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“Ariya jhanas are permanent in nature compared to Anariya jhanas” – from post Ariya jhanas – power of human mind.
Now I started to doubting it. In the suttas even Buddha (before dying) goes into jhanas so if for Buddha does are not permanent so how it can be for Anagami and Arahant?
I think there need to be another or different route. Even myself I can recognize that when I do Ariya meditation I have results of getting better insight without jhana but have factors that are related to Nibbana which are different then jhana path (or regular meditation). There is something in it that does not feel right in the sense my experience showing that there is different route and Ariya factors that one experience permanently are not really related to jhana.
Any thoughts?
I agree, most of my progress related to Nibbana is without jhana to be honest. I realized when mind becomes pure but does not have jhana factors it makes “leap” into deeper state of Nibbana, understanding, not generating any tanha, attachment, better understanding. I realized that I need to have just mind pure enough to get it deeper but this seems like a different “Pathway”. Can you shed light about it? I’m not sure if it’s okay to keep going in this thread if we think we should create new please tell me. What I realized the most (and that let me go of jhanas really) that progress is made in different state of mind which is not jhana but it’s pure also and that purity or light joins with proper understanding and wisdom (panna) about true nature then I feel magga phala happens and deeper understanding, way and I can see how my mind works different on the same way he used to work. For example when I would lost something or something precious to me (before) I would have certain heat, emotions, thoughts coming up but now it not even happening like it would never happen, nothing comes up after those experiences I related with “clear light” or “clear mind” + deeper understanding of Anicca Sanna etc. after that I realized I do not need anything else, not even jhana to realize full Nibbana in the future, just repeat this pattern of getting mind pure and when purity is ready to mix this pure mind with wisdom but it’s really yoked, wisdom works on pure mind, pure mind works on wisdom at the same time or in cycles so to speak.
I agree how to get Nibbana is more important then explaining this thing about Nibbana which is self explanatory and kind of “organic” when one gets into those stages. I can not claim nirodha samapatti but I’m sure I been very close to it which was very similar to the lady in terms of experience I posted in “very advanced testimonial” :) but it may be just last arupa jhana, we would need to ask Buddha to explain it or verify it but we can not do that now so that’s all I can say about Nibbana that there is Nibbana without any residue but most people without any deeper meditative experience will still look into “me” and Nibbana, not just Nibbana, for me it’s too mystery how Nibbana can function itself and in relation to itself.
For me it’s also interesting and I can not explain the way I would like it, probably Abhidhamma explains it but in Nibbana there is only Nibbana and experience of it itself. I do not want to add much more to it because people start to think in the limited views and ideas that may be actually opposite to what really happen. I can not explain how Nibbana can be just Nibbana without consciousness etc. but this is how it is.
@y not
For me it’s easier to see what is in Nibbana because I have a lot of meditative experience especially higher arupa jhanas so what not make sense for regular person if you go beyond this realm it will start to make sense as you been and seen how things are up there. In Nibbana there is only Nibbana, nothing else. If you practice it will make sense to you too. :)
f you ask me, this forum topic has come to appear more like a Mahāyāna inquiry into emptiness, nothingness, sunnyata: no experiencer? The same old questions about Nibbana come up. Who is it, apart from the pancakkhandhas, that experiences? The manomayakaya shorn of all that is positive and negative, with only what is neutral remaining
When reading it and your question I realized that after Nibbana is only Nibbana and this is how it is. One may not grasp it or make sense of it but after Nibbana there is only Nibbana. If you inquiry on it – it make really clear sense. In Nibbana there is only Nibbana
I have no idea what kind of “noting” Adam is speaking of. I think we are on different page and judging by your own ideas rather then understanding what I said will not bring any benefit to be honest. The wrong notion of “remaining” suggest anariya practices (probably sayadaw?). What I speak here is permanent and does not need any further practice once reached one does not start PS cycles once fetters are broken forever to that extent of those fetters being broken.
Even if we base this question on the base of simple logic – to learn count to ten or to learn to speak properly, write or even have basic societal understanding and orientation you go to school and learn. Logical things are not necessary to be proven thru suttas as they are obvious. So as we can see to learn how to count to 10 you need to highly qualified person to do so, so person who will teach Dhamma obviously need to be at least Sotapanna to see things as they are so he/she can explain it.
It will not work that way because people are okay with it knowing that the way you explained.
Without meaning and something to trigger switch it will be just accepted as set of believes. To get rid of lust one need to have meaning to what is said or explained – the way you explained is without meaning, if you will add Dukkha Sanna to it in between lines to make a contrast or anything to gave it meaning it would be better. Just saying sky is blue and grass is green have no much value without proper wisdom or meaning that can bring insight.
It’s like this, when you are a pig you are attracted and enjoy being in mud and acting like pig in mud and dirt, for human is repulsive but for person who understand Dhamma human nature is no different than of this pig but person can not realize it as the pig unless one gets to understand real Dhamma, pig of course will never understand it even if human would explain it to pig – those pigs are the same as people who are ahetukas and dvihetukas who are not able to understand Dhamma as pig who are unable to understand ignorance of dwelling in mud and dirt and eating rotten food.
While for human the pig is his own mind, ignorance and dirt and mud thoughts based on that ignorance
Loneliness is mental fabrication. Buddha praised recluse. Imagine situation that somebody is in your position but it’s happy in your place, what does it mean? You suffering is because you trying to keep things to your own satisfaction but world is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta.
All those practices are bunch of misunderstanding about this life and spirituality. Focus on Dhamma – one can not mix those with Dhamma as they inventively will lead to wrong views so the rebirth in apayas no matter what kind of “presence” you will be staying – the next moment you will wake up will be in lower realms.
I don’t see a single prison that’s as brutal, as vicious, and such an obstacle to reaching the supreme sanctuary as the prison of hell or the animal realm.AN 6.45I explained on my group how to gradually attain Anagami stage based on Silavant Sutta, maybe someone find it useful. It’s not hard but it takes patience and the practice goes deeper with time
How Ariyas should train after attaining Sotapanna: First we need that hate, greed and lust that arise in Ariya after Nibbana due ignorance is little different then in regular person. It's like heat of the fire, it arises and one feel the heat but because ignorance is dropped at the stage of Sotapanna (to some extent) one just feel this heat but not being burned by it as regular people is. Ariya person acknowledge this heat but this heat this not mean instantly that you should beat yourself up or anything like that. Many Ariyas here overreact here because that arises, what Ariya need to do is acknowledge this hate, greed and lust arises as he would acknowledge going on sunbath or walking into near fire. Once tanha is acknowledged one realize the danger of this heat, one see it as incoming arrow, poison, not worth, unfruitful in nature, source of suffering, source of death, anatta nature, hopeless of following or going into this fire into those states, this is like tortures come to you asking "come with us", hell wardens, this fire is the fire of lower realms that hell wardens induces after death of regular people. After realizing nature of this heat (hate, greed and lust) one does not act on that and upon that after that one uproots and cuts off PS cycles.Generally this 3-step method of cutting PS cycle which is 1) Acknowledge 2) Understand 3) Don't act upon it is the quickest and the direct way to uproot everything but there are couple factors to make it work the way Sariputta explains: 1) One need already saw Anicca /Dukkha/Anatta to practice it in the right way (especially point 2) which means is for Sotapannas and above 2) One need to understand Paticca Samupadda cycles 3) One need to understand five aggregates1) Acknowledge is related to releasing unwholesome state of mind, as one would acknowledge heat of the fire, there is no need to panic or overreact when one feels the heat of tanha – it’s just started, acknowledging it helps it not develop it further ie. releasing. 2) Understanding here means contemplating Anicca Sanna, drawbacks of tanha and anything related to Ariya practices. 3) Do not acting upon it which means abandoning the unwholesome state of mind, do not following it anymore with any of section mind, speech, body etc. You can do it without any force or anything if you properly did the first step one and two.
I’m pretty sure this can lead to Arahanthood relatively quickly if one just keep this up. This is the quickest and easiest approach but all it takes is patience. The hardest way is to build up enough wisdom (panna) to get it rolling properly but once you are there is like you have fresh driver license, you will get better with time.
