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Thank you for the answer. And I’m sorry for my mistake. I didn’t know that.
This is what lal revised
https://suttacentral.net/an6.97/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none¬es=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latinAnd This is what I first copied.
https://suttacentral.net/an6.97/pli/ms?layout=sidebyside&reference=none¬es=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latinI had cut the front part of link like this then pasted here like this.
https://suttacentral.net/an6.97/pli/msThe reason why I cut the link is that the untidy link code is disturbing my writing, so I wanted to minimize it.
Now I know why I should not cut the link. I’ll keep it from now on.
I read the topic post on Kusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda
Let me write what I understand. I ask you to be excused my out of grammar talking. It’s very difficult for me to construct a sentence while conveying my thought.
One who doesn’t understand Tilakkhana, Paṭicca Samuppāda, Four Noble Truth(I’ll abbreviate these three things as TPF from now on) can not go to stop rebirth process. One just keeps going rebirth endlessly.
In my view, it looks like a revolution of stars. They keep moving but never reach anywhere, just moving and moving on. So, Living without knowing TPF is anatta. There is no final destination. Only repetation of endless painful road. One goes round and round in circles and does not make any progress.
So, I can call one’s attempt with amoha revolves(turn) around avijja in that one can not reach any lokottara achievement.
(Of course, even if it is insufficient to attain nibbana, still have some meaning for setting a enought condition to learning dhamma, but in the this post I’ll leave aside this point to state my view)
But the case of paññā is not same as amoha. Paññā leads us to nibbana. So it is not the motion of revolution. It leads to go off the track of satta. Starting removing avijja is like that. In the Eightfold Path, ra + agga inclination which is continuing revolution is keeping decreasing.
Therefore the terms when we use to describe “amoha knowledge” do not match an achievement by paññā.
So, “It is not a matter of being able to recall what one has learned. That knowledge/understanding stays with the seat of the mind (hadaya vatthu) and is transferred to the next hadaya vatthu when grasping a new bhava.” None of amoha knowledge can make this change. Only paññā can do it.
But also I think I could see the common denominator between paññā and amoha. Those share the same method. Analytical, logical reasoning. I guess. So “It is the paññā cetasika that “represents” amoha.”
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Lal said,
“What do you mean by ” inseparable group” in the last three questions? I am not sure what that means. May be you can give the Pali word for it.”When I wrote that, I had thought that there is something generated or removed by panna in sotapanna’s mind. So I want to know the range of that change. For example, does the detailed knowledge of 31 realms belong to that change? Like that. So what I was trying to refer to by using the word “inseparable group” is the range of the change which happened in sotapanna.
But, I think this question is meaningless now.
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“Before I go any further, were those the unresolved issues? Do the above explanations help? Do they need further clarification?”I think all problems about this topic is solved.
If you want to ask me a question, just ask that question.
– OK. I’m sorry for making the matter too complicated.“Where the 6 primary causes lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha belong to?
the six dhatu? pathavi, apo, tejo, vayo, akasa, vinnana? or elsewhere?”The reason why I asked the question is I had been confused by there is no amoha cetasika.
In that time, it was not clear for me that the six hetu and cetasika overlap each other.
So I tried to find any intersection point between six hetu and another concept.
In the process, I asked the question here. I also thought this question was ridiculous, but I tried it. This wasn’t because I didn’t understand the concept of six dhatu, it was just a try to know the concept of six hetu.
OK. I read all post of Sōtapanna Stage of Nibbāna subsection. And I found an answer of my question.
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Now I think it’s time to ask the question I wrote in the title as I started this thread.What is the knowing which Sotapanna cannot lose even beyond death?
In the forum“saññākkhandha comprises avijja, or saññā of nicca, sukha, atta”
To infer from this, we can say that sotapanna’s saññākkhandha got permanently changed.
We already know, cultivating sanna of any given concept is different with just memorizing the word or description of it.
What I’m curious about in here is following.
I learned that ariya’s achievement is can not regress.
If one died attained sotapanna stage, one will be born in human realm(or higher realm but in here not think about other case).
The punna iddhi is not common phenomenon. It is not ensured that all Sotapanna has punna iddhi.
Without punna iddhi or cultivate jhana and iddhi one cannot access the previous memory.
Nevertheless, whether one have iddhi, the understanding of sotapanna is never lost.
How far is the understanding that is never lost in the future?
First, of course, the tilakkhana, four noble truths, paticca samuppada belong to the inseparable group.
The aveccappasada to Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha also belong to there.
However, the knowledge of Pali words is not there. This is excluded in that there are individual differences. What I’d like to find is universal knowledge which every sotapanna has.
(1) Does knowing about 31 realm belong to the inseparable group?
(2) Does knowing about gandhabba belong to the inseparable group?
(3) Does knowing about abhidhamma belong to the inseparable group?
“Why cannot they be in both categories?
– Defilements are what lead to future births. Those defilements ARE the bad types of cetasika (asobhana cetasika).”The reason why I thought they cannot be in both categories is (i) there is no amoha cetasika (ii) the amoha cetasika is not paññā.
“10. However, amoha does not mean wisdom (paññā)! Amoha is not a cetasika but is a root cause. It is in all kusala citta in the sense that the immoral cetasika of moha is not present at that moment, i.e., the mind is not “covered.””
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But OK. The six hetu and cetasika overlap each other. Now I got it.So amoha is just an absence of moha. Therefore, according to the law that the sobana cetasika and asobana cetasika cannot be together at the same time, when one do kusala or punna kamma there is no moha in one’s mind, because moha is universal asobana cetasika. Thus there is amoha, because of containing no moha. Right?
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“You are confusing paramatta Dhamma with those present in one’s mind. If all paramatta Dhamma must be with a person, they will never attain Nibbana.”I don’t get the context why you tell me that. I’ve already known that all paramatta Dhamma cannot be with a person.
The point that I’m actually confused about is “amoha is the lokiya version of paññā. And paññā is the lokkuttara version of amoha.” This comment is in here. In the korean puredhamma forum
I’m confused because lal said “Amoha is not a cetasika but is a root cause.”
So, to sum up, amoha is not only the absence of moha but also the expression of extent of paññā cetasika. Right?
OK. Then let’s start first with a Sotapanna Anugami becoming a Sotapanna.
A Sotapanna Anugami must attain the Sotapanna stage in given bhava. Is it right?
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The revised version is good. Thank you for the acceptance of my comment.OK. I was confused because I had interpreted the word “primary” as “most important”. But it was actually meant by “most basic” or “not coming from or dependent on something else”. So now I got it. Lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, and amoha do not belong to dhatu. Instead, six dhatu come from the six hetu.
But here is another question.
Those six hetu causes everything in 31 realms. i.e. Paramatta Dhamma(except nibbana) are caused by six hetu.
But lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa (except amoha) is also cetasika.
So I guess there are some contextual differences between the lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa as a cetasika and the lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, and amoha as a six hetu.
Let me know what it is.
OK. From what I understand is hadaya vatthu is the bearer of anusaya. Asavakkhaya happens in here. This certainly helped me understand Gandhabba. Thank you for the good answer lal.
About the “A Sotapanna Anugami will attain the Sotapanna stage before the cuti-patisandhi moment.”
It sounds like a Sotapanna Anugami must attain the Sotapanna stage in given bhava. Is it right? But from what I understand is Sotapanna Anugami has no limit of bhava. After becoming Sotapanna, one is left 7 bhava or less. So I’d like to know about this point.
By the way, the post Dasa Samyōjana – Bonds in Rebirth Process in #10
10. So, it is essential to understand that getting rid of the first three samyōjana involves NOTHING ELSE but comprehending a bit about the true nature of this world, the anicca nature.
Maybe I’m misinterpreting the sentence, in this case there is no problem with it, but the removal of first three samyōjana means the removal of diṭṭhāsava. i.e. It means there is no vipallasa about the anicca. So the statement “a bit about” might be able to have a possibility to mislead to comprehension level of anicca to require becoming sotapanna.
I’m afraid whether I’m pointing out the too minor problem of sentence expression.
I am a Korean who is not familiar with English. When I ask a question on the forum and later someone answers, I often forget to say thank you and it’s a long time before I realize it. Because I used my brain so much to write in English that I lose all my energy after writing. I would like to thank you even now. Thank you both for answering my question.
Please provide the name of the post (like I did above) instead of stating “this post.”
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OK. next time I follow it.
