March 26, 2023 at 7:54 am #44094Yash RSParticipant
How is it possible that a Deva who is a Sakadagami, with his mind having sensuality will lose everything at the time of death and attain nibbana? How will the remaining Sanyojana be removed instantly?
Same for an Anagami Brahma?
March 26, 2023 at 8:50 am #44102
“How is it possible that a Deva who is a Sakadagami, with his mind having sensuality will lose everything at the time of death and attain nibbana?”
There are two problems with the question:
1. A Deva, who is a Sakadagami, can attain Nibbana at any time, not just at the time of death.
2. Now, if we remove that part the question becomes, “How is it possible that a Deva who is a Sakadagami, with his mind having sensuality, attain nibbana?”
- Here, can’t we ask a similar question? “How is it possible that a human, with his mind having sensuality attain nibbana?”
- Any sentient being can attain Nibbana once the futility and danger of living in this world are understood FULLY.
- Of course, those in the apayas are incapable of comprehending Buddha Dhamma.
P.S. However, it is true that a Deva or a Brahma, who has not attained any magga phala, would have difficulty reaching even the Sotapanna Anugami stage (compared to a human.) It is easier for a human to see the futility and danger of living in this world because one can constantly see the suffering in the human and animal realms.
March 26, 2023 at 10:39 am #44104Yash RSParticipant
But if we take a general case of a Sakadagami Deva who exhausted his lifetime, now why doesn’t he become a Deva again? but attains nibbana?
He still has the remaining Samyojana in his mind and to be free from future births one must remove all Sanyojana if I am correct.
So why is he becoming free from all births if he has sensuality in his mind?
March 26, 2023 at 1:35 pm #44105
These are what are called “dhamma niyāmatā.”
- A Sotapanna WILL attain Arahanthood within seven bhava.
- A Sakadagami WILL be born in kāma loka only once (in a Deva realm.)
- An Anāgāmi WILL attain Arahanthood in the suddhāvāsa (rupāvacara Brahm realms reserved for Anāgāmis.)
This is why Buddhas can also predict when a Bodhisatta with “niyata vivarana” will become a Buddha at a specific time.
March 26, 2023 at 4:47 pm #44107DanielStParticipant
If I understand the question of Yash RS correctly, I want to add one thing that might be relevant. As far as I remember, the lifetime as a deva is not always the same length, but it has a maximum length. Therefore, as soon as that Sakadagami Deva attains higher stage, the mind will not burden the Deva body anymore and be instantly reborn as Brahma in Rupa loka or, if attaining Arahanthood, cease to exist in this world.
So, it is not that the lifetime is always fixed and that “somehow” the Magga phala happens at that time but rather due to the “dhamma niyamata” the Sakadagami has fulfilled the Path at some point and then that Deva bhava stops immediately as a consequence.
I remember there is also a law that all of kama loka will be void of Ariyas at the end of the 5000 years, so due to the perfections of the path any Ariya will attain anagami stage up to that point and “move up”/be reborn at Rupa loka (or not reborn anymore in case of Arahanthood)
April 14, 2023 at 2:21 pm #44357dosakkhayoParticipant
Someone achieved an anagami stage and died. He still has a rupa raga. He was born in suddhāvāsa. However, he didn’t make it to remove the rupa raga until the end of that given bhava. In this case, in the cuti-patisandhi moment, does he get a new bhava in rupaloka? Or will the rebirth process end?
Same way, if Sakadagami didn’t make it to remove the kama raga completely until the end of that given deva bhava, does he get a new bhava in Kamaloka? Or will the rebirth process end?
I understood the dhamma niyata explanation as soon as I posted the question. So it is like a constant of nature. Empirical observations of it can be made, but we can never know why it is. So it is an acinteyya topic.
April 14, 2023 at 2:56 pm #44359
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