Uppatti Kamma Bhava

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    • #47795
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      1. A puñña kamma causing rebirth in rupa loka and arupa loka is ānantarika kamma. (case of the anāriya jhānā)

      • So if a human cultivates rupa jhana or arupa samapatti, corresponding kammic energy is stored in rupa kamma bhava or arupa kamma bhava. Suppose they don’t lose their ability to enter a jhana or samapatti until they die (for example, do an apayagami kamma or achieve maggaphala with losing rupa raga or arupa raga). In that case, they must be reborn in corresponding Brahma loka at the next patisandhi moment.

      2. Uppatti kamma bhava is the subset of kamma bhava. See Forum post #37727.

      3. Paccuppanna means paccya + uppanna. Nothing happens if both hetu (root cause) and paccaya (proper condition) are not met.

      My question: Does Brahma only die when they completely exhaust the kammic energy needed to maintain their manomaya kaya? Is there any other way that Brahma dies? I think it is not the only way. Let me tell you why I came to think this way.

      • If Brahma only dies when they completely exhaust the kammic energy needed to maintain their manomaya kaya, then when a given satta is in kama loka, it means there are no kamma bhava in rupa or arupa bhava. Because satta will only be born in Kamaloka once it has exhausted all the energy in the Brahma realms.
      • Suppose an Anagami is in kamaloka, who does not achieve any jhana or samapatti. So, if that assumption(Brahma only dies when they completely exhaust the kammic energy) is correct, there are no kamma bhava(hetu) in rupa and arupa bhava. If the Anagami died without further development, they would be born in Brahma loka which is reserved for Anagami.
      • So they will have a manomaya kaya. And manomaya kaya is sankhata. All sankhata requires hetu and paccaya to arise. In this case, Anagami did not remove rupa raga samyojana and arupa raga samyojana, they met the proper paccaya for rebirth in Brahma realms. But the hetu, the kamma bhava was not prepared.

      So, I think that if Brahma dies in Brahma loka and is reborn in kama loka, it does not mean that all kammic energy in rupa or arupa bhava is completely exhausted. Considering that uppatti kamma bhava is a subset of kamma bhava, there is no reason to think that uppatti kamma bhava‘s exhaustion is kamma bhava‘s exhaustion. So uppatti kamma bhava is not only a subset of kamma bhava but also a proper subset of kamma bhava.

      • So I can’t tell whether my previous assumption is true or false. It is an acinteyya topic. Though, now I think that Brahma only dies when they completely exhaust the kammic energy needed to maintain their manomaya kaya. Because there is no questionable issue about kamma bhava.
      • In fact, until yesterday, I was going to post a question, but I concluded while writing it in English. Still, I think it’s worth sharing with others, so I’m posting it.
       
    • #47797
      Lal
      Keymaster

      1. The reasoning at the top (#1 through #3 are correct).

      However, regarding #3: A Brahma birth (birth of the manomaya kaya of the anariya Brahma) happens at the patisandhi moment based on the conditions at that moment. 

      • Once that sankhata (manomaya kaya of the anariya Brahma) is formed, it will exist until the kammic energy that led to it is exhausted. The exception is if the Brahma attains Arahanthood. Then that manomaya kaya will “burn,” i.e., the Brahma attains Parinibbana.
      • The same goes for the Anagami. If the Anagami attains Arahanthood, Parinibbana will result, i.e., that existence will be terminated.

      2. I hope that helps clarify the issue. Feel free to ask questions if it is not clear.

      • There is no “left-over” kammic energy (in that Brahma bhava) for a Brahma once his lifetime ends. 
      • He will be reborn human, and if he needs to get back to the Brahma realm, he will have to cultivate jhana again.
      • Brahma kammic energy” falls under ” ānantarika,” meaning energy is NOT held in reserve. Any energy existing MUST bring vipaka without delay.
      • Of course, the human physical body can withstand an  ānantarika kamma. That is why a yogi with a jhana will not be reborn right away in a Brahma realm. But when the physical body dies, he will be instantly born a Brahma.
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    • #47798
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      Lal said: There is no “left-over” kammic energy (in that Brahma bhava) for a Brahma once his lifetime ends.

      OK. Now I look at this problem in another way. Maybe the problem is that I had supposed the hetu of both the anariya Brahma realm and the ariya Brahma realm are in the same category.
       
      The rebirth process runs only by Akusala mula PS. So kusala kamma can not be the hetu. And there is no need to cultivate jhana or samapatti to be born in Suddhāvāsā. Because even if Anagami didn’t cultivate jhana or samapatti, if rupa raga samyojana remained, he/she would be born in Suddhāvāsā. So the hetu of the rebirth in the Suddhāvāsā Brahma realm is not equivalent to the hetu of the rebirth in the Anariya Brahma realm.
       
      Suddhāvāsā is inside of samsara. And their manomaya kaya is sankhata. Then, what is the hetu of the rebirth in the Suddhāvāsā Brahma realm? Is it kamma bhava? If so, as a logical consequence, it must belong to rupa kamma bhava. If so again, the difference between the hetu of the rebirth in the Suddhāvāsā Brahma realm and the hetu of the rebirth in the Anariya Brahma realm should be clarified. Because it may mean that a certain rupa bhava can be made in another way without cultivating jhana.
    • #47805
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Dosakkhayo wrote: “The rebirth process runs only by Akusala mula PS. So kusala kamma can not be the hetu.”

      1. Any birth in this world (including any Brahma or Anagami) is due to avijja.

      • Only an Arahant is free of all akusala. That is another way of saying only Arahants are entirely free of avijja.

      2. The Buddha described only Paticca Samuppada (PS.) In the Sutta Pitaka there is no mention of “kusala-mula” or “akusala-mula” PS.

      • PS leads to “temporary existences” within a life (one can act like an animal under some conditions.) Births (uppatti) in other realms can also be described within the same PS. 

      3. If anyone can find any reference to “kusala-mula” or “akusala-mula” PS within the Sutta Pitaka, please let me know.

      • The only place within the Tipitaka that mentions those words is the “Vibhanga Pakarana,” a Commentary. That also does not explain in detail. 
      • Even though I wrote about “kusala-mula” or “akusala-mula” PS in the early years, especially in the past year, I realized that breaking PS into various categories is unnecessary.
      • As we have seen in the recent posts (see, for example, #15 of “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation”), even the separation as Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda and Akusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda processes is just one process that is broken into two parts as purāna and nava kamma stages.
      • The main sutta that describes PS is “Mahānidāna Sutta (DN 15).” Then, there is a series of suttas starting with the “Paṭiccasamuppāda Sutta (SN 12.1).”
      • While other suttas refer to PS, I have seen no mention of “kusala-mula” or “akusala-mula” PS in any of those suttas either. That is because all rebirths can be explained with PS (see #1).

      4. Any  Brahma is born in a Brahma realm because he had cultivated abhisankhara corresponding to that realm.

      • An Anagami is born in a Suddhāvāsā Brahma realm because he still has avijja left to that extent.
      • All rebirths are due to PS starting with “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra.”
      • An Arahant is not reborn in any realm because he has removed all avijja/anusaya/samyojana.
      • I will rewrite/revise some relevant posts when I get the time.

       

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    • #47810
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      OK. I think your answer is enough for me now. What I needed was not the answer to the question, but your convincing attitude, though I didn’t know it when I asked the question. I didn’t mean to test you impolitely. If I asked you in the wrong manner, I sincerely apologize. And thank you for your service.

      With metta

    • #47812
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Everything is fine.

      • It takes time to sort out specific, deeper, issues. 
      • Things become clear as we progress. That has been true for me. 
      • Since we don’t have the Buddha or any Arahants, we need to figure out things as we proceed. Many concepts have been distorted over many centuries.
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