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I think ‘there is control’ is an extreme view and ‘there is no control at all’ also is an extreme view.
Just because you can wash you teeth or workout it does not matter you have control over the body. You wash your teeth you can choke to death by doing that, what kind of control is that? Why people take steroids when working out? Because they do not have control over their body and “try” to fulfill “anatta” (and anicca which leads to dukkha). Just because you can act like it’s superpower. There is no control at all in terms of anatta. The only Atta is Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha which culminates into Nibbana.
The subtle aspect “anatta” here is lack control in “controlling” the body or mind. Anicca is trying to control in that context to get fulfillment but if you follow Four Noble Truths obviously those things make no sense (you mentioned)
Anapana is also listening to the discourses, reading proper Dhamma that leads to Nibbana, choosing to being in Sangha rather in or with ignorant people/places. You wont be able keeping mind pure without it unless you are extremely talented or have enough paramits.
You get into Dhamma with intention of finishing this birth, suffering and future one too realizing the dangers of it, once you go into Dhamma-Sangha-Buddha way you will be pulled off many times and this is when Ariya Anapana gets into practice to stay on the Path, mundane anapana is just being good person which is obviously not enough to attain Nibbana and may be not enough to get into Tihetuka birth.
You may not be aware of names or how to explain it with technical terms but you should know and see by your experience even if you are not able to understand that you are really seeing PS cycle happening and that it’s actually now broken with permanent switch of wisdom. You may be thinking “after Sotapanna should I know automatically what is on this site about PS cycle?” – No, you will know PS cycle but not as that if you do not educate yourself in that and you may see it even better which may leads to deeper insight and Sakadagami or Anagami etc.
I can agree but I can not find any explanation for it, even I lost any craving for jhana when doing my formal meditation with chants as I found that there is something else going on that helps me to attain and uproot tanha. I do not know how it is possible but I have not jhana factors yet they are factors that help me progress on the Path like samadhi, upekkha and clarity of mind. I even have lights before eyes that people have in 4th jhana but I can not tell if I’m in 4th jhana, it’s seems I have 4th jhana factors (or something similar to magga phala) without any jhana. I still didn’t find any satisfying explanation on what really going on BUT as long as I can see tanha disappearing I’m all fine with whatever happens as progress is ongoing. As Lal said one should not be discouraged because lack of jhana as one can make progress without it as long as one can get into “pure mind” to see things as they are (Anicca, Dukkhha, Anatta) and the fetters will fall off like crumbled glue off the mind.
“Ariya jhanas are permanent in nature compared to Anariya jhanas” – from post Ariya jhanas – power of human mind.
Now I started to doubting it. In the suttas even Buddha (before dying) goes into jhanas so if for Buddha does are not permanent so how it can be for Anagami and Arahant?
I think there need to be another or different route. Even myself I can recognize that when I do Ariya meditation I have results of getting better insight without jhana but have factors that are related to Nibbana which are different then jhana path (or regular meditation). There is something in it that does not feel right in the sense my experience showing that there is different route and Ariya factors that one experience permanently are not really related to jhana.
Any thoughts?
I agree, most of my progress related to Nibbana is without jhana to be honest. I realized when mind becomes pure but does not have jhana factors it makes “leap” into deeper state of Nibbana, understanding, not generating any tanha, attachment, better understanding. I realized that I need to have just mind pure enough to get it deeper but this seems like a different “Pathway”. Can you shed light about it? I’m not sure if it’s okay to keep going in this thread if we think we should create new please tell me. What I realized the most (and that let me go of jhanas really) that progress is made in different state of mind which is not jhana but it’s pure also and that purity or light joins with proper understanding and wisdom (panna) about true nature then I feel magga phala happens and deeper understanding, way and I can see how my mind works different on the same way he used to work. For example when I would lost something or something precious to me (before) I would have certain heat, emotions, thoughts coming up but now it not even happening like it would never happen, nothing comes up after those experiences I related with “clear light” or “clear mind” + deeper understanding of Anicca Sanna etc. after that I realized I do not need anything else, not even jhana to realize full Nibbana in the future, just repeat this pattern of getting mind pure and when purity is ready to mix this pure mind with wisdom but it’s really yoked, wisdom works on pure mind, pure mind works on wisdom at the same time or in cycles so to speak.
I agree how to get Nibbana is more important then explaining this thing about Nibbana which is self explanatory and kind of “organic” when one gets into those stages. I can not claim nirodha samapatti but I’m sure I been very close to it which was very similar to the lady in terms of experience I posted in “very advanced testimonial” :) but it may be just last arupa jhana, we would need to ask Buddha to explain it or verify it but we can not do that now so that’s all I can say about Nibbana that there is Nibbana without any residue but most people without any deeper meditative experience will still look into “me” and Nibbana, not just Nibbana, for me it’s too mystery how Nibbana can function itself and in relation to itself.
For me it’s also interesting and I can not explain the way I would like it, probably Abhidhamma explains it but in Nibbana there is only Nibbana and experience of it itself. I do not want to add much more to it because people start to think in the limited views and ideas that may be actually opposite to what really happen. I can not explain how Nibbana can be just Nibbana without consciousness etc. but this is how it is.
@y not
For me it’s easier to see what is in Nibbana because I have a lot of meditative experience especially higher arupa jhanas so what not make sense for regular person if you go beyond this realm it will start to make sense as you been and seen how things are up there. In Nibbana there is only Nibbana, nothing else. If you practice it will make sense to you too. :)
f you ask me, this forum topic has come to appear more like a Mahāyāna inquiry into emptiness, nothingness, sunnyata: no experiencer? The same old questions about Nibbana come up. Who is it, apart from the pancakkhandhas, that experiences? The manomayakaya shorn of all that is positive and negative, with only what is neutral remaining
When reading it and your question I realized that after Nibbana is only Nibbana and this is how it is. One may not grasp it or make sense of it but after Nibbana there is only Nibbana. If you inquiry on it – it make really clear sense. In Nibbana there is only Nibbana
I have no idea what kind of “noting” Adam is speaking of. I think we are on different page and judging by your own ideas rather then understanding what I said will not bring any benefit to be honest. The wrong notion of “remaining” suggest anariya practices (probably sayadaw?). What I speak here is permanent and does not need any further practice once reached one does not start PS cycles once fetters are broken forever to that extent of those fetters being broken.
Even if we base this question on the base of simple logic – to learn count to ten or to learn to speak properly, write or even have basic societal understanding and orientation you go to school and learn. Logical things are not necessary to be proven thru suttas as they are obvious. So as we can see to learn how to count to 10 you need to highly qualified person to do so, so person who will teach Dhamma obviously need to be at least Sotapanna to see things as they are so he/she can explain it.
It will not work that way because people are okay with it knowing that the way you explained.
Without meaning and something to trigger switch it will be just accepted as set of believes. To get rid of lust one need to have meaning to what is said or explained – the way you explained is without meaning, if you will add Dukkha Sanna to it in between lines to make a contrast or anything to gave it meaning it would be better. Just saying sky is blue and grass is green have no much value without proper wisdom or meaning that can bring insight.
