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You need to know that trying to understand Dhamma with hate, greed, and lust make no sense and it’s not possible. Understanding grows on its own when one is cutting them off.
The transition is so subtle that is not possible to even realize the movement from one to another till the new knowledge arises. For me it was for first 2 days or 3 days I was so entertained by it beyond words but later on, it’s matured on its own and kind of “switches” when this state matures on its own.
I would like to share the experience but this is beyond the possibility of this world. A mind can be adapted to the higher realms like that only when exposed to it directly but for me, the experience bypassed the mind or the mundane mind which we use to work with in relation to six senses. What Lal is saying is right with the experience in the limitations of rational understanding of such phenomena which is the best you can get without proper experience. I’m already shared some of my meditative experiences but I doubt anybody believes them (for me would be hard to believe that without being subject to those experiences). This type of experiences of beyond rupa jhanas and their aspects like infinite space etc. if I start speaking about them nobody would take it seriously as the mind will negate those experiences being to used to limitations of six senses. That’s why I always mention that most of the things people ask, are curious about or want to fill up themselves with the ideas which are nonsense and got nothing to do with Buddha Dhamma, we can come to some understanding without experience as Lal presented but it does not lead anywhere besides having some idea – even to really grasp right idea of such experiences and not distorted imagination itself person need to be cultivated to some extent or have some insight into Nibbana to deduce those things of how they are (they already need to have some Panna to penetrate into that stuff). I would rather believe that dragons exist and things that happen with fantasy books or Indian mythology is more real then what happens beyond out limitations of our six senses if I would be not subject to those experiences – there would be no way I could possibly believe such things even when explained exactly how it is (which is not possible to be exact with it to bridge and transport any sense to regular person).
“Both akasa and vinnana are infinite. One can experience that (I have not) when one gets into the first two arupavacara jahna of Ākāsānancāyatana and Viññāṇañcāyatana.
Ākāsānancāyatana comes from Ākāsā + ananta + ayatana, which means it is “infinite spatial plane”. Plane does not mean a two-dimensional surface. I cannot think about a suitable English word; it just means “it is out there”
I’m surprised that you explain it very well without experience. I happen to experience it for a couple days and it’s as you say. It’s out there, explaining it in normal mundane words is not possible, when I experienced it as a thought of it as Nibbana as suffering there is so subtle that you have a hard time to recognize it.
Yes, sorry Lal.
I just think the author of this post will do more harm on focusing to regulate such things by sheer force of will which would not overcome gathi to listen such music but understanding nature of this world will cut off craving to do so without much effort. I think it’s dangerous for the mind to regulate things like listening music like this, or like that, doing this and that – your mind will go inside, live naturally as you wish without fighting with yourself and then introduce Dhamma into daily life – the results will be better for sure. Beating up mind into submission will lead only to becoming insane if we try to control those things as they are anyway Anatta.
@Lal
In Kotthita Sutta, Venerable Sariputta explains that the problem is not an eye or music but the craving (on the basis of ignorance)
My own experience is that I would listen to the music for example after understanding Anicca to some extent I would not need to suppress anything the craving just do not come when it comes to certain things and it dependent on that understanding.
Totally not agree. Buddha Dhamma is not about poking out eyes nor destroying objects of affection for that eye. If that would be the case attaining Nibbana will not be possible.
Ven. Kotthita: “How is it, friend Sariputta, is … the ear the fetter of sounds or are sounds the fetter of the ear?…”
Ven. Sariputta: “Friend Kotthita, the … ear is not the fetter of sounds nor are sounds the fetter of the ear, but rather the desire and lust that arise there in dependence on both: that is the fetter there….”
“I mean Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta. You can choose the translation that appeals more to you, that’s not the point.”
You can not choose a translation that appeals more to you as you will develop further ignorance. Progress is attained by breaking what is appealing to you. If its something you can not break then it’s true.
Upekkha your attitude is like trying to prove Buddha or Buddha Dhamma wrong at all the cost. Opposing everything rather than trying to figure it out how things are. I will give a couple tips so it will be easier to figure it out.
First, most people act like a blind person who trying to negate their own blindless on the arguments of nonexistence something that they can’t see. The problem is not “how I can see it” but “I do not see it so it must be something wrong going on” ignoring ones one blindness in those matters. Thinking that we are able to know things related to Buddha out of nowhere or with the basis on some information around without proper practice and experience of Nibbana is nonsense – I can’t believe that people just can’t get it as simple as that.
“So if even an Arahant did not know, how can anyone with lesser stages of Nibbana determine this for themselves?”
The question is: Do really Arahant didn’t know he attained Arahantship or didn’t have enough knowledge to express it the right way to bring satisfactory attention of others? We need to know exactly or as close to an exact contest of situation – otherwise we will harm ourselves by creating negative reactions towards what we do not know/understand of how things are at that moment when Arahant was expressing his experience of Nibbana.
Making up conclusions on the basis of “liking and disliking” or on the basis of “what I think” will kill any genuine investigation of Dhamma closing way doors to Nibbana.“Why is it that some Ariyas know with certainty, while others have no idea, and others doubt? What causes one to be certain and causes others to doubt/not know/forget?”
My idea for that is like with someone who got roofies into their drink but as medicine. For example, you have cancer, you do not know it. Somebody drops you a pill and you get rid of cancer without even knowing. I think certain individuals have the potential for Nibbana that in right push or input their mind achieved Nibbana without them realizing really the depth of such experience or “state” they are in, but I doubt my own theory simply because of my own experience. I would rather say like above that person has limited expression of Nibbana till death. We do not really know but what we know is the most important which is there is Nibbana that we can attain. Projecting ICCA view is inevitable on those topics for most people who did not yet attain Nibbana of Sotapanna but at least please be aware of such “projection”. We can not satisfy our mind nor any of six senses with whatever input besides cutting off from this craving to do so.
I would need to speak to Buddha about it if I’m right or wrong but this is how it is related to my experience and experience of others I’m trying to guide into Nibbana.
The first entry of Nibbana can be very potent before it stabilizes itself as Sotapanna, Sakadagami etc. One person can have so strong samadhi that it can actually make one think that one attain a higher stage of what he really attained. To take the example of suttas see how many Sotapannas have different reactions in relation to stream entry. Sariputta saw “Deathless” when encountering first stream-entry, he would recognize it quickly or had very strong experience while others can’t deny the truth of Nibbana and Buddha teachings but they experience is not that deep or intense as some of the others.
My idea behind it (which I would like to ask Buddha as this is just in terms of simple observation) I personally had very strong “hunger” for Nibbana without really knowing what exactly I was looking for before I found it. Imagine this like eating different things but it does not really feel like it satisfies you, you can feel you eaten but it’s not just “it”. People who happen to have some spark or possibility to attain Nibbana but do not have that “fire” or “hunger” I see tends to experience Nibbana rather slowly or like Lal explained in his post that sometimes it takes weeks before one sees it. If the pressure is strong and a person is looking for Nibbana without even knowing what exactly he is looking for I think he can expect very good “experience” of Nibbana even before attain Anagami or Arahant stage. A person who is just “interested” or “curious” would rather have small or almost to none experience beside clarity of insight into Nibbana.
Upekkha. Do not complicate things brother. Metta are attained in understanding nature of this world. Whatever Buddha speaks, he speaks about one thing (Nibbana) from different angles. You cultivate metta by getting rid of tanha and avijja. Once you get rid of cravings, ignorance and you see there is no point doing bad things – natural niramisa sukha arises which gives birth to metta, karuna etc.
Any type of “keeping something” is still anariya bhavana and anariya thinking.
Dhamma123 have so serious issues with himself and we would like to help you but you need to stop behaving like it’s our fault. Stop acting like a victim without any responsibilities. If you are not able to grow up as an adult and respect other people but trying to attacking them all the time and at the same time ask for help or anything it will not do anything well. If you would really looking for help you would not make a problem out of it.
May you attain Nibbana and please do not pollute this forum with your rants as I explained it before people who rant they use to play “compassion card” on others. We clearly want to build stable and clear community here, if you want to be part of it try to adapt rather than make up your own excuses to act without any mindfulness.
