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Again this makes no sense, will create more confusion and problems then it really is to solve. It’s not logical and will confuse people who will just start to believe how it is as they will have no way to figure it out. Please stop those misinterpretations as you yourself admitted that you do not let go or dissolved sakkaya ditthi which your wrong views on sakkaya ditthi can be results of sakaya ditthi.
If you translate it rightfully or use explanations of those Pali words you will clearly see it got nothing to do with “self”
Anicca Sanna is enough to attain Nibbana (AN 7.66)
Yes Siebie, those are very bad – if you can’t stop using them it will be nice :)
Anicca is enough (SN22.102)
Anicca is enough (AN6.102)
Anicca is enough (AN7.95)Thank you very much Lal for this post. Very refreshing. Many expect from Dhamma to be fireworks and turn their life around in one night totally ignoring the facts you stated about human nature which can be discouraging for practice but once one understands the limitations of being human one will deal better with obstacles on the Path. :)
Thank you very much Lal for this post. Very refreshing. Many expect from Dhamma to be fireworks and turn their life around in one night totally ignoring the facts you stated about human nature which can be discouraging for practice but once one understands the limitations of being human one will deal better with obstacles on the Path.
Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, “‘One who dwells in the Dhamma, one who dwells in the Dhamma’: thus it is said, lord. To what extent is a bhikkhu one who dwells in the Dhamma?”
“Monk, there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions. He spends the day in Dhamma-study. He neglects seclusion. He doesn’t commit himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on study, not one who dwells in the Dhamma.
“Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and teaches it in full detail to others. He spends the day in Dhamma-description. He neglects seclusion. He doesn’t commit himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on description, not one who dwells in the Dhamma.
“Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and recites it in full detail. He spends the day in Dhamma-recitation. He neglects seclusion. He doesn’t commit himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on recitation, not one who dwells in the Dhamma.
“Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and thinks about it, evaluates it, and examines it with his intellect. He spends the day in Dhamma-thinking. He neglects seclusion. He doesn’t commit himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on thinking, not one who dwells in the Dhamma.
“Then there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions. He doesn’t spend the day in Dhamma-study. He doesn’t neglect seclusion. He commits himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who dwells in the Dhamma.
“Now, monk, I have taught you the person who is keen on study, the one who is keen on description, the one who is keen on recitation, the one who is keen on thinking, and the one who dwells in the Dhamma. Whatever a teacher should do — seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them — that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monk. Don’t be heedless. Don’t later fall into regret. This is our message to you.”
Dhamma-viharin Sutta
What lies beyond Nibbana? AN 4.174
Then Ven. Maha Kotthita went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, “With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media [vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, & intellection] is it the case that there is anything else?”
[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”
[Maha Kotthita:] “With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media, is it the case that there is not anything else?”
[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”
[Maha Kotthita:] “…is it the case that there both is & is not anything else?”
[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”
[Maha Kotthita:] “…is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?”
[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”
[Maha Kotthita:] “Being asked if, with the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media, there is anything else, you say, ‘Don’t say that, my friend.’ Being asked if … there is not anything else … there both is & is not anything else … there neither is nor is not anything else, you say, ‘Don’t say that, my friend.’ Now, how is the meaning of your words to be understood?”
[Sariputta:] “The statement, ‘With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media [vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, & intellection] is it the case that there is anything else?’ objectifies non-objectification.[1] The statement, ‘… is it the case that there is not anything else … is it the case that there both is & is not anything else … is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?’ objectifies non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes. However far objectification goes, that is how far the six contact media go. With the remainderless fading & stopping of the six contact-media, there comes to be the stopping, the allaying of objectification.
“There are these four types of thunderheads. Which four?[…]
“And how is one the type of person who thunders but doesn’t rain? There is the case where a person has mastered the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions. Yet he doesn’t discern, as it actually is present, that ‘This is stress.’ He doesn’t discern, as it actually is present, that ‘This is the origination of stress.’ He doesn’t discern, as it actually is present, that ‘This is the cessation of stress.’ He doesn’t discern, as it actually is present, that ‘This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.’ This is the type of person who thunders but doesn’t rain. This type of person, I tell you, is like the thunderhead that thunders but doesn’t rain.
Like I said this will not bring any benefit, if one can not attain magga phala and keep up making ideas (the one you made belongs to Mahāyāna view which is more and more clear that you are crypto-mahayanist) it will not do, why you constantly look for acceptance from other people? If you understanding is right you should be already Anagami or Arahant. What you are trying to do also with sakkya ditthi thread is trying to think of a color that you do not know. It’s impossible – try to understand key things that leads to Nibbana and from that one can get deeper into those concepts but one can attain Nibbana even without knowing all of that if one know only key dhamma concepts that leads to it.
Repeating the same wrong views, again and again, does not make them right either. MN44 has wrongly translated sutta and what it’s spoken there has nothing to do with what Buddha meant there. Stopping the “I” making does not lead to the end of suffering, end of hate, greed, and lust, etc. You will be just more delusional then a regular person who just living life ignorantly about things and just following things like dogs follow the stick or bone.
You are repeating hinduism teachings which Buddha discarded, how hard is to understand that by thinking this way you will never get into Nibbana?
Sariputta explained it clearly it’s neither self (or any six sense door) or objects of perceptions but CRAVING which arise on the basis of AVIJJA (not knowing true nature of this world). Imagine being robbed by muggers that take fake money you have from a monopoly (but they do not know it and think it’s real) even that YOU (SELF) have been robbed you still does not suffer as that money is worthless.
“We constantly graps at those arising phenomena, at this ever changing stream, as ‘me’ and ‘mine’. This habit is going on since beginningless time.”
That’s simply not true. Constantly pushing this speculative idea will only bring yourself more harm and more suffering as one can not disassociate yourself from arising phenomena – is like the people who want to stop thinking process and say the same stuff as you but just change “me” and “mine” to “Thinking” and “thoughts. It’s pure nonsense which I already make clear about. The only thing you can do is to see the futility of things which got nothing to do with self/no self nor the objects of your perception. Even if we take your wrong understanding and play devil’s advocate so the only right thing with “I’m” making would be “I want this I want that, I want to be happy” – this would be proper sakkya ditthi as one realized that “I will never be happy” but “I” itself got nothing to do as it’s just agent which will exists till one attain full Nibbana. Using this as starting point to get yourself rid of yourself is just plain unwholesome as you are not the problem but TANHA and AVIJJA and only permanently getting rid of it one get rids of “I” on Arahant stage. Just yapping around that “I” is a problem one will become mentally ill or end up parroting views without any change in their experience in tanha and avijja.
Whatever you doing – you are doing it too hard/wrong. This is not a state but sounds like suppression. Try to use understanding rather focusing/concentration as it’s not right for sure.
No, you just believing things to your liking, that fits your world view or your expectations which is a sign of ignorance. The problems are not “self” neither “non/no self” but:
Ven. Kotthita: "How is it, friend Sariputta, is ... the ear the fetter of sounds or are sounds the fetter of the ear?..." Ven. Sariputta: "Friend Kotthita, the ... ear is not the fetter of sounds nor are sounds the fetter of the ear, but rather the desire and lust that arise there in dependence on both: that is the fetter there...."“The impression that there is someone inside us experiencing something is part of delusion.”
Delusion is not about you being this or that but not seeing things as they are (not seeing Anicca nature, Anatta nature, how PS cycles are working in your mind, etc.)
“The notion of an-I-who-does-the-experiencing is yet part of our make-up. It arises due to latent tendency, mana-anusaya. This anusaya gets triggered when there is sense-contact. So, when there is sense-contact, there almost immediately arises the notion of an entity-I who sees, who hears, who thinks, who, speaks, who lives, who feels etc.”
Still wrong, this is hinduism (neti neti yoga) which Buddha discarded. When you see, hear, smell, think, touch, etc. what arises is avijja and tanha, not the notion of “I”. For example, if someone you like kick a ball and score a goal you are happy, but if it was done by someone you dislike you feel hate or you just do not like – even the action is the same, the action itself does not have any quality for you to dislike it or like it. Avijja gets triggered and tanha as your reaction towards six senses doors which got nothing to do with a self or no self.
Those are just wrong views you are speaking of that new age people get fixed all around the internet and not only around it.
The only way to know what is Nibbana, one needs to get rid of avijja and tanha. There is no other way, any speculative knowledge and guessing will only harm yourself and give your wrong idea about things. It’s will make your mind more unclear. Rather than think your way out to get what Nibbana is, apply the process which one can know and attain Nibbana? Do not let ignorance run out like that as you harming yourself by doing that. It’s really not that hard to understand if one stops a bit and give it a thought.
Again sybe, you can not make it up with the thinking process make sense out of it prior to attaining any magga phala as you will be going of opposite direction actually and that what you are doing and that what I mean you do not practice Dhamma but you practicing thinking about Dhamma.
Thank you for all kind words
Thank you Lal for an explanation but then I have a question on the basis of that – how one judge then a schism in the Sangha or if one is making such schism when leads to Apayas?
I’m pointing the way out for you in your struggle. You trying to first experience things without approaching Dhamma in practical/experiential way but expect to have understanding and experience before any efforts towards it – you are trying to achieve impossible, the quicker you get this the better for you and your future. From the start of being you have been pretty much antagonistic approach to Lal, this forum and message of Buddha here. I hope you are not just plain-trolling us but if you are sincerely about practice this is your time to turn into effort and do not hang over all time. Some questions can be only answered thru direct experience.
There are things beyond existing or not-existing, they are not graspable by mind and your thinking process, you will not figure it out that way. To understand Dhamma one needs to attain some factors of Nibbana to have at least glimpse of how things are so they turn into experience and wisdom. This is not hard to understand – just approach it the way I explained and for sure one way or another benefits will come. Start even with being moral and develop STRONG Sati so benefits will be there even just in mundane way.
You can not have idea how to be buff if you are just thinking about how it is – you need to start lift, learn about diet and supplements etc. same here, once you learn what to do – you do it and then you know it how it is – no other way around.
