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Jorg please contact me on email via [email protected] and I can see what I can do, always glad to contribute Jethavanarama Buddhist monastery
(I will answer you in around 10-12 days, but just send me mail so we can stay in touch)
I can not edit the above post
While I agree that truth is never equal to untruth (truth here is the ultimate factor), as you said, unreality is a different concept. For example, I agree we do not see things as they are in terms of Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta, but this is not about objects themselves; we can see and understand false perception of the object or the “unreal” way we see things, but the nature of the object itself (real or not) is irrelevant. For example, in Satipatthana Bhumi, your mind is pristine, and the false perception of objects disappears, so for them to be real or not (as they stopped being attractive) is not something of importance for the mind itself. Maybe if someone could truly see that objects are “unreal,” the way you explain it will go backwards, and a person would lose attraction towards those things, realizing Nibbana – but in my case that wasn’t really true (simply because jhana was more attractive, or the object of attractiveness shifted towards jhana). Let’s assume understanding that “things are not real” grants entry to Nibbana, but for most people it would be a much “harder” entry point to understand, as they have nothing to relate to in the process; they are missing steps of realization, and they just “assume things” based on their personal bias-authority. (ie. I respect Dhamma, so I just think what they’re thinking) which, in the end, turns out to be “Things are real = things are not real”. On top of that, other “philosophies” speak about the illusion of this world (ie. maya), which can be easily confused, but Buddha Dhamma is unique logic and arguments that “hit the right spot” towards realization.
I would not put the explanations about rupa not being real (even if that’s true) above what someone could relate to; if they can have a lower-level entry, the higher ones become irrelevant, as a person seems to know the truth of this world anyway, unless in specific gathi – person needs to have this high-end argument to understand Dhamma, then maybe.
I don’t think “belief” is the right word in the sense of Buddha’s teaching MN 95 distinguishes “preserving truth” (saying “this is my belief” without asserting that everything else is false) from “discovering truth.”
What I experienced through my spiritual journey is what Buddha taught is true (without any belief)
2. Christian wrote: “My point is that thinking that something is real = thinking that something is unreal;”
- That is the strangest statement I ever heard.
I will explain a bit more here; what I mean here is that something being unreal is not ultimate reality/argument in the context of Sansara because things unreal can still be enjoyed, while the world not being able to fulfill a person’s desires (you can add because of the unreal nature of the world) takes precedence over the unreality that why I put “thinking something is real = thinking something is unreal” because it does not take one into seeing ultimate reality/truth about the world. You can not skip over “fulfillment”; you can skip over “unreality” (as explained above) – that’s why I see those things as the same, as they are in the same “bucket,” while ultimate truths (ie. Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta) are something that you can not really “counter” with anything.
“I gather that you’re saying: it’s not possible to penetrate through the unreality of the world while being in that world. But if that world is transcended, then one sees the unreality of it.” – yes
“It is like “waking up” from the kama loka and realizing that it was like a “dream”, and this is where I see a connection to your dream analogy. In a dream, even a lucid dream, as you pointed out, one perceives it as real and cannot penetrate the unreality of it while in the dream. Once one wakes up, then he knows it was a dream and unreal.” – yes
My point is that thinking that something is real = thinking that something is unreal; while, with factors to attain Nibbana, you can see those things in the objects, you can not really see the unreality of it. Even if you somehow can “see unreality,” you still need to fulfill the factors first; otherwise, you will end up like advaita crazies (ie. nothing is real, so I do whatever I want)
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Maybe we are actually entering the Kiṁsukopama Sutta (SN 35. 245) grounds, but I think the first post is kinda right. Whatever it is, real or not, in terms of perception is more like a novelty rather than something to enter realization. You can base that on simple logic, whatever real or not = it has no value, so it’s ultimate because, no matter what, the outcome is the same. If something is real or not, people still can value it and enjoy it (dreams, for example). Even if they know it’s not real, they may even look forward to non-real things (people who practice lucid dreaming). I didn’t see a compelling argument for it either as an object of meditation or wisdom, as people can not penetrate through the unreality of the world in that sense in a non-jhanic mind, even as true.
From personal experience in jhana (arupa), it is as you say about (un)reality of the world, but that knowledge didn’t get me Nibbana even seeing it directly, but learning about the true nature of the world and ultimate factors (irrespective of the reality of something or not) did work as expected in developing Nibbana factors, so I do not understand or find any argument of this being relevant to the Path or Dhamma besides just basic information
Saurabh you do not need to be Sotapanna (as Dvihetuka for example) to “join” the Sangha and Dhamma stream, two stages below Sotapanna are Saddhānusārī and Dhammānusārī as Buddha said “nobody who has genuinely entered this teaching leaves empty-handed” in MN22
MN 70 (Kīṭāgiri Sutta) defines them by faculties. Both types are said to lack the formless liberations and to have taints not yet destroyed. The dhammānusārī has tathāgatappaveditā dhammā paññāya mattaso nijjhānaṁ khamanti plus the five indriya — saddhā, viriya, sati, samādhi, paññā. The saddhānusārī has saddhāmattaṁ hoti tathāgate pemamattaṁ plus those same five faculties.
Note the qualifier in both: mattaso, mattaṁ — “to a degree,” “only some.” Neither is being credited with much. What they are credited with is having the five faculties present and functioning.
Of both the Buddha says: appamādena karaṇīyaṁ — for this one there is still work to be done with diligence. He then names the three conditions under which it gets done: resorting to suitable dwellings, associating with kalyāṇamitta, and bringing the faculties into balance.
What must be actually fulfilled can be found in MN 70 which gives the sequence directly, and it answers in twelve steps:
saddhājāto upasaṅkamati — one in whom faith has arisen approaches;
upasaṅkamanto payirupāsati — approaching, he attends on the teacher;
payirupāsanto sotaṁ odahati — attending, he lends ear;
ohitasoto dhammaṁ suṇāti — lending ear, he hears the Dhamma;
sutvā dhammaṁ dhāreti — having heard, he retains it;
dhatānaṁ dhammānaṁ atthaṁ upaparikkhati — he examines the meaning of what he retains;
atthaṁ upaparikkhato dhammā nijjhānaṁ khamanti — examining the meaning, the teachings become acceptable through pondering;
dhammanijjhānakkhantiyā sati chando jāyati — zeal springs up;
chandajāto ussahati — he applies effort;
ussahitvā tuleti — he weighs and scrutinizes;
tulayitvā padahati — he strives;
pahitatto… paramaṁ saccaṁ sacchikaroti, paññāya ca naṁ paṭivijjha passati — striving, he realises the ultimate truth and penetrates it with wisdom.Step 7 is the dhammānusārī. Dhammā nijjhānaṁ khamanti is verbatim the definition.
Also about saddhānusārī – Per SN 25.1 you cannot qualify as saddhānusārī by fervor, by belonging, or by trusting a teacher. You qualify by having confidence in a particular claim about cakkhu, sota, ghāna, jivhā, kāya, mano — that they are of anicca, vipariṇāma, aññathābhāva nature.
It’s slightly off-topic, but from what I read, you seem to be close to the level of saddhānusārī. I’m just posting this so you don’t get discouraged; even if you cannot get a full understanding, you will not leave this world empty-handed.
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It’s no “no need to find answer for this”, it already answered, but people do not find it satisfying. Those topics (eggs or hen) are just distraction, if you would experience happiness and freedom from this world (hate, greed and lust) you would not really care for those things, people tend to those questions because they lack something in their practice
Thank you, Lal! I agree with what you say. Understanding kama-sanna is an addition that helps to establish anicca-sanna.
If Sanna is fundamentally 100% distorted and even an Arahant is constantly plagued by kamasanna, how can one become aware of the true nature? If we contact the world with our five senses, it will always fool us. People could also take the view that everything is illusion or simulation (natthi ayaṃ loko), so it doesn’t matter whether they purify their mind or not. Ultimately, the only remaining possibility is to develop wisdom and to realize the fruitlessness of existence (anatta).
An ignorant mind has a lot of blind spots that can be shaken off by a variety of “shock value” insights. For example, if you have color red, one person will like it/love it, another will hate it, and another will not care. If the color red would be objectivly “red” and had a quality outside your perception, it would affect everyone evenly. You need to look for proper pointers that will create “gaps” in the sansaric mind, so one can see Nibbana
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You do not really need to understand the exact meaning; all you need to do is reflect on Dhamma to the extent of your own understanding because it’s all interconnected. It is more important to feel energy and bring up things in Dhamma you can understand, and you want to develop. Truths you can perceive and see in the meditation, which leads to more insight.
That’s the core problem with “modern Buddhism” = I think just observing emotions is not enough to develop wisdom. Wisdom comes only when we see that these emotions are anicca, dukkha, and anatta.
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What you experienced is Buddhanusati, maybe Lal can do some proper translations about this topic.
I also found other interesting theories that I think are on the edge of pseudoscience. I made a summary of that information (I’m researching this topic a bit deeper):
Hameroff proposes that consciousness is quantum information stored in microtubules (structures inside neurons). When the body dies, this quantum information isn’t destroyed; it leaks out into the fundamental geometry of space-time. This provides a scientific framework for near-death experiences (NDEs) and the concept of a soul.
Hameroff discusses the OSIRIS-REx mission (led by his colleague Dante Loretta). He suggests that life and consciousness might be fundamental to the universe, potentially arriving on Earth via organic molecules found in asteroids. He posits that “protoconsciousness” existed in the universe before biological life even began.
Hameroff is pioneering research using Transcranial Ultrasound (TUS). He explains that Alzheimer’s is caused by the breakdown of microtubules. By “vibrating” them back into a healthy state with ultrasound, his studies show potential for reversing memory loss and cognitive decline.
Contrary to standard medical teaching that anesthesia acts on neuron membranes, Hameroff argues it acts specifically on the quantum vibrations of microtubules. He explains that during anesthesia, the brain remains active and “processing,” but the subjective experience of consciousness is turned off because the quantum process is dampened
Developed with Nobel Laureate Sir Roger Penrose, this theory suggests consciousness is not a “computation” (like a computer) but a series of “quantum collapses” in the brain that connect us to the fine-scale structure of the universe.
Hameroff argues that current AI is just “fancy math” based on binary switches. Because it lacks the quantum microtubule structures found in biology, he believes AI can simulate intelligence but will never actually “feel” or have subjective awareness.
Research by physicist Anirban Bandyopadhyay at the National Institute for Materials Science in Japan provided a boost to this theory. He discovered that microtubules exhibit high-frequency resonance (megahertz, gigahertz, and terahertz vibrations). This suggests that microtubules aren’t just structural; they are “vibrating” in a way that allows them to process information much faster than traditional neuronal firing.
If consciousness happens at the microtubule level, the “processing power” of the human brain increases by a factor of 1027 compared to the standard neuron-only model. This would explain why single-celled organisms (like Paramecium) can swim, find food, and mate without having a single neuron—they use their microtubules.
The Orch-OR theory provides a scientific (though controversial) hypothesis for what happens to consciousness at the moment of death.
- Planck Scale Information: Penrose argues that consciousness is a property of the Planck scale—the smallest, most fundamental level of the universe’s geometry.
- The Leakage Hypothesis: According to Hameroff, when the heart stops and blood stops flowing, the microtubules lose their quantum state (a process called decoherence). However, the quantum information inside them isn’t destroyed. Because of “quantum entanglement,” this information leaks out into the universe at large.
- NDEs (Near-Death Experiences): Hameroff suggests that if a patient is resuscitated, this quantum information “leaks back in,” which explains why people report out-of-body experiences or seeing their lives flash before them. If the patient dies, this information exists indefinitely as part of the fundamental fabric of space-time.
Supporting Evidence from “Quantum Biology”
The biggest criticism of this theory was once that the brain is “too warm, wet, and noisy” for quantum effects to survive. (Usually, quantum states require absolute zero temperatures). However, recent discoveries in other fields have proven that nature uses quantum tricks in warm environments:
- Photosynthesis: Research has shown that plants use “quantum coherence” to transfer sunlight into energy with nearly 100% efficiency. They essentially “test” all possible paths for the energy at once.
- Bird Navigation: It is widely accepted that some birds (like European Robins) navigate using quantum entanglement in their eyes, allowing them to literally “see” the Earth’s magnetic field.
- The Argument: If a leaf and a bird’s eye can use quantum mechanics at room temperature, it is highly probable that the human brain—the most complex structure in the known universe—has evolved to do the same.
Mainstream Critiques (The “Anti-Soul” View)
It is important to note that this theory is heavily debated.
- Max Tegmark: A well-known physicist from MIT, Tegmark published a paper arguing that quantum states in the brain would “decohere” (break down) in less than a trillionth of a second—far too fast to account for human thought.
- The Mainstream Consensus: Most neuroscientists believe consciousness is an “emergent property” of complex wiring. They argue that once the brain’s physical structure is gone, the “software” (consciousness) simply ceases to exist, much like a candle flame going out.
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Keep in my abid that the first “shot” of Dhamma is really life changing for many people, my couple of weeks when I found pure Dhamma and discourses, I was like Anagami (no desire, can not get mad, can not get sad, just clarity and wisdom that got even people interested in that change) but after a while a lot of things will come back, as this is just start of the way. To get this stage permanently, there is a whole process that may take a lifetime or a couple of lifetimes before you can achieve it. So do not worry if that happens, do not panic and do not think “there is something wrong with me” etc. it is good to be aware of it. You will need to find new ways to develop insight, new terms, new wisdom that will step by step dissolve ignorance
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Now, try to watch discourses and audio/videos related to that topic to solidify this state permanently
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