[dosakkhayo]

It is a minor issue.

The recent post Kāma Guṇa – Origin of Attachment (Tanhā) wrote: #9 At the outset of that process, a “defiled viññāna” arises as “bahidda viññāna” and strengthens to “ajjhatta viññāna” via only “kāma saṅkappa” which are“mano kamma.

So both bahidda viññāna and ajjhatta viññāna are different stages of kamma viññāna. Because those are defiled.

Upaya and Upādāna – Two Stages of Attachment

In #5 of the post, it said that “Generating “kāma saññā” happens just before kāma bhava while in the “bahidda viññāṇa” stage. An Arahant‘s mind does not go beyond the “bahidda viññāṇa” to get to the “ajjhatta viññāṇa” stage.”

Arahant cannot have any defilement, so it should be modified. I think it is just a spelling mistake of ‘bahidda kaya’.

[dosakkhayo]

It seems that this thread has not been checked by Lal. Could you please check it?

[Lal]

You are right. I have revised #5 as below:

5. Generating “kāma saññā” at this initial “kāma dhātu stage” does not mean one is already in the “kāma bhava.” Generating “kāma saññā” happens just before kāma bhava while in the “kāma dhātu” stage. An Arahant‘s mind does not go beyond the “kāma dhātu” stage. A kamma (with defiled intention or sañcetanā) must happen to get to the kāma bhava, as the Buddha explained in the “Paṭhamabhava Sutta (AN 3.76).”  

• The “Paṭhamabhava Sutta (AN 3.76)” states “Kāmadhātuvepakkañca, ānanda, kammaṁ nābhavissa, api nu kho kāmabhavo paññāyethā”ti?” OR “If no kamma took place (kammaṁ nābhavissa), would the transition from kāma dhātu to kāma bhava come about?” The answer was “no.” 
• That kamma happens in the “kāmasaññaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmasaṅkappo” step in #1 above. As we know, kamma is done with (abhi)saṅkhāra and “saṅkappa” means “citta saṅkhāra.” 
• As the verse in #1 shows, “kāma saṅkappa” arises (kāma saññaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāma saṅkappo) in the second step. Let us carefully go through the steps involved.

[dosakkhayo]

Q1. May I inquire if ajjhatta kaya and bahidda kaya are the same as ajjhatta vinnana and bahidda vinnana?

Q2. If they are not, are ajjhatta kaya and bahidda kaya the same as ajjhatta ayatana and bahidda ayatana?

Q3. If neither is the case, could you please explain what ajjhatta kaya and bahidda kaya are, as well as what ajjhatta vinnana and bahidda vinnana are?

Previously, I judged this issue to be too subtle and not directly helpful to my practice, so I didn’t inquire further despite my curiosity. However, recently someone else asked about this matter, and I told them that I would ask Lal about it.

P1. One point I would like to highlight is that in the figure of “Upaya and Upādāna – Two Stages of Attachment” post, it is stated that even an Arahant experiences bahidda vinnana, whereas in the #5 of “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation” post, it is stated that an Arahant does not experience it, which is a contradiction.

I would appreciate it if Ven. Lal could resolve this issue.

[Lal]

Q1, Q2, Q3: Ajjhatta kāya = ajjhatta rupa, ajjhatta vedana, ajjhatta sanna, ajjatta sankhara, ajjhatta vinnana AND Bahidda kāya  = bahidda rupa, bahidda vedana, bahidda sanna, bahidda sankhara, bahidda vinnana.

• In other words, ajjhatta and bahidda kāya are parts of the panca upadanakkhandha. In many instances, the Buddha referred to panca upadanakkhandha as “kāya” in the sense of “collection.” For example, “kāye kāyānupassi viharati” refers to the contemplation of panca upādānakkhandha. P.S. In the same way, “vedanāsu vedanānupassi viharati” refers to the contemplation of the types of vedanā in panca upādānakkhandha. “Citte cittānupassi viharati” refers to the contemplation of citta (overall effect of vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana.) “Dhamme dhammānupassi viharati” refers to the contemplation of all those concepts. 
• In the suttas (and in Abhidhamma), each of the entities rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana (components of the pancakkhandha (or panca upadanakkhandha) are shown to have 11 components: atita, anāgata, paccuppanna, ajjhatta, bahiddha, oḷārika, sukhuma, hīna, paṇīta, dūre, santike.
• P.S. Here, “atita, anāgata, paccuppanna” is one way to separate out. Ajjhatta,bahiddha, or oḷārika, sukhuma or hīna, paṇīta or dūre, santike are other ways. There is overlap among them. For example, Ajjhatta rupa includes atita, anāgata, and paccuppanna types/variations of rupa. 

That is discussed in detail for rupa in the post “Difference Between Physical Rūpa and Rūpakkhandha.” (a similar division of 11 types holds for vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana.) The following is extracted from that post:

• Altogether there are 11 types included in rūpakkhandha. The Khandha sutta (SN 22.48) (among many other suttā) summarizes what is included in rūpakkhandha. “Yaṃ kiñci, bhikkhave, rūpaṃ atītā­nāgata­pac­cup­pan­naṃ (atita, anāgata, paccuppanna) ajjhattaṃ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṃ vā sukhumaṃ vā hīnaṃ vā paṇītaṃ vā yaṃ dūre santike vā, ayaṃ vuccati rūpakkhandho.”
• The 11 types are past, future, current, internal, external, coarse, subtle, good, bad, far, and near.

This is a bit complex but essential issue. It took me some time to figure out the details. I may have made some contradictory statements in the two posts you mentioned. I will take a look at them and make the necessary corrections ASAP. Thank you for pointing them out.

• This is why I plan to discuss these aspects in more detail in the upcoming posts. (A bit more understanding of Abhidhamma can help, so I am now spending some time on that aspect.) They are deeper aspects that connect the “distorted sanna” concept with Satipatthana/Anapanasati. 
• I know that you are trying hard to get a handle on these issues. I assure you that I will get into these issues. But please keep posting comments so I know which areas/concepts need more clarification. 

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dosakkhayo

[dosakkhayo]

The progression of mental defilement moves from bahidda to ajjhatta. Therefore, I speculate that ajjhatta kaya is a more personalized experience than bahidda kaya because it is further colored by vinnana. It’s like putting on tinted glasses over regular glasses. Is this correct?

Is the fact that an Arahant does not have bahidda kaya related to the idea that the citta is only defiled up to the third stage(mānasaṃ) of momentary defilement?

I would like to know about the defiling mechanism from bahidda to ajjhatta. What changes when it intensifies from bahidda to ajjhatta?

[Lal]

An Arahant does generate the bahidda kaya with bahidda vinnana. I need to revise the figure and #5 of “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation” post. The revised figure is shown below. Let me know if there are remaining questions so that I can answer them when I revise that post.

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dosakkhayo

[dosakkhayo]

OK. Then bahidda vinnana is NOT kamma vinnana. And it does not generate any kammic energy but only transfer the information of the given rupa.

I am curious whether the term ‘kamacchanda’ in this context is different from the ‘kamacchanda’ in ‘panca nivarana’. In my personal opinion, they are different because the latter represents the cumulative effect of the former.

[Lal]

Yes.  Bahidda vinnana is NOT kamma vinnana; bahidda vinnana is a vipaka vinnana.

• Kamacchanda is the same everywhere. It is a strong attachment to sensual pleasures.

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dosakkhayo

[dosakkhayo]

However, in this context, kamacchanda is also applicable to akusala kamma in mano sankhara. I believe that it is difficult to have a desire as strong as kamacchanda with only mano sankhara. What are your thoughts on this point?

[Lal]

All akusala kamma start as mano sankhara. The following is important to know in reference to the “javana citta analysis” you are investigating.

• Once the mind decides to act on an arammana at the votthapana stage, seven javana cittas flow. 
• The attachment to the arammana (and one’s feelings about it) increases with each javana citta up to the fifth and then tapers off in the sixth and the seventh. It is like a runner getting started, accelerating, then slowing down, and stopping at the end. 
• First, mano sankharas dominate the first two javana citta. Vaci sankharas start in the third and get stronger in the fourth leading to speech (vaci kamma). The fifth javana is the strongest, and one does kaya kamma with kaya sankhara with the fifth. Then the javana power decreases in the sixth and seventh.
• Also, kammas do not occur with one javana citta. There are millions of such citta vithi per second, and the role of each javana citta gets stronger with time. I tried to explain that in the video conference that we had a few months ago. 

Link to the forum thread: “Pure Dhamma zoom meeting!“

• Seng Kiat posted the following notes there on January 14, 2024 at 8:03 pm: Download “Dhamma discussion – 14th January Notes”:
  Link: Google Drive

The last (fifth) slide there explains that idea.

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dosakkhayo

[Lal]

I have revised the post “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation” per the above discussion.

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dosakkhayo

[dosakkhayo]

I understand now. Upon reflection, I realize that my mistake was in thinking that the diagram depicted the sequence from tanha paccaya upadana to kamacchanda as occurring within a single citta vithi. However, I have come to understand that in this context, kamacchanda is describing what arises from upadana, rather than suggesting that the mano sankhara following the 4 cittas in bahidda vinnana possesses the javana power to cause kamacchanda. Is this correct?

[Lal]

Yes. A single citta vithi is gone in a split second. The Buddha said billions of citta vithi can run within the “blink of an eye.”

• When a mind starts focusing on a sensory input (if it is interesting), attachment to it grows with each second.
• That is why one must be mindful and stop “running with it” in the early stages.

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dosakkhayo

[dosakkhayo]

Q1. What is the difference between kāmacchanda and kāmapariḷāha?

Q2. This is a minor point, but is there a connection between bahidda vinnana and bahidda samyojana (rupa raga, arupa raga, mana, uddacca, avijja)?

Q3. My last question about this topic. Can one empirically tell that one is moving from the upaya phase to the upadana phase or can one only notice it and take some actions when one is already in the upadana phase?

[Lal]

Q1: There are several aspects to consider:

1. “Javana power” in javana citta increases with each subsequent javana citta in a given citta vithi.

• Then, in the second citta vithi, the same happens. But the first javana citta in the second citta vithi is STRONGER than the first javana citta in the first citta vithi.
• That process holds for all subsequent citta vithi.
• Thus, one should see that javana power increases with each second/minute one is focused on that arammana.
• Always think using examples. Watch a person (even oneself) getting angrier by the minute. In an argument, both people will get angrier the more they stay in that argument. In another example, one sees a beautiful woman. If one keeps looking at her, lusty thoughts keep growing.

2. The suttas describe the “growth of attachment” differently. Of course, both are related.

• The sutta version is explained, for example, in the “Sanidāna Sutta (SN 14.12).“ The following is extracted from #10 of the post “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation”:

“10. The “Sanidāna Sutta (SN 14.12)“ points out the general sequence of steps involved in kamma accumulation based on any sensory input in kāma loka. We discussed that in the post “Upaya and Upādāna – Two Stages of Attachment.”

• “Kāma dhātuṁ, bhikkhave, paṭicca uppajjati kāma saññā, kāma saññaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāma saṅkappo, kāma saṅkappaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmacchando, kāmacchandaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāma pariḷāho, kāma pariḷāhaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāma pariyesanā.” OR “Attachment to kāma dhātu leads to kāma saññā, attachment to kāma saññā leads to kāma saṅkappa, attachment to kāma saṅkappa leads to kāmacchanda..and so on to kāma pariyesanā.“

Here, the time sequence is Kāma dhātu to kāma saññā (“distorted saññā”) to kāma saṅkappa (initial thoughts with a low level of kama raga ) that automatically arise due to anusaya/samyojana) to stronger kāmacchanda (getting “blinded by kama raga“) to even stronger kāma pariḷāha (“burning with kama raga” and trying to fulfill one’s desires ASAP) to kāma pariyesanā (urgently thinking about various ways to fulfill the desire.) 

• A person would engage in various verbal and bodily activities by the end. One could be tempted to engage in verbal harassment, stealing, raping, killing, etc, depending on the situation.
• See “Kāmaccandha and Icca – Being Blinded by Cravings.”

___________

Q2: What are ” bahidda samyojana”? I am not aware of such a concept.

• Rupa raga, arupa raga, mana, uddacca, avijja are the five higher samyojana (removed at the Arahant stage). There are three samyojana (sakkaya ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbata paramasa) removed at the Sotapanna stage and two (kama raga, patigha) removed at the Anagami stage.

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dosakkhayo

[dosakkhayo]

A2:36

The five higher samyojana (uddhambhagiya samyojana) is bahidda samyojana.

I thought that an Anāgāmī studies the Abhidhamma in order to resolve the problem of bahiddhā viññāṇa (sanna vipallasa).

So, I thought that is why they called bahiddhā samyojana.

___

P1

There is a contradiction about “paṭisaṃvedī.”

Pāli Dictionaries – Are They Reliable?

In 2 of #9,

“paṭisaṃvedī” or “paṭisanvedi” (“paṭi + “san” + “vedi“) means vedana due to bonds with “san” becoming apparent.

___

But Does patisamvedi happen to everyone include Arahant?

[Lal]

Thanks for the reference on AN 2.36.

• This is the first time I have encountered the terms “ajjhatta samyojana” and “bahidda samyojana.”
• I did a search and did not see any other sutta with those terms.
• Other than the usage of those “unusual terms,” the meanings are the same, i.e., “ajjhatta samyojana” = orambhagiya samyojana and “bahidda samyojana” = uddhambhagiya samyojana.
• However, I do not see a connection between those and ajjhatta vinnana and bahidda vinnana.

____

The quoted statement, “’paṭisaṃvedī’ or “paṭisanvedi” (“paṭi + “san” + “vedi“) means vedana due to bonds with “san” becoming apparent” is correct.

• The verse, “Nāhaṁ, bhikkhave, sañcetanikānaṁ kammānaṁ katānaṁ upacitānaṁ appaṭisaṁveditvā byantībhāvaṁ vadāmi,” appears in several suttas including “Paṭhamasañcetanika Sutta (AN 10.217)“ and “Karajakāya Sutta (AN 10.219).”
• The first sutta was discussed in “Paṭhamasañcetanika Sutta (AN 10.217),” and a link is provided to the previous discussion on the second sutta.

_____

Per the above, one cannot attain the Arahant stage without “patisamvedi” taking place.

• That is what is meant by “‘Sabbakāyapaṭisaṁvedī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘sabbakāyapaṭisaṁvedī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati” in the “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22).”
• Also see #7 of the post “Kāyānupassanā – The Section on Habits (Sampajanapabba)“

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dosakkhayo

[dosakkhayo]

Thank you for your helpful responses. They really helped me understand purana/nava kamma.

[dosakkhayo]

What is “Kāya” in Kāyānupassanā?

In #3,

• In the Anatta Lakkha Sutta (SN 22.59), “all rūpa” are described as 11 categories: “Tasmātiha, bhikkhave, yaṃ kiñci rūpaṃ atītā­nāgata­pac­cup­pan­naṃ ajjhattaṃ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṃ vā sukhumaṃ vā hīnaṃ vā paṇītaṃ vā yaṃ dūre santike vā, sabbaṃ rūpaṃ..“. They are past, present, future, near, far, likable, distasteful, fine (not strong), coarse (strong), internal, and external; see also “Five Aggregates – Introduction.”
• For example, feelings (vēdana) khandha can be any of the 11 categories. Here, near and far means recent or way back in the past. Internal is one’s own and external is feelings of the others; one needs to be aware of other’s feelings in the sense that “if I do this, it could cause a feeling of grief to so and so”, as an example.

Q. In the context of the five aggregates (pañcakkhandha), is the distinction between internal (ajjhatta) and external (bahidda) applied differently to each of the aggregates: rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana?

I initially believed that the distinction between external (bahidda) vinnana, which explains sensory input, and internal (ajjhatta) vinnana, which explains kamma vinnana, would be similarly applied to the other four aggregates. However, the above statement has left me somewhat confused. I would be grateful if you could clarify this.

 

[Lal]

The following that you quoted from the post is incorrect:

“For example, feelings (vēdana) khandha can be any of the 11 categories. Here, near and far means recent or way back in the past. Internal is one’s own and external is feelings of the others.” 

• I need to correct that. I will do that and post it here.

Sorry about the confusion. Even though I fixed another issue on that post recently, I probably missed this one. Thank you for pointing it out.

• This issue became clear to me only in 2023. So, there could be other (old) posts with similar errors related to ajjhatta and bahidda rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana.

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dosakkhayo

[dosakkhayo]

According to the chart of 50465, citta vithi can continuously accumulate and make the next citta vithi stronger. Then, can a sufficiently large number of citta vithi strengthened mano sankhara generate enough energy to lead to rebirth? Or, no matter how strengthened, can mano sankhara never become strong enough to lead to rebirth?

At first, I thought it would be possible. But after reading the Abhisaṅkhāra Lead to Kamma Viññāṇa post, I am a bit confused.

Mano Saṅkhāra Cannot be Abhisaṅkhāra Leading to Rebirth

7. The critical point here is that mano saṅkhāra are in vipāka viññāṇa as well as in kamma viññāṇa, i.e., in any type of viññāṇa. In fact, they are also in “pure citta” or “pabhassara citta” of an Arahant in Arahant-phala samādhi.

• Mano saṅkhāra can NEVER become abhisaṅkhāra that can lead to rebirth.
• To generate kammic power (in javana citta), we need to generate defiled thoughts CONSCIOUSLY. Those involve vaci and kāya saṅkhāra. Kamma viññāṇa (in javana citta with kammic energy) arises only in Paṭicca Samuppāda.
• It is not necessary to fully understand the above in #7. It is there for completeness.

—

I would appreciate it if you would explain.

 

[Lal]

1. Kammic energy generated via mano sankhara cannot give rise to rebirth. Such kammic energies can bring vipaka only during this life or the next. 

2. Only vaci and kaya sankhara can generate javana citta strong enough to create kammic energies that can lead to rebirth. They also can bring vipaka during life for numerous lives into the future.

_____

This was briefly described in the new post “Taṇhā – Result of Saññā Giving Rise to Mind-Made Vedanā.“

• With any arammana, a mind gets to the “purana kamma” stage and generates only mano sankhara within that stage.
• It is only when a mind attaches to an arammana and gets to the “nava kamma” stage (starting at the “tanha paccaya upadana” step) that the mind starts generating “strong kamma” consciously. In other words, one must think (with vaci sankhara) about how to “get more of it” and act (with kaya sankhara) on those thoughts. 
• Both the “purana kamma” and “nava kamma” stages have several steps, as explained in the post “Taṇhā – Result of Saññā Giving Rise to Mind-Made Vedanā” starting at #7. As stated in #10 there: “As shown in the chart, kamma accumulation accelerates with kāmacchanda, kāma pariḷāha, etc., ending with dasa akusala done with kāya, vaci, and mano kamma.”
• I will explain these steps in an upcoming post. But the point is that strong kamma generation takes place after going through kāmacchanda, kāma pariḷāha, etc. (as also indicated in the second figure.)

________

#1 and #2 above are also explained in Abhidhamma from a different angle.

• When a mind attaches to an arammana, numerous citta vithi run at a high-speed rate. Each citta vithi has seven javana citta.
• As we have discussed, javana cittas start weak, get stronger until #5, and then gradually decrease in #6 and #7. We compared that to a fast runner starting slowly, accelerating, and then slowing down at the end of the run. 
• The first two javana cittas (#1, #2) have only mano sankhara. Only in #3 and #4 vaci sankhara arise, and even stronger kaya sankhara arise in the 5th.  The last two are weaker mano sankhara.
• All javana cittas become stronger in the subsequent citta vithi. Yet, mano sankharas never get strong enough to bring rebirth.
• I am too busy today to look for the posts that discussed the above points in Abhidhamma. One relevant post is “Āsēvana and Aññamañña Paccayā.”

• This reply was modified 1 week ago by Lal.
• This reply was modified 1 week ago by Lal.

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dosakkhayo

[dosakkhayo]

Thank you for your response. If it’s not too much trouble, could you address this question in an upcoming post?

Q. The everyday activities that proceed with sankhara would not be nava kamma. Because nava kamma only deals with abhisankhara. There can only be mano sankhara in purana kamma, so it would not be purana kamma either. Then, where do they belong? Is there perhaps a third category? Or is it something that cannot be explained by purana kamma and nava kamma?

[Lal]

“Q. The everyday activities that proceed with sankhara would not be nava kamma. Because nava kamma only deals with abhisankhara. ..”

You asked this question some time back, too. Why do we have to consider “everyday activities” in Buddha Dhamma? 

• Do “everyday activities” (like walking to the kitchen to get a glass of water to quench the thirst, driving to the supermarket to buy groceries, etc.) involve abhisankhara that we must consciously avoid?
• We study Buddha Dhamma to stop future suffering. Do such “everyday activities” lead to “kamma” or, more specifically, “generation of kammic energies that can bring adverse effects (kamma vipaka) in the future?

P.S. Some very subtle mano sankhara arise at the “purana kamma” stage. This was discussed in #10 of “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.“ It was mentioned also starting at #6 in “Taṇhā – Result of Saññā Giving Rise to Mind-Made Vedanā.”

• Such subtle “kamma” in the “purana kamma” stage can happen automatically with any arammana, as stated by “Kāma dhātuṁ, bhikkhave, paṭicca uppajjati kāma saññā, kāma saññaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāma saṅkappo.” See #10 of “Taṇhā – Result of Saññā Giving Rise to Mind-Made Vedanā.”
• But the mind of an Arahant will not even go through any stage past the “kāma dhātu” stage. 

• This reply was modified 1 week ago by Lal.

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dosakkhayo

[dosakkhayo]

My impression of Abhidhamma is entirely based on posts from Pure Dhamma. I still haven’t grasped the overall structure of Abhidhamma. Since I thought it would be meaningless to read other works if I couldn’t judge right from wrong by myself, I haven’t read Bhikkhu Bodhi’s works. Anyway, I tried to understand Abhidhamma using only the posts from Pure Dhamma.

For various reasons, my understanding has many gaps.
1. The Abhidhamma section does not have many posts to help understand its vast content.
2. I may not have fully understood the posts that have already been published.
3. I don’t have enough knowledge to distinguish between meaningful and meaningless questions regarding Abhidhamma.
These three issues seem to be interrelated, causing me to make continuous missteps.

I tried to fill in the gaps as best as I could, which seems to have led to somewhat meaningless questions. It seems I have come back to the same question in a roundabout way. But I had no intention of annoying you by repeating the same question. I was deeply focused and overlooked considering how my questions might impact you. I apologize for that oversight.

What I didn’t understand is that kiriya citta can only occur in arahants. If so, I don’t know what to call a citta of puthujjana without sancetana. I thought it would be meaningful to get an answer on this topic because it would be an example of how Abhidhamma can provide answers to ‘anything.’

The point is, I would like to know how to classify the citta of a puthujjana without sancetana.

[Lal]

“The point is, I would like to know how to classify the citta of a puthujjana without sancetana.”

• The point is such discussions are not relevant to Buddha Dhamma.
• We focus only on thoughts with sancetana. The goal is to stop such sancetana from arising. That is the way to “end of suffering.”

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dosakkhayo

[dosakkhayo]

I see my question missed the mark. Even this helps me. At least this question clarified what purana/nava kamma covers. Also, knowing how far I can go with my questions will allow me to ask better ones in the future. Thank you for your response.

with metta

[SengKiat]

dosakkhayo wrote:

What I didn’t understand is that kiriya citta can only occur in arahants. If so, I don’t know what to call a citta of puthujjana without sancetana. I thought it would be meaningful to get an answer on this topic because it would be an example of how Abhidhamma can provide answers to ‘anything.’

In Buddha Dhamma, there is one term “avyākata” or “abyākata” means “indeterminate or neutral” which you may have not understood.

You may want to check out the book “Guide Through the Abhidhamma Piṭaka by Ñāṇatiloka Mahathera” by searching the word “avyākata” and see the concern text related to “avyākata” within the seven books of Abhidhamma.

Hope this helps your undertanding on “neutral” action.

With mettā, Seng Kiat

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dosakkhayo

[dosakkhayo]

Thank you, Seng Kiat! Although I couldn’t understand everything, it helped me get a rough idea of the issue.

Here is what I understand.

• Only an Arahant can act with kiriya.
• Puthujjana and Sekha create defiled kamma to varying degrees and in different ways.
• We need to focus on kamma related to rebirth because that is the crux of the issue.

[Lal]

1. All thoughts of a puthujjana are defiled, at least with very subtle “mano sankhara” soon after receiving an arammana.

• It happens automatically at the “purana kamma” stage, triggered by the “distorted sanna.”
• A puthujjana‘s mind examines EVERY sensory input (arammana) with “sanjanati” (“distorted sanna“) and vijanati (making decisions based on it).” See “Cognition Modes – Sañjānāti, Vijānāti, Pajānāti, Abhijānāti.”
• This happens at the “avyākata” or “abyākata” stage of an Idappacayata Paticca Samuppada process.
• If the mind attaches further to that arammana with kama guna, etc., then the “nava kamma” stage starts at the “tanha paccaya upadana” stage. This is where javana citta with vaci and kaya sankhara arise, i.e., “strong kamma” that can even bring rebirths are accumulated. 

2. “Kiriya citta” (cittas without a trace of defilements) arise at ANY TIME only in Arahants. This is where a sensory input can be experienced without even a trace of defilements arising in the mind.

3. Therefore, “kiriya citta” are DIFFERENT from cittas that arise in the “avyākata” or “abyākata” stage of an Idappacayata Paticca Samuppada process. P.S. At the “avyākata” stage of an Idappacayata Paticca Samuppada process (i.e., in the “purana kamma” stage), subtle sancetana with mano sankhara arise automatically based on one’s anusaya/samyojana; but they are not strong enough to bring rebirths.

4. Not all arammana lead to the “nava kamma” stage. Most Idappacayata Paticca Samuppada processes do not get to the “nava kamma” stage because the mind may not be firmly attached. (An example I gave was walking to the kitchen to get a glass of water. That does not happen with “kiriya cittas” but no “nava kamma” accumulated.)

• Only at the “nava kamma” stage does one accumulate kamma consciously (with vaci and kaya sankhara with sancetana). That is where “strong kamma” that could bring rebirths can accumulate.) The goal is to stop such sancetana from arising. That is the way to “end of suffering.”
• In contrast, all actions by an Arahant happen with “kiriya cittas” devoid of even a trace of defilements.

5. Therefore, there is no need to focus on actions that do not lead to the “nava kamma” stage. It would be a waste of time! That is what I tried to explain. 

• P.S. However, it is essential to understand the steps in the “purana kamma” stage. That will help critically to understand how a mind initially attaches AUTOMATICALLY to an arammana based on the types of anusaya/samyojana. Since an Arahant does not have any anusaya/samyojana left, Paticca Samuppada process of any kind will not even get started for an Arahant.
• Also, it is essential to point out #3 above.

6. Even though “Avyakata Paticca Samuppada” is sometimes treated separately, it is part of the Idappacayata Paticca Samuppada process; it is the beginning part of the Idappacayata Paticca Samuppada process.

_____

The following information could be helpful to those who understand the citta vithi analysis.

7. In the citta vithi analysis, “Avyakata Paticca Samuppada” (same as the “purana kamma” stage) describes what happens up to the votthapana citta. If the mind attaches strongly at the votthapana citta moment, then the “nava kamma” stage starts with javana citta.

8. These are subtle issues that will become clear as one starts putting many concepts together. 

• This reply was modified 1 week ago by Lal.
• This reply was modified 1 week ago by Lal.
• This reply was modified 1 week ago by Lal.

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dosakkhayo

[dosakkhayo]

Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! This is a great help to me! Thank you.

[dosakkhayo]

Upaya and Upādāna – Two Stages of Attachment

#9

Based on ANY sensory input and the uppatti bhavaṅga, a mind will start at a particular DEFILED STATE (pancupadanakkhandha) unless one is an Arahant. Even if an average human may not strongly attach to a sense input, “distorted saññā” is automatically generated; the reason is not realizing the anicca nature, but we will discuss that later.

Wouldn’t ‘defiled sanna’ be more appropriate in this context? Even if the anicca nature is realized, distorted sanna will still occur.

[Lal]

I slightly revised it as follows:

9. Based on ANY sensory input and the uppatti bhavaṅga, a mind will start at a particular DEFILED STATE (with mano saṅkhāra) unless one is an Arahant. Even if an average human may not strongly attach to a sense input, “distorted saññā” is automatically generated; the reason is not realizing the anicca nature, but we will discuss that later.

The point is the following. Following is #1 in that post.

1. The Buddha described this difference in the “Sanidāna Sutta (SN 14.12)“: “Kāmadhātuṁ, bhikkhave, paṭicca uppajjati kāmasaññā, kāmasaññaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmasaṅkappo, kāmasaṅkappaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmacchando, kāmacchandaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmapariḷāho, kāmapariḷāhaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmapariyesanā.” OR “Attachment to kāma dhātu leads to kāma saññā, attachment to kāma saññā leads to kāma saṅkappa, attachment to kāma saṅkappa leads to kāmacchanda..and so on to kāma pariyesanā.“

• The first step, “Kāmadhātuṁ, bhikkhave, paṭicca uppajjati kāmasaññā” happens to all, including Arahants.
• The second step, “kāmasaññaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmasaṅkappo,” DOES NOT happen to an Arahant or Anagami (who have eliminated kama raga).
• The subsequent step, ” kāmasaṅkappaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmacchando” happens ONLY IF one gets strongly attached to the arammana. That leads to “tanha paccaya upadana” step in PS. That is when the “pancupadanakkhandha” starts. Thus, not all arammana lead to pancupadanakkhandha even for a puthujjana.

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dosakkhayo

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