point of error has been challenging, so I wish to re-examine the very basics. I hope you would kindly understand, even if I ask very elementary questions. In “cakkunca paticca rupe ca uppajjati cakkuvinnanam,” is “cakku vinnana” regarded as “bahidda vinnana”?

      Regarding “namarupa paccaya salayatana,” I understand it as the stage where the sangati generated in the previous step (vinnana paccaya namarupa) are reflected as ayatana. In this process, the mind becomes defiled, and the indriya are used as ayatana. Is this understanding correct?

    • #50695
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Cakkhu viññāṇa in “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhu viññāṇaṃ“ is already an ajjhatta viññāṇa. However, nava kamma (with strong kammic energy) accumulation starts after the “tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso” step.

      It is explained better in the newer post, “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.” See #6 of that post.

      • I need to go out for a few hours. You can read those two posts carefully and ask further questions. I will have more time later to explain it better if you have questions.

       

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      • #50697
        dosakkhayo
        Participant

        I’m feeling quite tired at the moment, so I will take a rest. I plan to post a question on the forum in 9 hours. Thank you for your understanding.

    • #50759
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation

      #9

      The mind of anyone born a human (including an Arahant) starts at the kāma dhātu stage. That physical body (and the brain) will automatically present to the mind an “altered rupa” instead of a “true representation of the external rupa.”

      So, the altered rupa is bahidda rupa, and cakkuvinneyya rupa is ajjhatta rupa?

    • #50762
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Dosakhayo asked: “So, the altered rupa is bahidda rupa, and cakkuvinneyya rupa is ajjhatta rupa?”

      Yes. That can be understood as follows.

      1. The “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhu viññāṇaṃ“ includes both the bahiddha viññāṇa and the ajjhatta viññāṇa stages. 

      2. In #10 of that post, one way to describe the gradual attachment process (within a citta vithi) is stated: “Kāma dhātuṁ, bhikkhave, paṭicca uppajjati kāma saññā, kāma saññaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāma saṅkappokāma saṅkappaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmacchando,..” Here, ““Kāma dhātuṁ, bhikkhave, paṭicca uppajjati kāma saññā” represent the bahiddha viññāṇa. Then, “kāma saññaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāma saṅkappo” is the ajjhatta viññāṇa stage. That ajjhatta viññāṇa stage will occur for anyone with kāma rāga anusaya/samyojana, i.e., anyone below the Anagami stage.

      3. That same process is described differently in the “Chachakka Sutta (MN 148)” (as described in the other post I mentioned “Indriya Make Phassa and Āyatana Make Samphassa”) as “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhu viññāṇaṃ, tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso.”

      4. Both the bahiddha viññāṇa and the ajjhatta viññāṇa stages are included in the Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhu viññāṇaṃ” step in that representation.

      5. After the kāma saññaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāma saṅkappo” step comes kāma saṅkappaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmacchando.” This is the second step (tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso) in the other representation of the same event: “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhu viññāṇaṃ, tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso.” This step happens based on the “saṅ gati” present at that moment. Thus, even for the same person, the level of attachment depends on the state of the mind at that moment.

      6. Note the difference in #2 and #5.

      • #2: Regardless of the mindset, ANYONE below the Anagami stage WILL generate the ajjhatta viññāṇa.
      • #5: However, a strong attachment to the sensory input with kāmacchanda may not happen for someone in a calm mindset trying to be mindful. Controlling this step with “mindfulness” (sila) can gradually eliminate kāma rāga anusaya/samyojana. Of course, cultivating wisdom (paññā) is also needed. As one cultivates paññā and sila, one’s mind will get to samādhi. That, in turn, will help further cultivate paññā and sila, and so on to elevate all three: sila, samādhi, paññā. Eventually, it is paññā that breaks the kāma rāga anusaya/samyojana. That is the Satipatthana/Anapanasati Bhavana!
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    • #50764
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      Thank you. Your answer was sufficient. If I have any more questions, I will ask again.

      Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!

    • #50768
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      1. Khandhas are all mental.
      In other words, the khandhas of rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana are all mental.

      2. Rupakkhandha refers to information of rupa.
      My current understanding of the distinctions is as follows:

      Bahidda rupa (distorted, altered rupa), ajjhatta rupa (XX vinneyya rupa)

      3. Vedanakkhandha refers to the processing of sensory input
      It is connected to tanha.
      I currently understand the distinctions as follows:

      Sukha vedana, dukha vedana, adukhamasukha vedana

      Bahidda vedana, ajjhatta vedana

      4. Sannakkhandha refers to the contextualization of sensory input
      It is connected to avijja.
      I currently understand the distinctions as follows:

      Bahidda sanna, ajjhatta sanna
      Kama sanna, rupa sanna, arupa sanna

      5. Sankharakkhandha refers to how one reacts to rupa.
      It especially addresses whether or not kammic energy is generated.
      My current understanding of the distinctions is as follows:

      Bahidda sankhara (kiriya), ajjhatta sankhara (abhisankhara)

      6. Vinnanakkhandha synthesizes the above three (nama).
      My current understanding of the distinctions is as follows:

      Bahidda vinnana (vipaka vinnana), ajjhatta vinnana (kamma vinnana)

      7. Through the khandhas, the following can be understood:
      Rupakkhandha and vinnanakkhandha help distinguish between nama and rupa.
      Vedanakkhandha helps identify the cause of tanha (craving) (samphassa ja vedana).
      Sannakkhandha helps resolve avijja (ignorance) (by cultivating anicca, dukkha, anatta sanna).
      Sankharakkhandha helps understand the formation of karmic energy (abhisankhara).

      Please let me know if there are any errors in my understanding.

      • This reply was modified 1 week ago by dosakkhayo.
    • #50770
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yes. Those are good summaries.

      #6 can be improved.

      • Vinnanakkhandha synthesizes the above four (nama and rupa).
      • Bahidda vinnana (vipaka vinnana) = only nama;  ajjhatta vinnana (kamma vinnana) is the beginning of making namarupa.
      • That “namarupa formation” enhances as the mind gets further contaminated in subsequent steps.

      #7: Rupakkhandha and vinnanakkhandha help distinguish between nama, rupa, and namarupa (with kamma vinnana).

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #50787
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!

    • #50810
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      I feel that Dhamma deals with the infinite. Vipassana seems to teach us how to properly see the infinite nature and life. In this regard, Buddha Dhamma speaks of how to navigate without losing our way within the infinite. Within this infinity(samsara), people only see a part of the whole, each creating their own picture and believing in it. However, this cannot encompass the whole. Only the Buddha can see the entirety, and we can hear and understand this from the Buddha or his disciples (Buddha savaka).

      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #50812
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      Purana Kamma

      This two steps are where cakkhunca paticca rupe ca uppajjati cakkhuvinnanam occurs.

      step 1: bahidda vinnana “dhatu -> sanna”

      • sensory input: nimitta
      • using indriya
      • on: bahidda rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana
        • altered rupa
        • bahidda vedana + distorted sanna → giving sensory input experiences
          • It depends on the quality of “natural bhavanga state”
      • It is not pabhassara citta!
      • anusaya/samyojana works in this step. Kāma Guṇa – Origin of Attachment (Tanhā) #12
      • patisamvedi step
      • only mano sankhara

      Q1. Does pabhassara citta start in kama or rupa or arupa dhatu? Or it just does not start in any dhatu?

      • My guess: it probably does not attach to any dhatu.

      step 2: ajjhatta vinnana “sanna ->sankappa”

      • sensory input: arammana
      • using ayatana
      • on: ajjhatta rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana
        • XX vineyya rupa. ex) cakku vineyya rupa
        • samphassa ja vedana (somanassa and domanassa)
        • defiled and mind-made sensory input experiences
      • bhava starts in here.
      • sangati begin working in this step. Kāma Guṇa – Origin of Attachment (Tanhā) #12
      • only mano sankhara too.

      Nava Kamma

      step 3: tanha paccaya upadana “sankappa -> chanda”

      step 4: ?? “chanda -> parilaha”

      • mano abhisankhara
      • vinnana get more conteminating
      • state of agitation

      Q2. What should I call this step?

      step 5: avijja paccaya sankhara (stronger than step 4) “parilaha -> pariyesana”

      • vaci and kaya abhisankhara
      • one is fully engaged with making new kamma

      ______

      Pdf file:Dosakkhayo – Purana and Nava Kamma.”

      ______

      Please let me know if there are any mistakes or if any additional information is needed. Thank you.

      • This reply was modified 5 days ago by dosakkhayo.
    • #50814
      Lal
      Keymaster

      1. Q1. Does pabhassara citta start in kama or rupa or arupa dhatu? Or it just does not start in any dhatu?

      • Pabhassara citta is not present in any dhatu (kama dhatu, rupa dhatu, or arupa dhatu; those are the “initial state of mind upon receiving a sensory input or arammana.) 
      • To clarify further, the mind of someone born in kama loka (humans, including Arahants who were born human) will always fall on kama dhatu first. A rupa loka Brahma‘s mind will first fall on rupa dhatu, and an arupa loka Brahma‘s mind will first fall on arupa dhatu.
      • Furthermore, if a human is in a rupacavara jhana, his mind will also fall on rupa dhatu upon receiving a new arammana

      This figure from “Vipariṇāma – Two Meanings.”

      • As you can see, the “pabhassara citta” does not fall into any of the three “dhatu” or “loka.”
      • It is experienced only at the Arahant-phala moment or later in “Arahant-phala samapatti.”

      _______

      2. step 2: ajjhatta vinnana “sanna ->sankappa”

      • This description is correct.
      • The bahidda vinnana has “distorted sanna” but no defilements (raga, dosa, moha.) 
      • We mainly restrict our general discussions to kama dhatu, especially in the following.
      • Bahidda vinnana becomes an ajjhatta vinnana in a split second for anyone with the five lower samyojana. Thus, an Arahant or Anagami would not enter the “ajjhatta vinnana” stage.

      The above chart is from “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.”

      Once get into the “ajjhatta vinnana” stage, a mind can further contaminate rapidly via several stages, as shown in the above chart.

      • Those steps are listed in #10 of the above post. They are essentially the same as Dosakkhayo listed in steps 1 through 5.
      • That “expansion” is indicated in the chart. 
      • Up to the “tanha paccaya upadana” step, the expansion is slow, i.e., kamma accumulation is slow. But at the “tanha paccaya upadana” step, one starts accumulating kamma consciously (with vaci and kaya abhisankhara.) That is why it is called the “nava (new) kamma” stage. Kammic energies to bring vipaka in future lives are generated here.
      • As shown in the chart, kamma accumulation accelerates with kamacchanda, kama parilaha, etc., ending with dasa akusala.
      • See “Taṇhā Paccayā Upādāna – Critical Step in Paṭicca Samuppāda” for details.

       

      • This reply was modified 5 days ago by Lal.
      1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #50832
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      I just reviesed some points.

      Purana Kamma

      This two steps are where cakkhunca paticca rupe ca uppajjati cakkhuvinnanam occurs.

      step 1: bahidda vinnana “dhatu -> sanna”

      • sensory input: nimitta
      • using indriya
      • on: bahidda rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana
        • altered rupa
        • bahidda vedana + distorted sanna → giving sensory input experiences
          • It depends on the quality of “natural bhavanga state”
      • It is not pabhassara citta!
      • anusaya/samyojana works in this step. Kāma Guṇa – Origin of Attachment (Tanhā) #12
      • patisamvedi step

      step 2: ajjhatta vinnana “sanna ->sankappa”

      • sensory input: arammana
      • using ayatana
      • on: ajjhatta rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana
        • XX vineyya rupa. ex) cakku vineyya rupa
        • samphassa ja vedana (somanassa and domanassa)
        • defiled and mind-made sensory input experiences
      • bhava starts in here.
      • sangati begin working in this step. Kāma Guṇa – Origin of Attachment (Tanhā) #12
      • kamaguna works in this step.
      • raga or dosa(patigha) patisamvedi step starts in here

      Nava Kamma

      step 3: tanha paccaya upadana “sankappa -> chanda”

      step 4: avijja paccaya sankhara “chanda -> parilaha”

      • vinnana get more conteminating
      • state of agitation

      step 5: avijja paccaya sankhara “parilaha -> pariyesana” (stronger than step 4) 

      • vaci and kaya abhisankhara
      • one is fully engaged with making new kamma
    • #50833
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Very good!

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