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Kāma Rāga Dominates Rupa Rāga and Arupa Rāga
The six types of kāma guṇa are iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā.
They apply to manoviññeyyā dhammā, too.
“santi, bhikkhave, manoviññeyyā dhammā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā.”
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The above is something you can read and know from the post.
After reading that, I wondered: Do jhanic and samapatti sukha also have the six types of kāma guṇa? Because rupa or arupa brahmas do experience manoviññeyyā dhammā. I guess it probably does.
I think it would be Bv 1.
“Cattāro te asaṅkheyyā,
(3) cakkavāḷā canantakā;
(4) Buddhañāṇaṁ appameyyaṁ,
na sakkā ete vijānituṁ.
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Gad said: “These explanations helped me understand that it is sometimes futile to try to engage in debates with people who are ignorant of the Dhamma. If some people express resistance, it is better to stop.”
Very true! It is good to hear because I’ve been struggling with this problem recently. Thank Gad for writing a great essay!
1 user thanked author for this post.
Thank you for your consideration. I learned a lot from your kind and wise attitude inside words. After reflecting on your words, I realized that the recent questions I asked were overly detailed and non-essential. I was too arrogant to look at what I was doing. I’ve been too obstinate and have defamed other people superfluously. I repent my fault for being arrogant deeply. From now on, I will do what I have to do with modesty. May all the blessings be to Ven. lal and everyone!
OK. If you get a chance, would you please check #16 of Upādāna Paccayā Bhava – Two Types of Bhava?
I wrote it down because I remembered while reading Vibhanga. I may be wrong, but I think we should consider the possibility that sīlabbatupādāna is not the same as bhavupādāna.
Tattha katamaṁ sīlabbatupādānaṁ? Ito bahiddhā samaṇabrāhmaṇānaṁ sīlena suddhi, vatena suddhi, sīlabbatena suddhīti—yā evarūpā diṭṭhi diṭṭhigataṁ diṭṭhigahanaṁ diṭṭhikantāro diṭṭhivisūkāyikaṁ diṭṭhivipphanditaṁ diṭṭhisaññojanaṁ gāho patiṭṭhāho abhiniveso parāmāso kummaggo micchāpatho micchattaṁ titthāyatanaṁ vipariyāsaggāho—idaṁ vuccati sīlabbatupādānaṁ.
Ṭhapetvā sīlabbatupādānañca attavādupādānañca sabbāpi micchādiṭṭhi diṭṭhupādānaṁ.
Considering these texts, sīlabbatupādāna and bhavupādāna could be different things.
Upādāna Paccayā Bhava – Two Types of Bhava
#16 said that those two are the same because Peṭakopadesa 5(43.5) and Nettipakarana 36(12.1) have bhava upādāna listed instead of the sīlabbata upādāna.
But considering the context of those commentaries, it may not be enough reason to read that way.
43.5 Kāmāsavo kāmupādānaṁ, bhavāsavo bhavupādānaṁ, diṭṭhāsavo diṭṭhupādānaṁ, avijjāsavo attavādupādānaṁ, imehi catūhi upādānehi pañcakkhandhā.
But in 43.2, it said: Patthanaganthanaabhisaṅkhārakāyasaṅkhāraṇaṁ bhavāsavassa lakkhaṇaṁ.
Establishing to make kaya abhisankhara with ganthana is the lakkhaṇa of bhava asava.
So 43.5 may be a sentence that connects bhava upadana to bhava asava defined in that meaning.
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12.3 dutiye vipallāse ṭhito anāgataṁ bhavaṁ upādiyati, idaṁ vuccati bhavupādānaṁ;
I think the thought process that concluded the below based on the Ne 36 is justifiable. However, considering that there are only two examples of bhavupādānaṁ in Tipitaka, it is difficult to confirm the meaning of it from that context.
#16 of Upādāna Paccayā Bhava – Two Types of Bhava
Those who cultivate anariya jhāna or anariya samāpatti do that because of their desire to be born in a Brhama realm; they follow certain moral conduct (sīla) with sīlabbata upādāna because they have the desire to be reborn with bhava upādāna.
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To sum up, bhavupādāna might not be equal to sīlabbatupādāna, but a specially defined upādāna written only in Petakopadesa and Nettipakarana.
While looking for a Tipitaka reference to citta vipallāsa, I found a short sentence in Peṭakopadesa that seems to give a good insight into vipallāsa to all.
Tattha manāpike vatthumhi indriyavatthe vaṇṇāyatane vā yo nimittassa uggāho, ayaṁ saññāvipallāso.
Tattha viparītacittassa vatthumhi sati viññatti, ayaṁ cittavipallāso.
Tattha viparītacittassa tamhi rūpe “asubhe subhan”ti yā khanti ruci upekkhanā nicchayo diṭṭhi nidassanaṁ santīraṇā, ayaṁ diṭṭhivipallāso.
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Ps 1.8 quoted in #14 clearly explains that sotapanna(diṭṭhisampanna) removed nicca and atta vipallasa in all levels (ditthi, sanna, citta).
I think Ne 20 could also elaborate on the reason why nicca and atta vipallasa are removed in the sotapanna stage but subha and sukha vipallasa are still remaining. Those are needed to remove by Anapanasati/Satipatthana bhavana meditation.
Taṇhānivutaṁ cittaṁ dvīhi vipallāsehi vipallāsīyati “asubhe subhan”ti “dukkhe sukhan”ti.
Diṭṭhinivutaṁ cittaṁ dvīhi vipallāsehi vipallāsīyati “anicce niccan”ti “anattani attā”ti.
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Q. In recent posts, they said that saññā vipallāsa is completely removed only when one becomes Arahant, so is it wrong that saññā vipallāsa is removed in the Anagami stage?
The remaining akusala of Anagami is only manokamma. This level of akusala is closer to instability caused by rupa’s aññathā characteristics than to evil or immorality in a general meaning. So I guess citta vipallāsa is connected with mana samyojana, uddacca samyojana, and avijja samyojana. Therefore, it seems reasonable for me to explain that Anagami removed saññā vipallāsa and Arahant removed citta vipallāsa(so all vipallāsa is completely gone).
Pe 8 gives some comments worth considering about this topic.
Yaṁ manassa pasādanaṁ, idamassa cittavipallāsappahānanti akusalavipallāsānaṁ vikkhambhanaṁ pahānaṁ paccayo.
OK. I think your answer is enough for me now. What I needed was not the answer to the question, but your convincing attitude, though I didn’t know it when I asked the question. I didn’t mean to test you impolitely. If I asked you in the wrong manner, I sincerely apologize. And thank you for your service.
With metta
Lal said: There is no “left-over” kammic energy (in that Brahma bhava) for a Brahma once his lifetime ends.
OK. Now I look at this problem in another way. Maybe the problem is that I had supposed the hetu of both the anariya Brahma realm and the ariya Brahma realm are in the same category.The rebirth process runs only by Akusala mula PS. So kusala kamma can not be the hetu. And there is no need to cultivate jhana or samapatti to be born in Suddhāvāsā. Because even if Anagami didn’t cultivate jhana or samapatti, if rupa raga samyojana remained, he/she would be born in Suddhāvāsā. So the hetu of the rebirth in the Suddhāvāsā Brahma realm is not equivalent to the hetu of the rebirth in the Anariya Brahma realm.Suddhāvāsā is inside of samsara. And their manomaya kaya is sankhata. Then, what is the hetu of the rebirth in the Suddhāvāsā Brahma realm? Is it kamma bhava? If so, as a logical consequence, it must belong to rupa kamma bhava. If so again, the difference between the hetu of the rebirth in the Suddhāvāsā Brahma realm and the hetu of the rebirth in the Anariya Brahma realm should be clarified. Because it may mean that a certain rupa bhava can be made in another way without cultivating jhana.“Udāyī Sutta (AN 5. 159)” shows how to teach Dhamma properly too.
Dosakkhayo wrote: “That description of namarupa pariccheda ñana belongs to the visuddhimagga.”
- No. Visuddhimagga is not a good resource: “Buddhaghosa’s Visuddhimagga – A Focused Analysis“
- None of my posts ever refer to Visuddhimagga for information!
What I was trying to say is that SIXTEEN TYPES OF INSIGHT KNOWLEDGE (VIPASSANA NANA) IN THERAVADA BUDDHISM is based on Visuddhimagga. I think I wrote it misleadingly. I’m sorry.
That description of namarupa pariccheda ñana belongs to the visuddhimagga. You may want to read this post; Kamma Viññāṇa and Nāmarūpa Paricceda Ñāṇa
