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This is why it is necessary to understand the “purana kamma” and “nava kamma” stages.
- The “purana kamma” stage happens automatically due to unbroken samyojana. the mind goes through this stage in a split second.
- The “nava kamma” stage is where we have free will to control our thoughts, speech, and actions.
- We have to start the “cleansing process” in the “nava kamma” stage and gradually take the mind toward the “purana kamma” stage.
- At the same time, one must learn the the details of the “purana kamma” and “nava kamma” stages. That means learning about “distorted sanna“, Paticca Samuppada, etc.
- At some point in this process, one will become a Sotapanna Anugami, and the mind will get the ability to bypass the “purana kamma” stage and move into the “Satipaṭṭhāna Bhumi, ” allowing the mind to be free of the “distorted sanna.” Here, one can contemplate Dhamma concepts without being hindered by the “distorted sanna.“
- That is when one becomes a Sotapanna by breaking three of the ten samyojana.
- Once becoming a Sotapanna, one must make the effort to get into the “Satipaṭṭhāna Bhumi ” as often as possible. “Satipaṭṭhāna Bhumi ” is where one can engage in Satipaṭṭhāna effectively and start breaking the remaining seven samyojana
- Once all ten samyojana are eliminated, the “nava kamma” stage will not be initiated based on ANY sensory input.
- Those are the steps involved.
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The basic process in the chart in #1 of “Pāth to Nibbāna – Learning Dhamma to Become a Sotapanna.”
Yes. Many activities/professions fall under that category.
- However, there are many professions that are much better: For example, the health industry (doctors, nurses, researchers, etc.), education (teachers, etc.), and those professions that make life livable by providing essential services like farmers, delivery services, etc. But they also are engaged in inadvertent “immoral activities.” For example, in medical research, scientists need to perform experiments on living animals.
- Mainly bhikkhus can live a life (mostly) devoid of such complications.
Let me describe the sutta in simple terms.
Once Tālapuṭa, the dancing master, came to the Buddha and asked, “Bhante, I have heard that those who entertain people with dancing, acting, comedy, etc., are bound to be reborn in the Deva realm called pahāsā devās. What is your opinion on that?”
The Buddha told Tālapuṭa not to ask him that question.
But Tālapuṭa insisted.
The Buddha explained to Tālapuṭa that such “entertainers” are bound to be reborn in the animal realm or hell, not in a Deva realm.
You can read the English translation in the link at marker 2.5 to learn about Buddha’s explanation of why they are bound to be reborn in the animal realm or hell.
- People are already ignorant about the adverse consequence of attachment to “pleasurable activities.”
- “Entertainers” such as dancers, actors, and comedians only help perpetuate that ignorance. Also, people waste their valuable time on such things instead of learning about the true nature of the world (such as how the “distorted saññā” makes them think/believe there are pleasurable things in this world: “Fooled by Distorted Saññā (Sañjānāti) – Origin of Attachment (Taṇhā)“).
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There is no “editing capability” to correct grammar while writing in the forum. You need to use a word-processing software like Google Docs or Word, and there are free versions of them. I have corrected some of the grammar in your comment.
1. Attaching to anything not only with raga but also with dosa or moha (avijja) will eventually lead to suffering.
- The main point is that the suffering does not end until attachment to worldly things stops.
- Suffering ends when a mind fully understands the above statement. That understanding comes in four stages: Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami, and Arahant.
2. Your second question, “Does having pleasure cause pain after a period of time?” is also explained with my answer in #1 above.
- By “suffering,” the Buddha meant something more profound than physical pain.
- Each act of attachment may not lead to pain or suffering in the sense that the average human understands.
- The simplest way to look at it is as follows: Until we stop attachment to worldly things (worldly pleasures and anything in the world), Paticca Samuppada cycles run. That will perpetuate the rebirth process. Every birth, regardless of even in a Deva or Brahma realm) ends in death. Thus, suffering does not end until that attachment stops.
- The key point is that attachment cannot be stopped by willpower. It has to come through understanding how the rebirth process takes place via Paticca Samuppada.
- Paticca Samuppada stops in four stages. Those that lead to rebirths in the apayas (including the animal realm) stop when one becomes a Sotapanna. Those that lead to rebirths in the kama loka (human and Deva realms) stop when one becomes an Anagami. Rebirth in all 31 realms stops when no Paticca Samuppada process can operate, which happens at the Arahant stage.
- The key point, again, is that if there is a birth, it ends with death; that means each birth starts with guaranteed suffering!
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Amin asked:
“However, for anyone below an Arahant, due to Avijjā (ignorance) regarding the true nature of reality (Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta), a false sense of self (“I”) is added to this experience.
This creates the illusion of an “I” that is experiencing the sight.
Is this correct? If so, does that mean all our experiences are always contaminated by ignorance? In other words, do we always experience Pañcūpādānakkhandha rather than Pañcakkhandha?
In this context, how does a Sotāpanna perceive the sense of “I”?“
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The “distorted saññā” makes one think certain sensory inputs are “valuable/enjoyable,” i.e., they are of icca, sukha, and atta nature.
- That leads to the following three results: (i) one attaches to it with tanhā thinking, “this is suitable to be mine” (etaṁ mama), (ii) One generates a sense of “me/mine” or asmi māna (esohamasmi), and (iii) One generates the wrong view or “diṭṭhi” that such things are beneficial.
- A Sotapanna only removes the third one, specifically sakkāya diṭṭhi.
- The next one to be removed is tanhā, which is removed in three stages. Kāma tanhā is lessened at the Sakadāgāmi stage and removed at the Anāgāmi stage. Rupa tanha and arupa tanha are removed at the Arahant stage.
- The last one to be removed is asmi māna, which is the sense of a “me/mine.” That is removed only at the Arahant stage.
See “Etaṁ Mama, Esohamasmi, Eso Me Attā’ti – What Does It Mean?” and “Fooled by Distorted Saññā (Sañjānāti) – Origin of Attachment (Taṇhā).”
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I have been traveling the whole day and just saw Amin’s post. I have not watched the video.
- A puthujjana has never experienced pañcakkhandha (which is free of defilements). It is also called pabhassara citta.
- It is pañcaupadanakkhandha that arises for a puthujjana with any sensory input. Then they always attach to it in the “purana kamma” stage with at least avijja.
I would like to see this discussed. It is a critically important issue.
Regarding Lotus’s first question:
“1. Bahiddha Viññāṇa corresponds to Rūpa Paṭisaṁvedī and marks the starting phase of Purāna Kamma. I understand that even for an Arahant, Rūpa Paṭisaṁvedī automatically occurs when experiencing a visual object through distorted Kāma Saññā.
However, in the everyday mind of an Arahant or Anāgāmi, which remains in Kāma Dhātu, when sensory input arises, does their mind still proceed to the first stage of contamination, which is the Bahiddha Viññāṇa state, or does it not?”
- I thought I explained in the revised post clearly that the mind of an Arahant or Anāgāmi does not proceed to the bahiddha viññāṇa.
I just posted the revised version of “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.”
- Please feel free to ask questions. These are critical issues to understand.
- Also, I may have made some mistakes in old posts on the “distorted saññā” concept. Please point them out in this thread. This issue is deep enough. I will do whatever it takes to clarify “sticky points” and to get the ideas across.
- Buddha’s teachings are like the deep ocean. It gets more and more difficult as one goes deeper, but the “big picture” becomes much clearer as one goes deeper.
Regarding the comment by Buddhas_disciple above and specifically the following comment:
“What may have Actually Happened?
- The Arahant’s past kamma had ripened, leading to death in that manner.
- The cow was just a medium, not the root cause of the Arahant’s death.
- Since animals lack the ability to consciously create good or bad moral kamma, they cannot commit anantariya kamma.”
Yes. That could be valid.
Please see the following thread by Jittananto: “Bāhiya, Pukkusāti, Tambadathika – All Killed by the Same Cow“
- Since a cow could not have planned and killed all three of them, it is likely that the “cow was just a medium.”
1. Yes. Christian’s comment above answers Lotus’s second question. We can clarify it further with the following chart:
- Ancient yogis were able to cultivate all the jhanas and arupa samapatti. They realized the dangers of sensual pleasures (kama raga) and avoided most of the dasa akusala. In other words, they did the best they could within the “nava kamma” stage. Even though they were able to temporarily suppress kama raga to attain those jhanas and arupa samapattis, they could not figure out (did not know) how to eliminate it. That can be done only by comprehending the “whole picture” including the “purana kamma” stage.
- They were not aware of the “purana kamma” stage. The initial attachment takes place in the “purana kamma” stage. Until that is stopped, no one can break the sansaric bonds (samyojana). Furthermore, samyojana can be broken/eliminated ONLY by comprehending this complete “kamma accumulation process” in both stages! “Distorted saññā” plays a critical role here.
- We discussed the above chart and its implications in “Sotapanna Stage from Kāma Loka.”
- In fact, one “sees the Dhamma with wisdom” i.e., becomes a “sanditthiko” by “seeing with wisdom” how that initial attachment occurs automatically in the “purana kamma” stage. See “Sandiṭṭhiko – What Does It Mean?.”
2. I realized today that I had made some mistakes in the post “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.”
- That may have contributed to the first question raised by Lotus above.
- I will rewrite that post within the next two days.
- Until then, please continue discussing the above issue if anyone has questions or comments.
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Good questions.
- I see that I made a mistake in one of the early posts, which could have contributed some confusion. After revising the old post and the chart in that post, I will post a response.
- My apologies for the delayed response. It has been a busy day.
P.S. I think the revisions are important enough that I should publish it as a rewritten post tomorrow or the day after. I need to revise a chart or two as well. This material is complex enough that I must be careful to get it right.
OK. That is enough for this discussion.
- If there are unresolved Dhamma issues, anyone can ask questions.
- But please stop dragging personalities/institutions into the discussion.
I also disagree with the following statements: “as long as you have not renounced the lay life, you are not in a good position to criticize them” AND ““If one is really serious about attaining Nibbāna as quickly as possible one should take the robe immediately”
We can discuss the above statements (and the following statements I make).
- Becoming a bhikkhu is a personal decision. But bhikkhus represent the Buddha and we should respect them.
- “Sangha” does not mean bhikkhus, but Noble Persons with magga phala. Thus, some bhikkhus and some lay people belong to “Sangha.” The best example of a bhikkhu not belonging to Sangha is Devadatta. The majority of bhikkhus today do not belong to the “Sangha” category. “Bhikkhu Sangha” is the category of Noble Persons who are bhikkhus.
- Anyone should be able to criticize anyone else’s statements, but without being disrespectful. We can ask questions about a concept without talking about a person. If I write something wrong, please feel free to point it out. Anyone can make mistakes. Only a Buddha would not make a mistake.
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“I’m not quite sure where I read this..”
“Now, if micca ditthi is a type of mano kamma and mano kamma arises from the first two javana citta in a citta vithi, wouldn’t this be a contradiction?”
- There is no contradiction.
- Mano kamma involves thoughts that arise automatically due to one’s unbroken samyojana. That is why those are the first javana cittas to arise. Thus, they are relatively weak.
- Each javana citta is strengthened by the previous one. Like a runner starting slowly, speeding up, and then slowing down at the end, javana cittas become weaker after the fifth. Thus, sixth and seventh javana cittas are progressively weaker.
- Thus, vaci and kaya abhisankhara are mostly associated with the javana citta #3 through #5 and weaken in #6 and #7.
- Kammic energy created in the first javana citta can bring vipaka in this life only. But #2 through #6 can bring vipaka in future lives, and #7 can bring vipaka only in the next life.
- That means javana citta #2 is strong enough to bring vipaka in future lives. But it is NOT ENOUGH to bring a rebirth (called “janaka kamma.”) Thus, kammic energy generated in javana citta #2 with mano sankhara can ONLY bring vipaka DURING A LIFE in future lives, i.e., it cannot give rise to a rebirth.
I explained that in a previous comment in the forum: “Reply To: Post on “Saṅkhāra – An Introduction”
P.S. Citta vithi explained in “Citta Vithi – Processing of Sense Inputs.”
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Revised post: “Assāsa Passāsa – What Do They Mean?“
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This discussion is getting too personal. Our goal is to learn Dhamma. It is better not to put down or promote teachers. Please stop doing either. Different people (including teachers) have different preferences/perspectives and are at varying levels of understanding. Only a Buddha can see anyone else’s level of understanding; we can only make guesses.
- If you have a question you would like to discuss, you can post it. If you can answer or provide helpful information on others’ questions, please do so, too. We all would appreciate that. Let us discuss Dhamma concepts, not teachers.
- If you had a specific experience or issue with a teacher, please don’t post names. If a problem is unresolved, you can ask the question without posting the source. Our goal is to learn Dhamma.
- I encourage everyone to follow teachers/instructors whom they like. There are many teachers out there. I have listed some (not a complete list) in “Parinibbāna of Waharaka Thēro.” You should learn from whoever is providing helpful information. It is a good idea to listen to/read from various teachers. You will automatically spend more time with your preferred teachers because you learn more from them.
- It is better not to be attached to a specific teacher other than the Buddha.
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