Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Yes. Some Commentaries have incorrect interpretations. I am seeing more of it with time.
- Some changes can occur in the physical bodies of Arahants with time. But those are not instantaneous.
- Anyway, these are non-issues for us as we try to cultivate magga phala.
“..noble disciple would never knowingly drink alcohol, and that even if alcohol was mixed with milk and put into their mouth, only the milk would go in and not the alcohol.”
- No. That is laughable.
- When attaining magga phala, it is the mind that gets purified. The physical body does not suddenly develop a filter to filter out alcohol!
1 user thanked author for this post.
Thanks for the input, Tobias. If more people commented, I would be able to address these key issues better.
You made two comments above. Let us categorize them #1 and #2.
___________
#1: You agree that colors are mind-made and do not exist in sunlight or external objects. You also agree that ‘perception of color’ (our experience of color) is for our survival.
- However, you are not making the connection to Buddha’s teachings on the anicca nature.
- Modern science makes the same argument as you do. They say that the perception of color evolved over time. They say that life evolved into more complex forms, starting with primitive forms that lacked color perception. That is based on Darwin’s theory of evolution, which says life evolves to generate ‘more capabilities’ for survival.
- Buddha’s description is the opposite. Life did not evolve on Earth. The first lifeform on the newly formed Earth was humans with ‘Brahma-like subtle bodies’ (not the dense physical bodies we have today); they were also unisexual like Brahmas, no men or women. Initially, they did not need dense food either. However, with time, their minds defiled (because their samyojana or anusaya were NOT eliminated) and they gradually started engaging in immoral deeds. Their bodies changed over millions of years to become denser, and sex organs also evolved (more correctly, it is devolution, the opposite of evolution). Then, the environment also changed with vegetation appearing. That was necessary for the next step: those humans who had engaged in immoral deeds were reborn as animals. I have discussed/summarized that complex account in two posts :
- “Aggañña Sutta Discussion – Introduction” and “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27)“
____________________
Issue #2 on the anicca nature is firmly attached to issue #1.
- One must first decide which of the two ways to explain how ‘color perception’ appeared. Did it evolve over billions of years as modern science proposes, or is it “built in differently to different living beings based on their gati“? That second process operates via Paticca Samuppada. For example, humans who have better moral gati but crave sensual pleasure are born with sense faculties to ‘enjoy life’ with colorful, tasteful… sensory experiences, while most animals do not ‘enjoy such pleasures’ because of the immoral gati that led to their births.
- As I have explained, the theory of evolution is based on one critical basis. Thoughts arise in the brain. When the brain (i.e., the physical body) dies, that lifeform ends. The ‘evolution of species’ propagates via random mutations in the DNA. Let us get that fact established first. If someone bases their argument on the ‘theory of evolution,’ then Tobias’s explanation holds. If that is the case, then one should first get rid of that ‘wrong worldview’ to follow the Buddha’s teachings. However, that is for each person to decide.
- Regarding the choice between those two possibilities, I can only provide evidence that thoughts can not arise in the brain. This is the main obstacle facing those who advocate Darwin’s theory. They cannot explain how thoughts and perception (including color perception) can arise in the brain, which is made of inert atoms/molecules. It is called the “hard problem of consciousness.” There are two other pieces of evidence against Darwin’s theory (same as the proposition that thoughts/perceptions arise in the brain), and those are rebirth accounts and Near-Death Experiences (NDE): “Near-Death Experiences (NDE): Brain Is Not the Mind.”
______________
We can continue the discussion, but we need to make a distinction about how to proceed.
- We cannot have two separate discussions: (i) Discuss the choice between Darwin’s theory of evolution and Buddha’s theory of Paticca Samuppada, or (ii) Discuss how to explain color perception within Paticca Samuppada.
- The basis of my posts is the Buddha’s teachings, i.e., color perception arises via Paticca Samuppada.
1 user thanked author for this post.
The following two posts provide a thorough review of the Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118) and related key issues:
Ānāpāna – Adopting Buddha’s Worldview and Discarding ‘Mundane Views’
Ānāpānasati – Mindfulness (Sati) Based on Buddha’s Worldview
- Please feel free to ask questions or make comments to point out any issues/contradictions. My goal is to clarify issues to the best of our understanding based on the Tipitaka.
The following is another fascinating account of a child who claims to have helped build the Great Pyramid. It seems to be a genuine account of pyramid construction.
“Why should the relatively new scientific finding that “colors are created by the mind” be so relevant? People in earlier times could not have known this, yet they were still able to attain Nibbana.”
- To understand that one must know what “paramita” means. Learning/comprehending Buddha’s teachings may not happen in a single lifetime. Different people are at different stages of that. Normally, when a Buddha is born into the world, there are numerous people who have fulfilled “paramita” to higher levels and are ‘almost there’, able to complete that process. They don’t need detailed explanations. But most people today need ‘all the help they can get.’ In other words, those people were able to grasp the fact that not only sights, but all other sense faculties arise to ‘fool us’ with the ‘built-in’ kama sanna.
- Anyway, I am very much puzzled by the fact that people are not taking that scientifically proven fact seriously. Do you think it is not true? Do you think ‘colorful objects’ really exist in the world?
________
“Isn’t it more important to understand the anicca and asubha nature?”
- To understand the anicca and asubha nature, one must first understand that ‘kama sanna‘ fools us (e.g., colors are not real).
____________
“Sanna always corresponds to the plane of existence (kamaloka, rupaloka, arupaloka), and this occurs with many nuances. This is what Sanna Vipallasa means. Thus, we are deluded by this perception and, through samyojana and gati, generate new kamma in two stages (purana/nava).”
- That is correct.
______________
“regarding the sentence: “…A Buddhist meditation NEVER takes a worldly object, such as the breath or a kasina object, as the meditation subject!” Do you say that the meditation object shall not be a “thing of this world” but dhammas/concepts are OK? “
- Yes. I say that “meditation object shall not be a ‘thing of this world,’ but dhamma concepts are OK.” Not only OK, but required!
- One must contemplate Dhamma concepts, and that is the way to avoid ‘kama sanna‘ from triggering thoughts of greed, anger, and ignorance.
- Focusing the mind on a ‘mundane neutral object” like the breath or a clay ball may calm the mind, but ignorant thoughts arise due to taking a ‘worldly object’ as the focus, still with the ‘kama sanna.’
- In other words, some worldly objects trigger greedy thoughts, some angry thoughts, and those neutral ones trigger ignorant thoughts.
- When one’s mind begins to comprehend Dhamma concepts, it will automatically move toward the Satipatthana Bhumi. In the days of the Buddha, those who had most of their “paramita” fulfilled were able to grasp those concepts, and their minds would enter the Satipatthana Bhumi during that discourse itself, and even attain the Sotapanna stage. They probably had exposure to concepts like the role of ‘kama sanna‘ in their previous lives. They just needed a ‘little push.’
1 user thanked author for this post.
1. It is true that the Buddha Dhamma also belongs to the world.
- However, Buddha Dhamma includes only concepts, not ‘things’ (‘sankhata‘) that have arisen in the world.
- Sankhata (things in the world) arise via raga, dosa, moha/avijja arising in the mind.
- A mind devoid of raga, dosa, moha/avijja (the mind of an Arahant) will no longer generate sankhata and is dissociated from the world.
- This is why Nibbana is called ‘asankhata.’ See “Saṅkhatalakkhaṇa Sutta (AN 3.47).”
- Also, see “Asaṅkhata Sutta (SN 43.12)” and “Maggaṅga Sutta (SN 43.11).”
2. One’s mind is always fooled by the ‘things’ (‘sankhata‘) that have arisen in the world.
- By focusing the mind on such things, one can never get to Nibbana. That is why ‘breath meditation’ can never lead to Nibbana, even though it can provide a ‘temporary relief.’
- This is why it is critical to understand that ‘color’ does not even exist in the world. However, the mind has conjured up a way to give the perception of color.
- We would not even be able to see ‘things’ (‘sankhata‘) that have arisen in the world, if the mind did not fool us with ‘color perception.’
- If one can understand the following two posts, it would clear up many issues: “Rūpa Samudaya – A ‘Colorful World’ Is Created by the Mind” and “Human Life is Unlivable in a ‘Colorless’ World.”
- Feel free to ask further questions.
Hello VM,
I don’t know. The mind can generate various types of illusions.
Seeing things like that, or even lights or lights with various colors, has nothing to do with making progress on the Noble Path. Any visuals associated with the ‘world’ are due to the mind’s normal behavior. The Buddha taught that the mind is a magician: “Pheṇapiṇḍūpama Sutta (SN 22.95).“
P.S. One cannot see “one’s own gandhabba” if that is what you thought it could be.
Hello Damithu,
It is quite likely that you had a previous life in Sri Lanka (within the current ‘human bhava‘). As you may know, a human bhava (human existence) may last many thousands of years, with the same manomaya kāya (‘mental body’ or ‘gandhabba’) repeatedly reborn with different physical bodies.
- Thus, one can carry memories from life to life within the same human bhava.
- You are probably vaguely recalling a past life in Sri Lanka (within the current ‘human bhava‘) when you engaged in battles.
- These ‘memories’ fade as one ages. Some children can recall things in even more detail, with names of people and places in a previous life. There are many such accounts that have been studied by Ian Stevenson, a professor at the University of Virginia (now retired). Those studies are published in a book: “Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation.”
- If you are interested, I can provide more references, but you should do that after your exams.
Seng Kiat Ng has translated the “Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118)” verse by verse. That PDF file can be downloaded here: “MN 118 Mindfulness of Ānāpāna.”
- Much merits to him and his family!
- I also added that PDF file to “Ānāpānasati Sutta – Complete Overview.”
I have explained the meanings of ‘assāsa’ and ‘passāsa’ (in the context of Ānāpānassati Sutta and the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta) in the following post: “Assāsa Passāsa – What Do They Mean?“
- I had forgotten about that post. I have written so many posts that sometimes I forget that I wrote them.
The following two posts clarify why ‘pañcupādānakkhandha kāya‘ is the ‘kāya‘ discussed not only in the Ānāpānassati Sutta (MN 118) and the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22) but also in most suttās.
Kāya Can be Pañcupādānakkhandha or Physical Body
Kāya Is Pañcupādānakkhandha Kāya in Most Suttās
- Anyone can ask questions if things are not clear or if there are any contradictions.
Notes:
1. The “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22)” does not discuss kāyānupassanā. It discusses only ‘kāye kāyānupassanā’ together with ‘vedanāsu vedanānupassanā, citte cittānupassanā, and ‘dhammesu dhammānupassanā.’ Kāyānupassanā is discussed in the first stage of the Ānāpānassati Sutta (MN 118). That means focusing only on the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage as stated in the “Kammanirodha Sutta (SN 35.146)”; see below.
- Those who believe that Ānāpānassati Sutta (MN 118) describes ‘Mindfulness of Breathing,’ must first understand the ‘three-stage structure’ of that sutta discussed in “Ānāpānasati Sutta – Complete Overview” and also the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage in the “Kammanirodha Sutta (SN 35.146).”
- They should also understand that the 11 types of rūpa discussed in the “Khandha Sutta (SN 22.48)“: ‘Yaṁ kiñci, bhikkhave, rūpaṁ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṁ vā sukhumaṁ vā hīnaṁ vā paṇītaṁ vā yaṁ dūre santike vā, ayaṁ vuccati rūpakkhandho.’ Those ajjhatta and bahiddha rūpa arise in the the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage as stated in the “Kammanirodha Sutta (SN 35.146).”
- The verse ‘Iti ajjhattaṁ vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, ajjhattabahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati‘ in the “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22)” refers to comprehending the ajjhatta and bahiddha rūpa arising in the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage.
2. Note that all living beings have the ‘pañcupādānakkhandha kāya‘ unless they are Arahants.
- Thus, Brahmās also need to cultivate not only Kāyānupassanā, but also ‘kāye kāyānupassanā’ together with ‘vedanāsu vedanānupassanā, citte cittānupassanā, and ‘dhammesu dhammānupassanā.’ Those latter are the ‘cattāro satipaṭṭhānā‘ or the ‘four types of satipaṭṭhāna.’
3. Now, to the issue of ‘Do Brahmas go to charnel grounds?‘
- Of course, some subsections (1.2, 1.3, 1.4, and 1.6) of the Kāyānupassanā section cannot be practiced by Brahmas without physical bodies. However, since humans can benefit from them, those subsections cannot be omitted.
- However, Brahmas can practice subsections 1.1 and 1.5. That is all they need to practice in the Kāyānupassanā section.
- Brahmas do not need to abstain from many akusala kamma like killing, stealing, etc., either!
4. It must be kept in mind that Satipaṭṭhāna in the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22) can be cultivated by only Sotapannas or above, whether they are humans or Brahmas.
- To attain the Sotapanna stage, they must cultivate the first stage of Ānāpānassati in the Ānāpānassati Sutta (MN 118). I discussed that in “Ānāpānasati Sutta – Complete Overview.”
- Thus, Ānāpānassati Sutta (MN 118) and the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22) are not the same! The Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta discusses in detail the stages two and three in the Ānāpānassati Sutta.
5. Finally, the Sutta Central translation of the “Kāyagatāsati Sutta (MN 119)” starts with the title “Mindfulness of the Body.”
- I have not yet discussed this sutta in a post. However, this sutta describes the final stages of Satipatthana: once the mind has overcome not only the ‘nava kamma‘ stage but also kama guna, and is trying to overcome the ajjhatta and bahiddha stages early in the ‘purana kamma‘ stage.
- At the end of the sutta, it describes the benefits of cultivating Kāyagatāsati.
- At marker 42.1, it states that the practice will lead to Nibbāna: “Āsavānaṁ khayā anāsavaṁ cetovimuttiṁ paññāvimuttiṁ..”
- How can that be possible if ‘Kāya‘ in Kāyagatāsati means the ‘physical body’?
- Here, Kāyaagatā means “involving the ‘kāye kāya‘ or the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage of the pañcupādānakkhandha kāya.
6. Anyone can ask questions. Questions/criticisms/comments are welcome! We are all trying to uncover the true teachings of the Buddha.
First, I would like to provide the necessary background.
Contextual Meaning of Pāli Words
1. In my comment on April 29, 2026, at 7:09 pm, I explained that the root “sota” is used with three different meanings in the following three contexts:
- In ‘Sotāpanna,’ ‘sota‘ refers to the Noble Path; one who starts on the Noble Path is a ‘sota āpanna‘ or a ‘sotāpanno.’ Paṭisotagāmi (‘paṭi sota gāmi’) also means to bind to the Noble Path (‘sota‘) and follow it to Nibbāna.
- ‘Bhava sota‘ refers to the ‘stream of rebirth,’ exactly the opposite of being on the Noble Path. See “Mahaddhana Sutta (SN 1.28).” The word ‘anusotagāmi’ (‘anu sota gāmi’) means to stay engaged with (“anu”) the flow of the rebirth process (‘sota’).
- Sota in ‘sota indriya‘ means the faculty of hearing, entirely different from both of the above meanings.
- The meanings are obvious in those cases, and I have not seen anyone misinterpret those.
Saṅkhāra – Many Possible Meanings
2. Let us consider the word saṅkhāra. It can have different meanings depending on context, which most translators do not see.
- First, “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra” in Paṭicca Samuppāda implies that saṅkhāra arise with ignorance as a condition, and thus can be loosely translated as ‘defiled thoughts,’ i.e., rāga, dosa, or moha/avijjā are associated with them.
- In the “Vibhaṅga Sutta (SN 12.2),” the Buddha defined saṅkhāra as “kāya saṅkhāra, vacī saṅkhāra, and citta saṅkhāra.” The same definition is in the “Cūḷavedalla Sutta (MN 44).”
Saṅkhāra That Arise in an Arahant – Cūḷavedalla Sutta
3. Let us examine the subsequent verses in the Cūḷavedalla Sutta, which provide more information. @marker 14.2 it says: “Assāsapassāsā kho, āvuso visākha, kāyasaṅkhāro, vitakkavicārā vacīsaṅkhāro, saññā ca vedanā ca cittasaṅkhāro’ti.” That means “kāya saṅkhāra = assāsapassāsā, vacī saṅkhāra = vitakka and vicāra, citta saṅkhāra = saññā and vedanā.”
- Then, @marker 15.2, it explains further: “Assāsapassāsā kho, āvuso visākha, kāyikā ete dhammā kāyappaṭibaddhā, tasmā assāsapassāsā kāyasaṅkhāro” OR “assāsapassāsā are associated with the physical body; that is why they are called kāya saṅkhāra.” Thus, here, it is reasonable to assume that ‘kāya‘ is ‘physical body’ and ‘kāya saṅkhāra‘ are ‘in and out breaths.’
- @marker 15.3, it explains vacī saṅkhāra: “Pubbe kho, āvuso visākha, vitakketvā vicāretvā pacchā vācaṁ bhindati, tasmā vitakkavicārā vacīsaṅkhāro” OR “First one thinks via vitakka and vicāra, and then speaks; therefore, vitakka and vicāra are vacī saṅkhāra.”
- @marker 15.4, it explains citta saṅkhāra: “Saññā ca vedanā ca cetasikā ete dhammā cittappaṭibaddhā, tasmā saññā ca vedanā ca cittasaṅkhāro’ti” OR “saññā and vedanā are associated with citta; therefore, saññā and vedanā are citta saṅkhāra. This is clear in Abhidhamma, where a ‘pure citta‘ (also called a ‘pabhassara citta‘) is defined to encompass/contain six cetasika: Phassa (contact), saññā (perception), vēdanā (feeling), cētanā (intention), ekaggata (one-pointedness), jivitindriya (life faculty), and manasikāra (memory). See “Pabhassara Citta, Radiant Mind, and Bhavaṅga.”
4. An Arahant in Arahant-phala samāpatti experiences this ‘pure citta‘ which is devoid of ‘kāma saññā.’ In daily life, an Arahant experiences not so pure (but still undefiled) citta with ‘altered saññā,’ i.e., ‘kāma saññā.’
- Next, the conversation in the Cūḷavedalla Sutta switched to ‘nirodha samāpatti‘ (which is the same as ‘saññā avedayita nirodha samāpatti‘ because in nirodha samāpatti, thoughts (citta) cease to arise; thus, saññā and vēdanā, as well as other components of citta, do not arise). This is where the Arahant‘s mind is fully dissociated from the world of 31 realms. This is the situation after the death of an Arahant: no more cittās arise!
- Then, @marker 17.1, the question is asked: “Saññāvedayitanirodhaṁ samāpajjantassa panāyye, bhikkhuno katame dhammā paṭhamaṁ nirujjhanti—yadi vā kāyasaṅkhāro, yadi vā vacīsaṅkhāro, yadi vā cittasaṅkhāro’ti?” OR “In what sequence do kāya saṅkhāra, vacī saṅkhāra, and citta saṅkhāra stop when an Arahant enters nirodha samāpatti?”
- The answer is: “First vacī saṅkhāra cease, then kāya saṅkhāra, and finally citta saṅkhāra stop arising.” Per the above discussion, we can say that “First conscious thoughts with vitakka and vicāra cease, then breathing stops, and finally cittās (pure awareness) also cease.”
- Therefore, the above explanation in the Cūḷavedalla Sutta is consistent with the following aspects: (i) Arahants also generate saṅkhāra; however, those are not the same saṅkhāra as those in“avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra” in Paṭicca Samuppāda. The Paṭicca Samuppāda process does not run in an Arahant‘s mind, ever. Thus, we can call ‘saṅkhāra of an Arahant‘ as ‘suddha saṅkhāra‘ or ‘undefiled saṅkhāra.’
Saṅkhāra in Paṭicca Samuppāda Start as Citta Saṅkhāra
5. Most people (especially those who have not read my recent posts) may not be aware of the following. Even for those who have, the following simplified explanation could be helpful. It could be a good idea to consult “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation” and the chart in #6 of that post.
- A Paṭicca Samuppāda (PS) cycle starts (with a new sesnory input) with the transition of the mind from the ‘kāma dhatu‘ stage to the ‘bahiddha viññāṇa‘ state in ‘kāma loka.’ Then the following steps occur before the cycle reaches the ‘taṇhā paccayā upādāna‘ step (for a ‘seeing event’): (i) bahiddha viññāṇa, (ii) ajjhatta viññāṇa (same as cakkhu viññāṇa), (iii) kāma guna arise for enticing events (if not PS does not proceed any further), (iv) samphassa-ja-vēdanā arise, (v) taṇhā arises due to samphassa-ja-vēdanā (this is the ‘vēdanā paccayā taṇhā’ step in PS), (vi) ‘taṇhā paccayā upādāna‘ step.
6. All those steps belong to the ‘initial weak kamma generation’ stage, which the Buddha called the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage. See, “Kammanirodha Sutta (SN 35.146).”
- There, the Buddha pointed out that kamma generation occurs in two steps: ‘purāna (initial, weak) kamma generation’ in the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage and ‘potent/strong kamma generation’ occurring in the subsequent ‘nava kamma‘ stage.
- Without first stopping the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage, it is impossible to stop the subsequent ‘nava kamma‘ stage.
- Ancient yogis like Ālāra Kālāma, before the Buddha, were unable to stop the ‘kamma generation process’ because they were not aware of the complete ‘kamma generation process.’ They did not know about the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage. Most people today are also not aware of it. See “Kamma Nirodha – How Does It Happen?”
7. As mentioned in #5 above, only weak ‘citta saṅkhāra‘ arise in the ‘bahiddha viññāṇa‘ stage. In that first step, only weak ‘saṅkappa‘ arise, which are the weakest form of defiled ‘saṅkhāra.’ Even these do not arise in an Arahant.
- However, the mind further defiles to the ‘ajjhatta viññāṇa‘ (same as ‘cakkhu viññāṇa‘ automatically in the very next step). As we mentioned above, ‘cakkhu viññāṇa‘ is experienced by the mind, and thus is equivalent to ‘mano viññāṇa.’
- That is important because stronger ‘sara saṅkappa‘ and ‘mano saṅkhāra‘ can arise only with ‘mano viññāṇa.’
- Thus, it is at this point that stronger ‘sara saṅkappa‘ arise (which are still weak compared to ‘mano saṅkhāra‘), if the mind further attaches via kāma guna.
- To emphasize: ‘saṅkappa‘ are a form of ‘citta saṅkhāra‘, but they are defiled, and are different from the ‘citta saṅkhāra‘ that arise in an Arahant. In a PS process, ‘saṅkappa‘ arises only in the initial step when the mind enters ‘kama bhava/loka‘; see the chart in #6 of “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.“
Potent Kamma Are Done via Mano Saṅkhāra
8. Now, let us continue with the mind contamination PS process from #5 above for the same ‘seeing event.’
- The ‘taṇhā paccayā upādāna‘ step in PS initiates the ‘nava kamma‘ stage, where potent new kamma are generated with ‘mano saṅkhāra.’ Again, it is a good idea to consult “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation” and the chart in #6 of that post.
- This leads to several more steps (within the ‘upādāna paccayā bhava‘ step in PS) in this “nava kamma” stage, the mind passes through several stages (kāmacchanda, kāma pariḷāha, kāma pariyesanā; see #13 below) where attachment becomes increasingly intense. It culminates in the accumulation of strong kamma done through the body, speech, and mind (kammaṁ karoti kāyena vācāya manasā).
- It is in this ‘nava kamma‘ stage that the mind generates potent new kamma that can lead to rebirths! (For those who are familiar with Abhidhamma, javana citta are generated only in the ‘nava kamma‘ stage). This is where one generates kāya kamma (killing, stealing, sexual misconduct) and vaci kamma (four types, including musāvada). Concomitantly, the mind generates ‘mano saṅkhāra,’ which are stronger than the ‘saṅkappa‘ and ‘sara saṅkappa‘ that arise in the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage; see #7 above.
9. Those steps in #3 through #8 are discussed in the “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.”
- Therefore, saṅkhāra that involve potent kamma are normally ‘mano saṅkhāra’ and not ‘citta saṅkhāra.’ Citta saṅkhāra further defiles into mano saṅkhāra early in the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage.
- By the time potent kamma are done, a mind has been defiled to the ‘mano‘ (same as ‘manayatana‘). As we saw, this happens early in the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage, specifically when the ‘bahiddha viññāṇa‘ turns to ‘ajjhatta viññāṇa.’ For example, when seeing a sight, this ‘ajjhatta viññāṇa‘ is the same as cakkhu viññāṇa. Also, note that it is the same mind that sees, hears, etc. The birth of a cakkhu viññāṇa or sota viññāṇa is technically the same as mano viññāṇa. They all can generate mano saṅkhāra.
Conclusions for Citta Saṅkhāra and Mano saṅkhāra
10. I hope the above description provides some clarification on the distinction between ‘citta saṅkhāra‘ and ‘mano saṅkhāra.’
- The bottom line to remember is the following: Citta saṅkhāra can be those undefiled saṅkhāra that arise in an Arahant or the ‘weak defiled saṅkhāra‘ that arise in a puthujjana‘s mind in the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage.
- ‘Mano saṅkhāra‘ implies ‘potent saṅkhāra‘ that arises in the ‘nava kamma‘ stage and can lead to future rebirths.
Relevance to the Current Discussion
11. The essential takeaway from the above discussion for this discussion thread is the following.
- ‘Citta saṅkhāra‘ that arise in an Arahant are NEVER defiled.
- ‘Citta saṅkhāra‘ or ‘mano saṅkhāra‘ that arise in a puthujjana are ALWAYS defiled, even though those ‘citta saṅkhāra‘ are less defiled than ‘mano saṅkhāra.‘
12. That is why I stated the following in the first bullet in #3 above regarding the verse @marker 14.2 in the Cūḷavedalla Sutta: “assāsapassāsā are associated with the physical body; that is why they are called kāya saṅkhāra.” Thus, here, it is reasonable to assume that ‘kāya‘ is ‘physical body’ and ‘kāya saṅkhāra‘ are ‘in and out breaths.’
- In the same way, @marker 15.3, the explanation of vacī saṅkhāra as “First one thinks via vitakka and vicāra, and then speaks; therefore, vitakka and vicāra are vacī saṅkhāra” is also consistent. Here, vitakka and vicāra will not include any defiled versions, with even a trace of rāga, dosa, or moha/avijjā.
- @marker 15.4, the explanation of citta saṅkhāra as “saññā and vedanā are associated with citta; therefore, saññā and vedanā are citta saṅkhāra” is also correct. Those are saññā and vēdanā in a pabhassara (pure) citta of an Arahant entering or coming out of nirodha samāpatti.
‘Kāya‘ for a Puthujjana Is ‘Pañcupādānakkhandha Kāya‘
13. Now, the same definitions (in the Pali verse) must be interpreted differently for the case of puthujjana.
- For a puthujjana, the Buddha ALWAYS used the word ‘kāya‘ to refer to the ‘pañcupādānakkhandha kāya‘ and NOT the physical body.
- The “Ānāpānassati Sutta (MN 118) and the “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22) are focused on ways of removing defilements from the mind. That involves stopping the arising of the ‘pañcupādānakkhandha kāya.‘
- Anyone can ask questions on #1 through #12 above. After answering any such questions, I will discuss the ‘pañcupādānakkhandha kāya.‘ After that, anyone can ask questions about it.
- It is important to clarify these fundamental concepts, so don’t hesitate to ask questions if anything is unclear. Also, there could be typing errors, too, since I am doing this in a hurry.
1. Nibbhid83 wrote on April 28, 2026, at 4:07 pm the following:
“2. The Brahma Question and the Structure of Satipaṭṭhāna You asked a revealing question: “If that is the case, how would a Brahma attain a magga phala without engaging in Kāyānupassanā?”
The answer is elementary Dhamma: By engaging in Vedanānupassanā, Cittānupassanā, or Dhammānupassanā.”
2. However, his argument also excludes Vedanānupassanā, as I pointed out in #6 above.
- To make it more precise, I just revised my specific statement you quoted in #5 of my above comment as follows: “To maintain the validity of that assumption, Nibbid83 thus declared that Kāyānupassanā in Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118) and the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22) is meant only for humans.”
3. If both Kāyānupassanā and Vedanānupassanā are excluded, there is not much left. Anyway, the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22) explicitly states that it applies to all sentient beings; see #7 above.
- By the way, I forgot to point out in the summary that Nibbid83’s proposition that ‘kāya‘ means the ‘physical body’ also excludes Cūḷavedalla Sutta (MN 44) for Brahmas.
I wrote the following question on April 28, 2026, at 11:01 am:
- Assāsapassāsā in the Cūḷavedalla Sutta (MN 44): “Assāsapassāsā kho, āvuso visākha, kāyasaṅkhāro” does not mean “In-breathing and out-breathing, friend Visākha, are bodily formations.” Assāsapassāsā there means something entirely different; it is contextual! Look at the next verse in the “Cūḷavedalla Sutta (MN 44)“; “Assāsapassāsā kho, āvuso visākha, kāyikā ete dhammā kāyappaṭibaddhā, tasmā assāsapassāsā kāyasaṅkhāro” which is translated in the link as “Breathing is physical. It’s tied up with the body, that’s why breathing is a physical process.” That English translation matches your idea of kāya as the ‘physical body.”
- Then, you (and the Sutta Central translator) again have the contradiction with the Brahmas. They don’t have physical bodies. So, are you saying that Cūḷavedalla Sutta is also restricted to humans?
4. I will address the issue of ‘Do Brahmas go to charnel grounds? ‘ later, after I explain what ‘kāya‘ is. It is only a part of Kāyānupassanā.
- Defining Assāsapassāsā as ‘breathing in and out’ is THE major issue. As I pointed out, assāsapassāsā appears only twice in the Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118) and not once in the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22).
- Yet the entire procedure is called ‘Mindfulness of Breathing’! See the English title of “Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118).” It implies that the whole process is based on the breath! P.S. It does exclude non-breathing Brahamās from practicing!
