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I think the issue here is the interpretation of paṭibhāgo.
- It means the counterpart, but does not imply “supplement” (it means the opposite or in the other direction). It also does not mean the counterpart must be “the exact same amount.”
Zapper asked, “Does that mean that even an arahant feels pain, and if so, is it only from the body sense organ?”
1. As Christian pointed out, there are many accounts in the Tipitaka about Arahants feeling bodily pain. Even the Buddha felt pain when a stone injured his foot (when Devadatta tried to take his life). He also felt bodily aches. In the final days, he had stomach pains.
- So, yes. There is plenty of evidence that Arahants feel “bodily pain.” In the same way, they can feel “bodily pleasures” like resting on a soft bed compared to sleeping on the ground.
2. The other types of “vedanā” are associated with “saññā” built into the physical body.
- For example, the sweet taste of sugar is a different type of “vedanā” are associated with “saññā” built into the physical body. It does not come through the nerves in the physical body (as in #1), but come through the tongue (taste).
- In reality, that “saññā” of sweetness in sugar is not real in an absolute sense. If it were, all living beings would taste sugar to be sweet. But a cow or a tiger would not eat sugar. In the same way, cows like to eat grass, but humans or tigers do not. That is why it is called “distorted saññā.”
- A puthujjana attaches to the taste of sugar. But since an Arahant has understood how the human bodies are built to provide a “sweet taste” (but the body of a tiger or cow is not), their minds do not go through the “automatic attachment” at the purāna kamma stage (at the very beginning of the tasting sugar).
- That is the critical point I tried to point out (as in your above quote: “and in the “Saññā Nidānā hi Papañca Saṅkhā – Immoral Thoughts Based on ‘Distorted Saññā’ post, you said “The key point is that their minds do not even go through the purāna kamma stage”).
3. Such “distorted saññā” can lead to a feeling of joy (or revulsion) with other senses, too. For example, we smell rotten meat to be repulsive, but a pig likes that smell.
- An Arahant would smell rotten meat as a “bad smell,” but is not depressed. They fully understand that smell is “made up.”
- The fact that Arahants also experience those “made-up emotions” (“agreeable and disagreeable”) associated with the sense faculties is expressed in the “Nibbānadhātu Sutta (Iti 44)“: “Their five sense faculties still remain. So long as their senses have not gone they continue to experience the agreeable and disagreeable, to feel pleasure and pain.”
- I have discussed that sutta in several posts: “Search Results for: Nibbānadhātu.” You can read them to gain further understanding of this critical point.
4. The difficulty lies in understanding how our bodies (and the external world) arise to provide that “distorted saññā.“
- It is fully explained via Paṭicca Samuppāda. The first few posts in the “Worldview of the Buddha” section explain that.
1. There are two types of asura, one being “asura deva” (who go into wars with Tavatimsa Devās) and the other “vipnipātika asura,” who belong to the apāyās.
- “Vipnipātika” means apāyās, or the four lowest realms. All realms in the apāyās can be called “vipnipātika.” Thus, “vipnipātika asura” is a category within the apāyās; they are born there because they were lazy as humans and cultivated asura saṅkhāra (for example, those who don’t like to work and depend on welfare even if they can work). That leads to asura viññāna and thus gives rise to an asura existence belonging to the apāyās. I have seen in the Commentaries that they can be born to be trapped inside mountains; they cannot move. However, I have not seen such descriptions in the suttās.
- See #13 of “Sīla, Samādhi, Paññā to Paññā, Sīla, Samādhi.”
2. Tavatimsa Devās are sometimes called “sura Devās” in comparison to “asura Devās“, and the war between the two sides is sometimes called the “sura asura war”.
- “Sura”, of course, is the opposite of “asura“: clever and “quick thinking”.
3. The “Gati Sutta (AN 9.68)” lists five main categories: hell (niraya), the animal realm (tiracchāna), the hungry ghost realm (peta), humans (manussa), and Deva.
- Of course, there are numerous subcategories within each of the five main categories.
- That is evident among animals; some are vicious, and others are harmless. Even among humans, there is a broad spectrum of gati (i.e., character/habits); see, for example, “The Law of Attraction, Habits, Character (Gati), and Cravings (Āsavas)“ and “9. Key to Ānāpānasati – How to Change Habits and Character (Gati).”
- Therefore, “vipnipātika asura” and “asura Deva” seem to be two minor categories within the apāyās and Deva realms.
There are two types of asurās. One is a type of Deva, and the other belongs to the apāyās.
- I will take a look at the suttās you quoted and make some comments later.
This is a subtle point. Those vedanā that arise in an Arahant are a manifestation of “distorted saññā.”
- An Arahant does not experience a “pure mind” while living daily life. His/her physical body formed at birth, before attaining Arahanthood. The “distorted saññā” (note that it is not defiled, i.e., does not have rāga, dosa, or moha) arises in anyone born with a physical body.
- However, when Arahants are in “Arahant-phala samāpatti” (where they experience the pure mind realized at the Arahant-phala moment), they do not experience the “distorted saññā.” While in that samāpatti, they do not experience vedanā associated with the “distorted saññā.”
- See #7 and #8 of “Saññā Nidānā hi Papañca Saṅkhā – Immoral Thoughts Based on ‘Distorted Saññā’” for details.
It could be: “Yoniso Manasikāra and Paṭicca Samuppāda” or “Citta and Cetasika – How Viññāṇa (Consciousness) Arises.”
- You can use the “Search” box on the top right to locate all posts related to “manasikara” by typing that word.
The post cubibobi referred to is: “The Infinity Problem in Buddhism.”
- I just revised it to add new links.
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Yes, that is correct in a way.
- Even saddhā (faith) is based on understanding. Therefore, it is also related to paññā. One must be able to comprehend the teachings of the Buddha.
- Both dhammānusāri and saddhānusāri must cultivate all five indriya. There is no need to specifically cultivate each separately. All five indriya will grow as one cultivates the path.
- The main task is to learn (janato) and contemplate (passato) the correct teachings until the concepts sink into the mind: ““Jānato Passato” and Ājāniya – Critical Words to Remember.”
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I listened to the first link, a discourse by Waharaka Thero. The following is the relevant summary.
1. There are three types of Buddhās: (i) Some cultivate the path to Buddhahood with “wisdom” (paññā). They are “පඥ්ඥා අධික.” (ii) Some have viriya (effort) predominant. They are “විරිය අධික.” (iii) Others have saddhā (faith) indriya predominant. They are “සද්ධා අධික.”
2. We all have five indriya or faculties: saddhā, viriya, sati, samādhi, paññā.
- Even when puthujjanas cultivates the Noble Path, they belong to two groups: Those who have paññā indriya dominant (dhammānusāri) and those who have the saddhā indriya dominant (saddhānusāri).
- See #2 of “Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās.”
3. Even though each Bodhisatta may have one indriya predominant, when attaining Buddhahood, they all reach the highest levels of all five indriya at Buddhahood.
- That is why all the Buddhas are equal.
- In the same way, even though puthujjanas start on the Noble Path as dhammānusāri or saddhānusāri, at the Arahant stage, they all become equal.
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I will listen to the videos and make some comments later.
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Yes. I have listened to a discourse by Waharaka Thero in which it is mentioned that some with niyata miccha ditthi (well-established wrong views) will be reborn in “specially harsh hells” outside the Solar system.
- As I remember, those will be relatively few, and most will be in the Abhassara realm.
- If we can locate that original audio from Waharaka Thero, we can look into it.
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A detailed analysis of Māluṅkyaputta Sutta and the Bahiya Sutta in “‘Diṭṭhe Diṭṭhamattaṁ Bhavissati’ – Connection to Saññā.”
Here is another way to understand the “purāna kamma” and “nava kamma” stages.
- Free will can operate only in the “nava kamma” stage. In contrast, we don’t have free will in the “purāna kamma” stage.
- This is discussed in “Free Will in Buddhism – Connection to Sankhāra.”
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My apologies! I am not sure how I missed it.
- If there is no response, please don’t hesitate to ask again.
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1. We have six sense faculties. Those for an Arahant are called “six indriya.” For a puthujjana (average human), they are used with rāga, dosa, or moha in the mind, and they are called “the six āyatana.”
- The six āyatana are usually called cakkhu, sota, ghana, jivhā, kāya, and mano without explicitly referring to them as cakkhu āyatana, mana āyatana, etc.
- For an Arahant, they are cakkhu indirya, mana indriya, etc.
2. Even though a sense event may come through one of the five physical senses, they are always registered in the mind, and the response is via mana āyatana (manāyatana).
- Thus, the responses (saṅkhāra) to any sense input in both purana and nava kamma stages arise in manāyatana. Hence, they are all ‘mano saṅkhāra.’
- However, those mano saṅkhāra in the “purana kamma” stage (without conscious thinking) are very weak, compared to those in the “nava kamma” stage. They are called “saṅkappa.”
- In contrast, those mano saṅkhāra that arise in the “nava kamma” stage, arise in javana citta (consciously), are strong.
3. So, the answer to the question: “Does mano saṅkhāra operate in both the purāṇa kamma and nava kamma stages?” is yes. But they have different strengths.
- Only those in the “nava kamma” stage can bring vipāka in future lives.
- Saṅkappa (weak mano saṅkhāra in the “purana kamma” stage) cannot bring vipāka in future lives.
Yes. It appears that you need one-to-one sessions with a teacher. I provided my input in response to your earlier comment in a different thread. As I pointed out, many people equate Nibbana to “cease existing” and thus become fearful of following the Noble Path. The solution is to fully understand that Nibbana does not mean the end of an “existing soul-type entity.” I don’t think discussing that in detail is possible in this forum.
- If you like, you can let us know the outcome of the meeting; this is a personal issue, so we understand if you don’t. I hope it will help you get on track.
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