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Tobias asked in his last comment: “Perhaps you could also address my distinction above: colors in external things versus only mind-made colors.”
The following is what he wrote in his previous comment:
“Let’s consider both possibilities: Colors are inherent in external things, or colors are purely mind-made.
Colors are inherent in external things:
The external thing appears somewhat more valuable if it actually possesses this quality.Colors are purely mind-made:
The external thing appears less valuable without genuine intrinsic color.In both cases, this doesn’t change the anicca/asubha nature..”
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@Tobias: I understand what you are trying to resolve as follows:
Does it really matter whether the color is really in an external object or whether it is mind-made (because it does not affect how we understand the anicca nature)?
- Is that the correct way to reframe your question?
Of course. I knew that you would choose option (ii).
I will try to explain it a bit more later today or tomorrow. I have a few mundane tasks to finish first.
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Yes. Some Commentaries have incorrect interpretations. I am seeing more of it with time.
- Some changes can occur in the physical bodies of Arahants with time. But those are not instantaneous.
- Anyway, these are non-issues for us as we try to cultivate magga phala.
“..noble disciple would never knowingly drink alcohol, and that even if alcohol was mixed with milk and put into their mouth, only the milk would go in and not the alcohol.”
- No. That is laughable.
- When attaining magga phala, it is the mind that gets purified. The physical body does not suddenly develop a filter to filter out alcohol!
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Thanks for the input, Tobias. If more people commented, I would be able to address these key issues better.
You made two comments above. Let us categorize them #1 and #2.
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#1: You agree that colors are mind-made and do not exist in sunlight or external objects. You also agree that ‘perception of color’ (our experience of color) is for our survival.
- However, you are not making the connection to Buddha’s teachings on the anicca nature.
- Modern science makes the same argument as you do. They say that the perception of color evolved over time. They say that life evolved into more complex forms, starting with primitive forms that lacked color perception. That is based on Darwin’s theory of evolution, which says life evolves to generate ‘more capabilities’ for survival.
- Buddha’s description is the opposite. Life did not evolve on Earth. The first lifeform on the newly formed Earth was humans with ‘Brahma-like subtle bodies’ (not the dense physical bodies we have today); they were also unisexual like Brahmas, no men or women. Initially, they did not need dense food either. However, with time, their minds defiled (because their samyojana or anusaya were NOT eliminated) and they gradually started engaging in immoral deeds. Their bodies changed over millions of years to become denser, and sex organs also evolved (more correctly, it is devolution, the opposite of evolution). Then, the environment also changed with vegetation appearing. That was necessary for the next step: those humans who had engaged in immoral deeds were reborn as animals. I have discussed/summarized that complex account in two posts :
- “Aggañña Sutta Discussion – Introduction” and “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27)“
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Issue #2 on the anicca nature is firmly attached to issue #1.
- One must first decide which of the two ways to explain how ‘color perception’ appeared. Did it evolve over billions of years as modern science proposes, or is it “built in differently to different living beings based on their gati“? That second process operates via Paticca Samuppada. For example, humans who have better moral gati but crave sensual pleasure are born with sense faculties to ‘enjoy life’ with colorful, tasteful… sensory experiences, while most animals do not ‘enjoy such pleasures’ because of the immoral gati that led to their births.
- As I have explained, the theory of evolution is based on one critical basis. Thoughts arise in the brain. When the brain (i.e., the physical body) dies, that lifeform ends. The ‘evolution of species’ propagates via random mutations in the DNA. Let us get that fact established first. If someone bases their argument on the ‘theory of evolution,’ then Tobias’s explanation holds. If that is the case, then one should first get rid of that ‘wrong worldview’ to follow the Buddha’s teachings. However, that is for each person to decide.
- Regarding the choice between those two possibilities, I can only provide evidence that thoughts can not arise in the brain. This is the main obstacle facing those who advocate Darwin’s theory. They cannot explain how thoughts and perception (including color perception) can arise in the brain, which is made of inert atoms/molecules. It is called the “hard problem of consciousness.” There are two other pieces of evidence against Darwin’s theory (same as the proposition that thoughts/perceptions arise in the brain), and those are rebirth accounts and Near-Death Experiences (NDE): “Near-Death Experiences (NDE): Brain Is Not the Mind.”
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We can continue the discussion, but we need to make a distinction about how to proceed.
- We cannot have two separate discussions: (i) Discuss the choice between Darwin’s theory of evolution and Buddha’s theory of Paticca Samuppada, or (ii) Discuss how to explain color perception within Paticca Samuppada.
- The basis of my posts is the Buddha’s teachings, i.e., color perception arises via Paticca Samuppada.
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The following two posts provide a thorough review of the Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118) and related key issues:
Ānāpāna – Adopting Buddha’s Worldview and Discarding ‘Mundane Views’
Ānāpānasati – Mindfulness (Sati) Based on Buddha’s Worldview
- Please feel free to ask questions or make comments to point out any issues/contradictions. My goal is to clarify issues to the best of our understanding based on the Tipitaka.
The following is another fascinating account of a child who claims to have helped build the Great Pyramid. It seems to be a genuine account of pyramid construction.
“Why should the relatively new scientific finding that “colors are created by the mind” be so relevant? People in earlier times could not have known this, yet they were still able to attain Nibbana.”
- To understand that one must know what “paramita” means. Learning/comprehending Buddha’s teachings may not happen in a single lifetime. Different people are at different stages of that. Normally, when a Buddha is born into the world, there are numerous people who have fulfilled “paramita” to higher levels and are ‘almost there’, able to complete that process. They don’t need detailed explanations. But most people today need ‘all the help they can get.’ In other words, those people were able to grasp the fact that not only sights, but all other sense faculties arise to ‘fool us’ with the ‘built-in’ kama sanna.
- Anyway, I am very much puzzled by the fact that people are not taking that scientifically proven fact seriously. Do you think it is not true? Do you think ‘colorful objects’ really exist in the world?
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“Isn’t it more important to understand the anicca and asubha nature?”
- To understand the anicca and asubha nature, one must first understand that ‘kama sanna‘ fools us (e.g., colors are not real).
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“Sanna always corresponds to the plane of existence (kamaloka, rupaloka, arupaloka), and this occurs with many nuances. This is what Sanna Vipallasa means. Thus, we are deluded by this perception and, through samyojana and gati, generate new kamma in two stages (purana/nava).”
- That is correct.
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“regarding the sentence: “…A Buddhist meditation NEVER takes a worldly object, such as the breath or a kasina object, as the meditation subject!” Do you say that the meditation object shall not be a “thing of this world” but dhammas/concepts are OK? “
- Yes. I say that “meditation object shall not be a ‘thing of this world,’ but dhamma concepts are OK.” Not only OK, but required!
- One must contemplate Dhamma concepts, and that is the way to avoid ‘kama sanna‘ from triggering thoughts of greed, anger, and ignorance.
- Focusing the mind on a ‘mundane neutral object” like the breath or a clay ball may calm the mind, but ignorant thoughts arise due to taking a ‘worldly object’ as the focus, still with the ‘kama sanna.’
- In other words, some worldly objects trigger greedy thoughts, some angry thoughts, and those neutral ones trigger ignorant thoughts.
- When one’s mind begins to comprehend Dhamma concepts, it will automatically move toward the Satipatthana Bhumi. In the days of the Buddha, those who had most of their “paramita” fulfilled were able to grasp those concepts, and their minds would enter the Satipatthana Bhumi during that discourse itself, and even attain the Sotapanna stage. They probably had exposure to concepts like the role of ‘kama sanna‘ in their previous lives. They just needed a ‘little push.’
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1. It is true that the Buddha Dhamma also belongs to the world.
- However, Buddha Dhamma includes only concepts, not ‘things’ (‘sankhata‘) that have arisen in the world.
- Sankhata (things in the world) arise via raga, dosa, moha/avijja arising in the mind.
- A mind devoid of raga, dosa, moha/avijja (the mind of an Arahant) will no longer generate sankhata and is dissociated from the world.
- This is why Nibbana is called ‘asankhata.’ See “Saṅkhatalakkhaṇa Sutta (AN 3.47).”
- Also, see “Asaṅkhata Sutta (SN 43.12)” and “Maggaṅga Sutta (SN 43.11).”
2. One’s mind is always fooled by the ‘things’ (‘sankhata‘) that have arisen in the world.
- By focusing the mind on such things, one can never get to Nibbana. That is why ‘breath meditation’ can never lead to Nibbana, even though it can provide a ‘temporary relief.’
- This is why it is critical to understand that ‘color’ does not even exist in the world. However, the mind has conjured up a way to give the perception of color.
- We would not even be able to see ‘things’ (‘sankhata‘) that have arisen in the world, if the mind did not fool us with ‘color perception.’
- If one can understand the following two posts, it would clear up many issues: “Rūpa Samudaya – A ‘Colorful World’ Is Created by the Mind” and “Human Life is Unlivable in a ‘Colorless’ World.”
- Feel free to ask further questions.
Hello VM,
I don’t know. The mind can generate various types of illusions.
Seeing things like that, or even lights or lights with various colors, has nothing to do with making progress on the Noble Path. Any visuals associated with the ‘world’ are due to the mind’s normal behavior. The Buddha taught that the mind is a magician: “Pheṇapiṇḍūpama Sutta (SN 22.95).“
P.S. One cannot see “one’s own gandhabba” if that is what you thought it could be.
Hello Damithu,
It is quite likely that you had a previous life in Sri Lanka (within the current ‘human bhava‘). As you may know, a human bhava (human existence) may last many thousands of years, with the same manomaya kāya (‘mental body’ or ‘gandhabba’) repeatedly reborn with different physical bodies.
- Thus, one can carry memories from life to life within the same human bhava.
- You are probably vaguely recalling a past life in Sri Lanka (within the current ‘human bhava‘) when you engaged in battles.
- These ‘memories’ fade as one ages. Some children can recall things in even more detail, with names of people and places in a previous life. There are many such accounts that have been studied by Ian Stevenson, a professor at the University of Virginia (now retired). Those studies are published in a book: “Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation.”
- If you are interested, I can provide more references, but you should do that after your exams.
Seng Kiat Ng has translated the “Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118)” verse by verse. That PDF file can be downloaded here: “MN 118 Mindfulness of Ānāpāna.”
- Much merits to him and his family!
- I also added that PDF file to “Ānāpānasati Sutta – Complete Overview.”
I have explained the meanings of ‘assāsa’ and ‘passāsa’ (in the context of Ānāpānassati Sutta and the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta) in the following post: “Assāsa Passāsa – What Do They Mean?“
- I had forgotten about that post. I have written so many posts that sometimes I forget that I wrote them.
The following two posts clarify why ‘pañcupādānakkhandha kāya‘ is the ‘kāya‘ discussed not only in the Ānāpānassati Sutta (MN 118) and the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22) but also in most suttās.
Kāya Can be Pañcupādānakkhandha or Physical Body
Kāya Is Pañcupādānakkhandha Kāya in Most Suttās
- Anyone can ask questions if things are not clear or if there are any contradictions.
Notes:
1. The “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22)” does not discuss kāyānupassanā. It discusses only ‘kāye kāyānupassanā’ together with ‘vedanāsu vedanānupassanā, citte cittānupassanā, and ‘dhammesu dhammānupassanā.’ Kāyānupassanā is discussed in the first stage of the Ānāpānassati Sutta (MN 118). That means focusing only on the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage as stated in the “Kammanirodha Sutta (SN 35.146)”; see below.
- Those who believe that Ānāpānassati Sutta (MN 118) describes ‘Mindfulness of Breathing,’ must first understand the ‘three-stage structure’ of that sutta discussed in “Ānāpānasati Sutta – Complete Overview” and also the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage in the “Kammanirodha Sutta (SN 35.146).”
- They should also understand that the 11 types of rūpa discussed in the “Khandha Sutta (SN 22.48)“: ‘Yaṁ kiñci, bhikkhave, rūpaṁ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṁ vā sukhumaṁ vā hīnaṁ vā paṇītaṁ vā yaṁ dūre santike vā, ayaṁ vuccati rūpakkhandho.’ Those ajjhatta and bahiddha rūpa arise in the the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage as stated in the “Kammanirodha Sutta (SN 35.146).”
- The verse ‘Iti ajjhattaṁ vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, ajjhattabahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati‘ in the “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22)” refers to comprehending the ajjhatta and bahiddha rūpa arising in the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage.
2. Note that all living beings have the ‘pañcupādānakkhandha kāya‘ unless they are Arahants.
- Thus, Brahmās also need to cultivate not only Kāyānupassanā, but also ‘kāye kāyānupassanā’ together with ‘vedanāsu vedanānupassanā, citte cittānupassanā, and ‘dhammesu dhammānupassanā.’ Those latter are the ‘cattāro satipaṭṭhānā‘ or the ‘four types of satipaṭṭhāna.’
3. Now, to the issue of ‘Do Brahmas go to charnel grounds?‘
- Of course, some subsections (1.2, 1.3, 1.4, and 1.6) of the Kāyānupassanā section cannot be practiced by Brahmas without physical bodies. However, since humans can benefit from them, those subsections cannot be omitted.
- However, Brahmas can practice subsections 1.1 and 1.5. That is all they need to practice in the Kāyānupassanā section.
- Brahmas do not need to abstain from many akusala kamma like killing, stealing, etc., either!
4. It must be kept in mind that Satipaṭṭhāna in the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22) can be cultivated by only Sotapannas or above, whether they are humans or Brahmas.
- To attain the Sotapanna stage, they must cultivate the first stage of Ānāpānassati in the Ānāpānassati Sutta (MN 118). I discussed that in “Ānāpānasati Sutta – Complete Overview.”
- Thus, Ānāpānassati Sutta (MN 118) and the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22) are not the same! The Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta discusses in detail the stages two and three in the Ānāpānassati Sutta.
5. Finally, the Sutta Central translation of the “Kāyagatāsati Sutta (MN 119)” starts with the title “Mindfulness of the Body.”
- I have not yet discussed this sutta in a post. However, this sutta describes the final stages of Satipatthana: once the mind has overcome not only the ‘nava kamma‘ stage but also kama guna, and is trying to overcome the ajjhatta and bahiddha stages early in the ‘purana kamma‘ stage.
- At the end of the sutta, it describes the benefits of cultivating Kāyagatāsati.
- At marker 42.1, it states that the practice will lead to Nibbāna: “Āsavānaṁ khayā anāsavaṁ cetovimuttiṁ paññāvimuttiṁ..”
- How can that be possible if ‘Kāya‘ in Kāyagatāsati means the ‘physical body’?
- Here, Kāyaagatā means “involving the ‘kāye kāya‘ or the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage of the pañcupādānakkhandha kāya.
6. Anyone can ask questions. Questions/criticisms/comments are welcome! We are all trying to uncover the true teachings of the Buddha.
