[Christian]

There is no such thing as “Varjayana buddhism” neither is fast track to enlightenment. It’s scam like MLM type stuff of marketing or “get rich quick scams”. Vajrayana is just hinduism under “buddhist label”. I’m long time Varjayana practitioner (Dzogchen/Nyingma/Bon) and there are practices that have supernatural outcome, can lead to some states or samadhis and create certain experiences but those are all anariya experiences that does not lead to Nibbana. Those people do not understand what Nibbana or enlightenment is, it’s just playground for people who refused to grow up.

[Christian]

I do not agree on Vilas, we had chat in our discourse here my answers for other people about it:

Christian Today at 4:25 AM
@anagārikā vilas What do you mean by “Nama-rupa link is broken”, how it is broken?

anagārikā vilas Today at 5:03 AM
nama-rupa link is to understand about nama kaya and rupa kaya along with adhivachana samphassa and pathigha samphassa through which vedana arises and then moves into the PS cycle.

One can cut that link and is called as nama-rupa pariccheda naana and is said in Mahanidana sutta

@Christian an example in this regard would make sense:

Let us say there is a coffee – this is nama or name. To this one can create a rupa kaya or form as under:

1. Black coffee
2. Coffee with milk
3. Coffee with milk and sugar
4. Coffee with only sugar
5. Filter coffee
6. Capuccino etc.,

One name has multiple forms and then gives rise to each individual unit. This is called as “adhivachana samphassa” or proliferation of objects using language, concept and connotation and the name side which is called now becomes patigha samphassa which means giving a formal name as soon as the rupa strikes.

Which means, if one were to say black coffee (name) immediately one will imagine the form of black coffee knowing that there is neither milk in that or sugar
in reality, this is just a connotation and concept and just empty at core. One has been named to be so.

If we were to put to a person, the same rule can be made:

Satta – Person consisting of:

1. Pathavi dhatu – earth element as in various solid body parts
2. Apo dhatu – water element as in various liquid body parts
3. Tejo dhatu – heat / cold of the body
4. Vayo dhatu – movement

Then this gets further named as “a formal name” and “title”
Once this gets formed, becomes as under:

1. This person is so and so son or daughter
2. This person is from so and so place
3. This person is from so and so country
4. This person is from so and so belief systems
5. This person is a veg or non veg
6. This person is working in so and so stream
7. This person has so and so designation, title, roles and responsibilities
8. This person is married or unmarried
9. This person’s parents are still together or not together or dead
10. This person has children or not

and we can keep on listing endlessly and this is what we are doing as nama-rupa to keep on categorising in order to have a symbol, shape and structure, gender (male, female, neutral) and purpose of what is being done
this again can be verified in Mahanidana Sutta too
once you see these links here which creates back to PS cycle, then one gets to break the link
Nama rupa paccaya vinnana
vinnana paccaya nama rupa

and also nama paccaya rupa and rupa paccaya nama

This is the vortex which is what causes the next step of sense doors etc.,
once a person sees this vortex, he will not desire it nor fear it nor reject it…with that, the nama-rupa to vinnana link is broken

Christian Today at 6:57 AM
I’m not sure if it would lead to Anagamihood to be honest because I see the same mistake here that focusing on the object. I pointed this before too, it’s not the object but wrong views and perception about the object. The sanna that breaks and leads one into Anagamihood is not about the things you explained but the idea of having a “child” or “coffee” whatever will lead to fulfillment of the senses. It’s not concept itself that are problem
I spoke with @Archemis on this. It’s seems you mixing Dhamma with some quasi-advaita or hindu stuff which I do not think is right thing to do as it will inevitably block way to even Sotapanna

anagārikā vilas Today at 7:11 AM

@Christian – To be honest, there is nothing to add there since all that what is in the sutta…but then if you have this view, do not want to argue this way or that way because it does not make sense. One needs to understand and experience Dhamma by himself/herself by referring to various sutta’s and each one can experience to it for sure
and that’s the reason, I did not commit or write the steps since people can take in some views and that is the sammaditti sutta is all about. Many times, we see either there is self or no self, but what arises and passes away is just the dhamma and once one sees it, there is nothing to latch on to in terms of views and that is the feeling right now from what you have said about discussion with @Archemis

Christian Today at 2:42 PM
I think overfocus on “I” etc. is not proper as it does not lead to Nibbana but fake cut off of certain mind factors which does not cease suffering or anything, it may trigger some experiences that why is dangerous to follow it in the sense that one can think he attained Nibbana while in just different state because of that contemplation. I would say @anagārikā vilas would be right when he would explain “Pathavi dhatu – earth element as in various solid body parts which does not lead to happiness” “Apo dhatu – water element as in various liquid body parts which does not lead to fulfillment”
If you just explaining the nature of object it would mean that the biologist or surgeon would attain Nibbana
What is important here is TRUE nature of this world which was hidden before Buddha coming, just nature or explaining nature of the object will not do anything, especially focusing on “I” which they do in advaita
I can see thru it simple because I have experience in those “spiritual” traditions

anagārikā vilas Today at 3:54 PM

@Christian – I did not mean the “I” as in any tradition, but one needs to get out this “I” and all that we say “I” is just 5 aggregates. Thus I’m not adding anything from any traditions be it Advaita or anything else
I’m aware of how Buddha dhamma works and hence do not require to take shelter in any other Dhamma however it might be presented

Christian Today at 3:55 PM
one needs to get out this “I” and all that we say “I” is just 5 aggregates

How it would lead to getting out of “I” by focusing on the “I” as you explained?

anagārikā vilas Today at 3:56 PM
Wanted to explain on how one name creates various forms as in Nama kaya and rupa kaya. It would be interesting to see what Mahanidana Sutta says with relation to Nama Kaya and Rupa Kaya along with Adhivachana Samphassa and Patigha Samphassa
one needs to get out this “I” and all that we say “I” is just 5 aggregates – this is what precisely what nama-rupa in combination all about when the arising of 5 aggregates and passing away of 5 aggregates gives a feeling of “I’m” doing this or that. One picks up 3 kinds of views when comes to “I” – eso mama, eso aham asmi and eso me atta.

Translation: This is mine, This I’ve become and This is myself which can be said to be craving, conceit and views.
If one cannot contemplate on “Udaya Vyaya Naana” which means “Arising and Passing Away” then the person always keeps the opinion as “I” forever
once he does that, he will get rid of this view since he sees that all that is arising is dukkha and all that is passing is dukkha since there is anicca nature in it. What is this anicca nature? – Uppada vayatena anicca – which means, whatever arises will cease to exist

Christian Today at 4:01 PM
Sorry, it’s not clear enough, there is no shortcut to this Path. 4 Noble truth, Three marks and 8 fold path that leads to Nibbana does not speak about it. Still there is lacking “Nibbana factor” in what you say

anagārikā vilas Today at 4:03 PM
well, that is the pre-requisite Christian…without proper understanding of Samma Dhitti (please refer to Samma Dhitti Sutta) and 4 Noble truths, will be difficult..not sure how to explain back to you

Christian Today at 4:04 PM
You are explaining things without meat on the bone so to speak, “dry water” so to speak. I think this is your interpretation of Dhamma not the way Buddha explained as it’s missing a lot of points that should be there to trigger insight in other person.
Any explanation of Dhamma need to have “whole package” and point out to the doors so that person can attain Nibbana – that the work of Ariyas who wants to share Dhamma (but they do not need to do it)

anagārikā vilas Today at 4:05 PM
well, nothing that I can do @Christian. I cannot explain the way you expect me to explain and thus no good for me to argue on anything…I normally don’t argue with anyone since the basic is “anicca” nature and if that itself causes complication, then no point..the way you are asking is to make me confirm something to your liking and that is not possible

Christian Today at 4:10 PM
We do not argue, this is very important to talk about because maybe other people could see that there is lack of “Nibbana factor” in those explanations that why I mentioned to look between words. It’s not to be to my liking but to the way Dhamma is and should be explained. One will not attain Anagami and not even Sotapanna with that understanding because it does not have “substance” to trigger insight like bamboo stick, empty inside. That is why we have #buddhist-talks to purify understanding of Dhamma and those who have achieve something get deeper and keep Dhamma the way it should be so at this moment the way you explaining it is some different dry interpretation of Dhamma, more like school teacher who can not enjoy his own understanding of math even if he can count to ten and explain how to subtract things inside it’s kind of burden that he keeps in mind. I’m saying this so you can do better and rethink/re contemplate approach to Dhamma because I think it’s blind spot

For example if one wants coffee and one gets cappuccino but he wanted americano – what is factor of suffering here, nama rupa or ignorance about it?

Mental fabrication does not lie in the object or nama rupa but in the mind of the person who sees thru his ignorance at that moment and time. Advaita focus on the mental fabrication of the object itself that why I’m saying you got it wrong

Sticking to the basics and following them with patience will bring much more results then getting into advance Dhamma with wrong ideas

So if one get your understanding he would be like math teacher who is still unhappy and suffering even with understanding of math as he would not be able to make use of it to attain happiness thru that understanding. There were plenty of people like that in the suttas

When people studied suttas and everything but they do had been even on Sotapanna stage
Plus most people have hard time to understanding the basics with clarity, Dhamma and people are still are on “baby” stage when one grows, one grows naturally into those advanced concepts properly not pre-maturely

[Christian]

I think ‘there is control’ is an extreme view and ‘there is no control at all’ also is an extreme view.

Just because you can wash you teeth or workout it does not matter you have control over the body. You wash your teeth you can choke to death by doing that, what kind of control is that? Why people take steroids when working out? Because they do not have control over their body and “try” to fulfill “anatta” (and anicca which leads to dukkha). Just because you can act like it’s superpower. There is no control at all in terms of anatta. The only Atta is Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha which culminates into Nibbana.

The subtle aspect “anatta” here is lack control in “controlling” the body or mind. Anicca is trying to control in that context to get fulfillment but if you follow Four Noble Truths obviously those things make no sense (you mentioned)

[Christian]

Anapana is also listening to the discourses, reading proper Dhamma that leads to Nibbana, choosing to being in Sangha rather in or with ignorant people/places. You wont be able keeping mind pure without it unless you are extremely talented or have enough paramits.

You get into Dhamma with intention of finishing this birth, suffering and future one too realizing the dangers of it, once you go into Dhamma-Sangha-Buddha way you will be pulled off many times and this is when Ariya Anapana gets into practice to stay on the Path, mundane anapana is just being good person which is obviously not enough to attain Nibbana and may be not enough to get into Tihetuka birth.

[Christian]

You may not be aware of names or how to explain it with technical terms but you should know and see by your experience even if you are not able to understand that you are really seeing PS cycle happening and that it’s actually now broken with permanent switch of wisdom. You may be thinking “after Sotapanna should I know automatically what is on this site about PS cycle?” – No, you will know PS cycle but not as that if you do not educate yourself in that and you may see it even better which may leads to deeper insight and Sakadagami or Anagami etc.

[Christian]

I can agree but I can not find any explanation for it, even I lost any craving for jhana when doing my formal meditation with chants as I found that there is something else going on that helps me to attain and uproot tanha. I do not know how it is possible but I have not jhana factors yet they are factors that help me progress on the Path like samadhi, upekkha and clarity of mind. I even have lights before eyes that people have in 4th jhana but I can not tell if I’m in 4th jhana, it’s seems I have 4th jhana factors (or something similar to magga phala) without any jhana. I still didn’t find any satisfying explanation on what really going on BUT as long as I can see tanha disappearing I’m all fine with whatever happens as progress is ongoing. As Lal said one should not be discouraged because lack of jhana as one can make progress without it as long as one can get into “pure mind” to see things as they are (Anicca, Dukkhha, Anatta) and the fetters will fall off like crumbled glue off the mind.

[Christian]

Yes, thank you. I had the wrong idea about permanency in terms of jhana. :)

[Christian]

“Ariya jhanas are permanent in nature compared to Anariya jhanas” – from post Ariya jhanas – power of human mind.

Now I started to doubting it. In the suttas even Buddha (before dying) goes into jhanas so if for Buddha does are not permanent so how it can be for Anagami and Arahant?

I think there need to be another or different route. Even myself I can recognize that when I do Ariya meditation I have results of getting better insight without jhana but have factors that are related to Nibbana which are different then jhana path (or regular meditation). There is something in it that does not feel right in the sense my experience showing that there is different route and Ariya factors that one experience permanently are not really related to jhana.

Any thoughts?

[Christian]

I agree, most of my progress related to Nibbana is without jhana to be honest. I realized when mind becomes pure but does not have jhana factors it makes “leap” into deeper state of Nibbana, understanding, not generating any tanha, attachment, better understanding. I realized that I need to have just mind pure enough to get it deeper but this seems like a different “Pathway”. Can you shed light about it? I’m not sure if it’s okay to keep going in this thread if we think we should create new please tell me. What I realized the most (and that let me go of jhanas really) that progress is made in different state of mind which is not jhana but it’s pure also and that purity or light joins with proper understanding and wisdom (panna) about true nature then I feel magga phala happens and deeper understanding, way and I can see how my mind works different on the same way he used to work. For example when I would lost something or something precious to me (before) I would have certain heat, emotions, thoughts coming up but now it not even happening like it would never happen, nothing comes up after those experiences I related with “clear light” or “clear mind” + deeper understanding of Anicca Sanna etc. after that I realized I do not need anything else, not even jhana to realize full Nibbana in the future, just repeat this pattern of getting mind pure and when purity is ready to mix this pure mind with wisdom but it’s really yoked, wisdom works on pure mind, pure mind works on wisdom at the same time or in cycles so to speak.

[Christian]

I agree how to get Nibbana is more important then explaining this thing about Nibbana which is self explanatory and kind of “organic” when one gets into those stages. I can not claim nirodha samapatti but I’m sure I been very close to it which was very similar to the lady in terms of experience I posted in “very advanced testimonial” :) but it may be just last arupa jhana, we would need to ask Buddha to explain it or verify it but we can not do that now so that’s all I can say about Nibbana that there is Nibbana without any residue but most people without any deeper meditative experience will still look into “me” and Nibbana, not just Nibbana, for me it’s too mystery how Nibbana can function itself and in relation to itself.

[Christian]

For me it’s also interesting and I can not explain the way I would like it, probably Abhidhamma explains it but in Nibbana there is only Nibbana and experience of it itself. I do not want to add much more to it because people start to think in the limited views and ideas that may be actually opposite to what really happen. I can not explain how Nibbana can be just Nibbana without consciousness etc. but this is how it is.

[Christian]

Remember to CC subtitles ON for english

[Christian]

@y not

For me it’s easier to see what is in Nibbana because I have a lot of meditative experience especially higher arupa jhanas so what not make sense for regular person if you go beyond this realm it will start to make sense as you been and seen how things are up there. In Nibbana there is only Nibbana, nothing else. If you practice it will make sense to you too. :)

[Christian]

f you ask me, this forum topic has come to appear more like a Mahāyāna inquiry into emptiness, nothingness, sunnyata: no experiencer? The same old questions about Nibbana come up. Who is it, apart from the pancakkhandhas, that experiences? The manomayakaya shorn of all that is positive and negative, with only what is neutral remaining

When reading it and your question I realized that after Nibbana is only Nibbana and this is how it is. One may not grasp it or make sense of it but after Nibbana there is only Nibbana. If you inquiry on it – it make really clear sense. In Nibbana there is only Nibbana

[Christian]

I have no idea what kind of “noting” Adam is speaking of. I think we are on different page and judging by your own ideas rather then understanding what I said will not bring any benefit to be honest. The wrong notion of “remaining” suggest anariya practices (probably sayadaw?). What I speak here is permanent and does not need any further practice once reached one does not start PS cycles once fetters are broken forever to that extent of those fetters being broken.

[Author]

Posts