[Lal]

“Sir actually I asked my above 2 questions about if seven factors of awakening lead to nibbana and about how to cultivate them before I could see your following post…”

• OK. That explains what happened.
• Your other comments below clarify that you are contemplating my long post. The main point is that Nibbana can be reached only by dispelling raga, dosa, and moha by cultivating wisdom (panna.) 
• In my analogy of the glass of water, the mud can be removed by a physical process (by scooping it out or filtering using a filter). However, the defilements in a mind (samyojana/gati) can be removed only by wisdom (panna.)

To address the question you raised at the end: “So sir, is it wrong if I am trying to practice anything to develop any of the 4 factors of awakening without being sotapanna? I mean I am not sotapanna so I should not try to understand/study about those 7 factors now right?”

• There are two versions of the “eightfold path,” “seven factors of enlightenment,” “Satipatthana,” etc. There is a mundane version and a Noble version.
• The Buddha discussed that in the “Mahā­cat­tārīsa­ka Sutta (MN 117).” I have written a post “Mahā Cattārisaka Sutta (Discourse on the Great Forty)” to discuss it, but I think a simpler discussion is probably needed. Anyway, you can read both and ask questions.
• Most people practice the mundane versions. The Noble versions can be practiced only after understanding the world’s “anicca nature.” 
• To become a Sotapanna and start on the noble path, one must practice the mundane versions and live a moral life. So, one should practice regardless. The practice automatically turns to the Noble version as one starts grasping the “anicca nature” and gradually removing sakkaya ditthi. 
• Buddha’s actual teachings have been underground for a long time. Most translators of the Pali Tipitaka (including suttas) today understand only the mundane versions. We cannot blame ourselves or the translators because that is what we have been taught for generations. Waharaka Thero (who has now passed away) was born a Sotapanna (meaning he had attained the Sotapanna stage in a previous life) and was responsible for uncovering the true meanings of many concepts. 

 

[Lal]

Saurabh asked: “1) Can developing all the seven factors of awakening lead one to nibbana?
2) If it can lead one to nibbana then how do I develop all of them? Is there any practice for that?”

I hope you read my comment above carefully before starting on the seven awakening factors. It appears that you read through my comment in a few minutes. Reading and understanding are two different things.

• The seven awakening factors (at least the Noble version leading to Nibbana) can be cultivated only by a Sotapanna.
• One must first understand the basic framework of Buddha’s worldview to become a Sotapanna. That means realizing the anicca nature of the world. Do you understand the meaning of “anicca nature”? If not, I can recommend some posts. 

If anyone has questions about my comment above, I can answer them. It is critical to understand those basics.

[Lal]

I have written the following comment, which I plan to post next week as a regular post. In the meantime, we can discuss and revise it to address further questions.

Attaining Nibbāna Requires Understanding Buddha’s Worldview 

Summary: Nibbāna cannot be reached by following a set of rituals. It requires understanding how the Buddha described the world that we live in. That worldview vastly differs from all the worldviews humans (no matter how intelligent) have ever proposed. Attaining Nibbāna requires a mindset change.

Too Many Myths/Misconceptions About Nibbāna

1. Many versions of Buddhism or Buddha Dhamma are being practiced today.

• One common misconception is that if one can follow the five (or eight) precepts and engage in “meditation,” one can attain Nibbāna. Here, “meditation” refers explicitly to “breath meditation.” 
• A good example is the “Vipassanā meditation” method by the late S.N. Goenka. We have had many discussions on the forum regarding this program. See, for example, “About Vipassanā-insight technique taught by teacher S.N. Goenka” and “Goenka´s Vipassanā.”
• Here, I will describe the framework of the path to Nibbāna according to the Tipiṭaka, the Pāli Scriptures written down by a group of Arahants at the Fourth Buddhist Council two thousand years ago. 

Rāga, Dosa, Moha – Root Causes of a Stressed Mind

2. Many people become faithful believers in “breath meditation” because it helps calm the mind. For those who have experienced that calming effect, it provides solid evidence that one can control one’s mind and make it calm. However, the negative aspect of that experience is that people get addicted to it and do not realize that it is only a temporary solution to a long-term problem.

• To investigate this issue further, let’s examine the root causes of a stressed mind.
• Think about the status of our minds while going through life. When we are attracted to something, our minds become agitated because we have a nagging feeling of the need to fulfill that desire. In other words, greedy thoughts make a mind agitated. The root cause is “rāga” or “craving for worldly things.”
• If one gets angry, his mind gets heated, and the anger shows in the face, too. The result is an uncomfortable, heated mind. Usually, the origin of that anger is the craving for something and not getting it. For example, if two men pursue the same woman, they may become enemies and get into heated arguments. Here, the root cause for an unsettled mind is dosa or anger/hate.
• Then, there are situations where a mind becomes dull, lazy, and depressed. The root cause here is moha or avijjā, which we will clarify below.

Rāga, Dosa, Moha Lead to Suffering in Future Lives Too

3. The Buddha pointed out that the three root causes of rāga, dosa, and moha are responsible for our suffering in this life. In addition—and even more importantly—our actions based on rāga, dosa, and moha also dictate suffering in future lives. 

• Both aspects can be explained via the laws of kamma (or Paṭicca Samuppāda.) Our actions with rāga, dosa, and moha in mind lead to immoral deeds (called papa kamma) that can bring adverse results (kamma vipaka) in this life or future lives. 
• But how can we stop such thoughts with rāga, dosa, and moha rising in our minds?
• That requires a lengthy explanation. However, the first stage is to understand that the problem of suffering is not restricted to this life. We must understand how and why suffering does not end at death and continues into future lives via a rebirth process. 
• This website provides evidence of the rebirth process and other details. This post summarizes the framework of the “big picture” necessary to get a preliminary idea of Buddha’s teachings.

An Analogy of a Glass of Water

4. The Buddha used various analogies to describe how a mind becomes agitated, heated, or lethargic under different conditions.

• A “stress-free mind” is like a tall glass of pure water. That suffering-free mind is called a “pabhassara mind.” Thoughts arising in a pabhassara mind are like clear water poured from that glass of pure water. They are not immoral or moral, just neutral. 
• The mind of a puthujjana (average human) is like a tall glass of water with fine mud particles. If left undisturbed, all the mud will settle at the bottom of the glass, and the water on top will look clean. If we gently pour some water, it will look like pure water. In the same way, when in a calm situation (e.g., while in breath meditation), our thoughts appear to be “neutral” without causing stress. 
• However, that water can be disturbed by stirring it with a straw, and then some mud at the bottom comes up, making the water muddy. Pouring some muddy water out is analogous to generating “defiled thoughts.”
• Thus, in that analogy, layers of mud accumulated at the bottom of the glass are analogous to defiled gati or “saṁsāric bonds” (“saṁyojana“) in Buddha’s teachings.

Gati and Saṁyojana – Root Causes Triggering Rāga, Dosa, Moha

5. The Buddha pointed out that a suffering-free state of mind is hidden by ten layers of “saṁsāric bonds” called saṁyojana (the reason for calling them “saṁsāric bonds” will become clear later.) Three of the ten layers lead to wrong views (diṭṭhi, part of moha/avijjā), five to rāga, and three to moha/avijjā. We attach to “worldly things” with taṇhā based on the diṭṭhi and rāga. Thus, our defiled thoughts arise due to taṇhā and avijjā, as explained in some suttās. 

• These ten saṁyojana stay hidden until a tempting sensory input is encountered. Depending on the sensory input, all or some of the ten saṁyojana can be “triggered” by that sensory input. For example, seeing a beautiful woman can trigger kāma rāga saṁyojana in a man. The sight of an enemy can trigger the paṭigha saṁyojana and generate anger.
• The five types of “defiled gati” play a similar role as the ten saṁyojana. They represent different aspects. For example, an “animal gati” (which is in all puthujjana) can be triggered by a strong sensory input, for instance, in the case of a rape or killing.  

Temporary Calm Versus Permanent Calm (Nibbāna)

6. Thus, a mind can get to “samadhi,” or a “peaceful state of mind,” if the mind is prevented from being exposed to sensory experiences of daily life. The longer one can stay in such an “isolated environment” (like a meditation retreat), the longer the experience can last. This is why ancient yogis went into deep jungles to be away from sesnory inputs that can trigger “saṁyojana” or “gati” and trigger rāga, dosa, and moha defilements come to the surface.

• It is only by understanding the reasons for those “saṁyojana” or “gati” to exist that we can start breaking the “saṁsāric bonds” or “saṁyojana” (equivalently to get rid of various “gati“).
• When one starts grasping Buddha’s worldview (and understanding how suffering arises), the first three saṁyojanās are permanently removed at the Sotapanna stage. This involves the removal of sakkāya diṭṭhi and two other diṭṭhi saṁyojana.
• At the subsequent two stages of Sakadāgāmi and Anāgāmi, one would comprehend how kāma rāga (and paṭigha or dosa) arises due to “distorted/false saññā” (associated with existences in kāma loka) that we discuss briefly below in #9. 
• Two more types of rāga (rupa rāga and arupa rāga) are removed by an Anāgāmi by contemplating the “distorted/false saññā” associated with the Brahma realms. Avijja and two other saṁyojanās associated with avijjā are also removed at the Arahant stage.

Analogy of a Glass of Pure Water

7. Once all ten saṁyojanās are broken (and the five major gati removed), that is like permanently removing the mud at the bottom of a glass in the analogy of #4 above.

• As we saw in #6 above, removing the ten saṁyojanās at various stages of Nibbāna is analogous to removing layers of mud at the bottom of the glass.
• Once all the mud in the glass is removed, the water will remain pure no matter how much one tries to stir it with a straw. 
• In the same way, the mind of an Arahant will be pure no matter where he lives. He can live among the most beautiful women, and no sensual thoughts will arise. That is also true for an Anāgāmi who has removed kāma rāga and paṭigha saṁyojana.
• A Sotapanna has only understood the basic framework and would still attach to the “distorted/false saññā” associated with sensual sensory inputs in kāma loka. However, since they have removed the three ditthis (especially sakkāya diṭṭhi), their minds cannot be disturbed to the extent of committing “apāyāgāmi kamma,” which can lead to rebirths in the apāyās. Thus, they are permanently free of rebirths in the four lowest realms (apāyās.)

Saṁsāric Bonds (Saṁyojana) Can be Removed Only with Wisdom (Paññā)

8. The Buddha taught that all those root causes can be traced back to avijjā (or moha), generally translated as “ignorance.” The “ignorance” is not to realize the world’s true nature. This is critical because attaining Nibbāna (or becoming free of suffering) requires comprehending Buddha’s worldview (how suffering arises) and dispelling avijjā. 

• Thus, attaining Nibbāna critically depends on cultivating wisdom (paññā) by understanding the root causes of avijjā. Even though living a moral life is necessary, Nibbāna cannot be reached by following a set of rituals.
• Instead of using the ten saṁyojana, we could also say the same using five “main gati” (pronounced “gathi.”) The closest translation of “gati” is “character/habits.” One attains Nibbāna by removing all five gati. But those five gati can be split into various types. The main point here is that one’s habits (based on character) determine one’s actions, i.e., kamma generation. Posts related to these terms can be found using the “Search” box on the top right.

Root Cause of Taṇhā = “Distorted/False Saññā“

9. Humans have an innate idea/perception (Buddha used the Pāli word “saññā” to label it) that things in the world are “on a solid footing” and can be relied on to achieve happiness. That saññā seems natural at any given moment when we make our decisions.

• However, if we consider what happens in the world over a long time, it becomes clear that everything in the world is “impermanent” and is on an “unstable foundation.” We all get old and die; the same applies to all animals, trees, or structures we build. Scientists now confirm that even the stars like our Sun and planets like Earth will be destroyed. 
• In other posts, we have discussed how this world of “impermanence of things” arises (or is maintained) via the collective minds of all sentient beings defiled with rāga, dosa, and moha. As discussed in many posts, the “impermanence of things in the world” is a consequence of not comprehending the anicca nature of the world. Instead, we have a mindset of “nicca nature,” i.e., a “distorted/false saññā” about things in the world.
• Thus, it is critical to note that impermanence is associated with “things in the world,” and “anicca nature” is a “state of mind” realized after comprehending Buddha’s teachings. Until then, one has the mindset of “nicca nature” (i.e., the world is on a solid foundation to provide happiness) based on the “distorted/false saññā” about things in the world. This paragraph contains the essence of Buddha’s teachings and requires a lengthy explanation. This website describes various ways to get there.
• These days, most English translations translate “anicca” and “impermanence,” which is a grave error! By the way, the Sanskrit word “anitya” means “impermanence,” but it is not the same as the Pāli word “anicca.”

2 users thanked author for this post.

HugoZyl, Saurabh@2110

[Lal]

 Question 10: I don’t understand the point. Such questions are a waste of time.

Question 11: Plants are not animals because plants cannot think. However, they respond to environmental effects. Just because we can make a robot move and do tasks does not mean a robot can think.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Waisaka

[Lal]

@ HugoZyl: I don’t think it is a valid point. 

• Let us stick to the teachings of the Buddha. I will post a comment later today, and we can discuss that.

[Lal]

You wrote: “But in any case, I don’t think even mindfulness of breathing gives permanent eradication of defiled thoughts. It’s more of temporary solution.”

• That is correct, and that is the bottom line. 
• So, I don’t think we need to discuss whether “breathing meditation” can lead to Nibbana. It simply cannot.
• Do I need to answer any other questions in your above comment? If so, please point them out. I think they are all related to this issue.
• I will make some comments on how to cultivate the path to Nibbana. It may take a day or two.

By the way, I entered your above quote in Google Docs, and it immediately corrected the errors as follows: 

“But in any case, I don’t think even mindfulness of breathing permanently eradicates defiled thoughts. It’s more of a temporary solution.”

• Can you see how easy it is to generate a better comment?
• Please compose your comments (especially the lengthy ones) in Google Docs. It is free. There are other free word-processing software, too. I hope others will follow this advice, too.

P.S. You made the following comment while I was responding to the earlier one: “Yes sir I am exploring topics you suggested above. There are many many of them! I was searching for something like ‘do it daily and you will reach nibbana’. But I guess that’s not how it works.”

• Understanding Buddha’s teachings takes an effort. 

1 user thanked author for this post.

Saurabh@2110

[Lal]

I read through the rest of your comment to understand what you mean by “dhamma.” You seem to describe it as follows:

“keen investigation of the dhamma (dhammavicaya) in the form of contemplation of impermanence of thoughts..”

• Is that what you mean by dhamma? “contemplation of impermanence of thoughts”?

If so, how would that lead to Nibbana?

• In a related question, what do you understand by “Nibbana“?
• In other words, what is the goal of your practice?

P.S. There are still many grammar issues. You can ask a free AI program like ChatGPT or Grok to check your grammar. It is not hard, making it easier for the readers to understand your comments.

[Lal]

Thank you for making the effort to write concisely.

I highlighted two critical statements you made in the first part of your comment.

• I can see how one could think “focusing on the breath” could be equated to “mindfulness.” (It is not. I will explain in a future comment.)
• Since focusing on the breath keeps a mind away from defiled thoughts (those with raga, dosa, moha), it also provides a “relief to the mind” (which one may experience as “piti/sukha.”), and that may give an incentive to do more (i.e., viriya.) (But that effect is temporary. I will explain in a future comment.)

Can you explain how “focusing on the breath” leads to a “keen investigation of the dhamma”?

P.S. Also, what do you mean by “dhamma”?

[Lal]

Hello Saurabh,

I want to make two suggestions for commenting on the forum. This applies to everyone, so please don’t be offended.

1. It is unnecessary to quote the entire comment by another person.

• It is a good idea to quote part of a comment (like in your last comment above) and express your thoughts about it. 
• In other cases, refer to someone’s quote by indicating his/her name (as I have revised your other two comments above.)

2. I have revised some of your comments above to make them a bit more clear.

• I recommend using word processing software, which I have also recommended to others. There are many free online software packages, such as Google Docs.
• It is hard enough to express our thoughts in words, so we need to make an effort to convey our ideas as clearly as possible. The message/ideas can get lost with grammar errors.

3. I will think about your comments/questions and will comment later today. In the meantime, I hope others will also provide their suggestions.

P.S. Sorry about the delay in replying. I live in a different time zone (United States). You are probably in India.

[Lal]

Thank you, Amin. This is an excellent video.

I was going to add it to the following post on writing Pali words with the English alphabet, but I see that it is already in the post:

“Tipiṭaka English” Convention Adopted by Early European Scholars – Part 1

• It is good to learn how to write and pronounce Pali words correctly!

 

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Amin

[Lal]

Good observations!

Regarding: “5. Do not use the words ‘I’, ‘me’, ‘my’ or ‘mine’ unless you have to whether with voice or thought.”

• There is nothing wrong with using the ‘I’, ‘me’, ‘my’ or ‘mine.’ We have to use those words to live in this world. Even the Buddha used those words.
• Instead, we need to try to control our greedy actions, which are based on the false view/idea/saññā of ‘I’, ‘me’, ‘my’, or ‘mine’, i.e., trying to acquire more and more worldly things. That “greedy mindset” also leads to our actions with anger.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Amin

[Lal]

Waisaka wrote: “In recent times, I have been contemplating about asankhata and sankhata; in my opinion, contemplating concepts of the Buddha’s dhamma is a form of meditation for Lokutarra understanding because that is contemplating things that are rooted in VIJJA. Beings are born in samsara because they have thoughts about worldly concepts (conditioned) in the Paticca Samuppada patterns rooted in avijja..

When continuously contemplating the concept of the Buddha’s dhamma, one will gain awareness and reduce attachment to the world so that the shackles of the mind will collapse until reaching arahanthood.

My weakness since thinking about this concept is that I became too lazy to meditate formally.”

________

I revised your comment (more in the above quote) to understand your question. I recommend using word processing software, which I have also recommended to others. There are many free online software packages, such as Google Docs.

Anyway, can you describe precisely what you contemplate by giving an example for both asankhata and sankhata? I would like to understand where the issue is. Take your time and write it using the software as suggested above. Getting one’s ideas across can be difficult, and we must try our best. Otherwise, it can lead to confusion.

2 users thanked author for this post.

Saurabh@2110, Waisaka

[Lal]

Hello Saurabh, I think you have (or had) some wrong ideas about “practicing Buddha Dhamma” (like many others.)

1. “Practicing Buddha Dhamma” starts with understanding Buddha’s teachings. The “core teaching” is that the world of 31 realms is associated with unending suffering at various levels. Even though there can be long stretches of “happiness,” suffering dominates in the long run. 

• The critical point is that comprehension of “Buddha’s worldview” at a preliminary level leads to the first stage of Nibbana, where rebirths in the apayas will stop.
• When one starts understanding Buddha’s teachings, one becomes a Sotapanna Anugami (meaning one is “on the way to be free from the apayas.”)
• However, “moral living” is essential to this learning process. It is difficult for a mind burdened with immoral thoughts to understand Buddha’s teachings, so you should keep up with that aspect; it is good that you are already doing that. 

2. The difficult part is figuring out where to start. It varies widely from person to person. I do not know the level of understanding of people who read the website. So, one should scan the various sections and figure out “where to start.”

• I suggest scanning through the following sections first:  “Three Levels of Practice,” “Living Dhamma,” and “Bhāvanā (Meditation).”

3. The following summary could help understand the fundamental axioms of Buddha Dhamma.

• The First Noble Truth points out that there is a rebirth process with no discernible beginning. Each “sentient being” endures much more suffering in the apayas than any fleeting (on the scale of the rebirth process) happiness while born infrequently in the “good realms.” 
• The second Noble Truth points out that our immoral deeds are the root cause of suffering (i.e., the cause of rebirth in lower realms). Why do we engage in immoral actions? We believe/perceive that happiness is in external “mind-pleasing things” of the world (persons of opposite sex, houses, cars, money, etc.) Therefore, our future suffering is dictated by how much we are attached to “worldly pleasures.” Another way to say the same is “saṅkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā.” Thus, understanding pañcupādānakkhandhā is critical; see “Essence of Buddhism – In the First Sutta.”
  (At a deeper level (which is what my current weekly posts are focused on), the belief/perception (“distorted/false sanna) that happiness is in external “mind-pleasing things” of the world is wrong. You can get there gradually and understand that aspect. )
• How our cravings for “mind-pleasing things” in the world lead to suffering is analyzed in Paticca Samuppada. 
• Once one understands Paticca Samuppada, one’s understanding of the foundations of Buddha Dhamma becomes solidified, and one’s faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha (Nobel Persons; not all bhikkhus are Noble Persons) becomes unshakeable. That is when one attains the Sotapanna stage. 
• However, that first stage of understanding is not enough to attain the higher stages of Nibbana (Sakadagami, Anagami, and Arahant). But as you correctly stated, your goal is to reach the Sotapanna stage. 

4. Therefore, it is necessary to continue living a moral life (as you are doing now.) However, learning the “Buddha’s worldview” is essential to understanding how suffering is embedded in this world of 31 realms. You can also scan through the “Origin of Life” section if that approach makes sense.

• Each person is different. So, explore some of the ideas suggested above. Take your time. Feel free to ask questions as you proceed. You can ask your questions in this thread to keep track of your progress. Of course, others are also welcome to comment or ask related questions on this thread.

3 users thanked author for this post.

Saurabh@2110, Waisaka, Yash RS

[Lal]

“Anyways there is possibility that either this is problem due to language or maybe he is wrong here..”

• I do not think it is a wrong translation. Other people have told me the same. If someone has evidence to the contrary, please post a comment because this is critically important. 
• Mr. Goenka had no idea about the true meaning of sankhara.
• The “technique” depends on a wrong concept! You should be able to figure out the rest.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Saurabh@2110

[Lal]

Good analogy!

[Author]

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