[Lal]

Siebe said: “.When i decide to stand on one leg, and as a result feel pain, is this pain due to a bad kamma-beeja ripening, or has it just a physiological cause.”

I have explained in detail why the decision to stand on a leg is NOT a kamma vipaka. Please read above and let me know the points that you don’t agree with.

Let me try another way to explain this, since this is important to understand.
This is exactly what one needs to do in Satipatthana. In this particular case of moving a body part it is Kāyānupassanā. When a thought comes to the mind to stand on one leg, one needs to think about the consequences of that action. If it is a beneficial act then one needs to do it; if it is a detrimental act one should not (as I explained in detail above).

This is no different than deciding to hit someone. When such a thought comes to the mind, one needs to realize that it is a bad bodily action.

Many people tend to focus on lobha and dosa as immoral. But moha is immoral too. The decision to carry out an act that one KNOWS will lead to suffering for oneself or others is immoral.
See the post on Kāyānupassanā for more details:
Maha Satipatthana Sutta

P.S. As Akvan said, it is possible that the thought to stand on one leg MAY come to the mind as a kamma vipaka. But the ultimate decision is up to the individual. Otherwise, working of kamma will be deterministic and no one will be able to attain Nibbana.

[Lal]

Yes. I also agree with all three comments by Siebe, Vince, and Akvan above.

It is indeed not possible for any living being, including an Arahant, to fully comprehend the wisdom and capabilities of a Buddha. I discuss this a bit at:
Buddha Dhamma: Non-Perceivability and Self-Consistency

Even though an Arahant attains the same Nibbana as a Buddha, the capabilities of a Buddha can be matched only by another Buddha.

Siebe said: “We now tend to belief, based on craving and avijja and identifying with khandha’s, that we are ‘a human’, an “I”, a subject, a living being, a person, a man or woman, but that is only due to deeply ingrained habits.”

That is the essence of Buddha Dhamma. When one realizes that it is not fruitful (and also dangerous) to crave for things in this world, one’s various gathi will slowly dissipate. At the end, at Arahanthood, there will be no “gathi” left, except for harmless habits devoid of defilements. The dangers seen at the Anagami stage, for example, cannot even be fathomed at the Sotapanna stage (dangers of kama raga).

[Lal]

Nothing happens without a cause. In modern science, each event can be attributed to a cause (more likely many causes). One can believe whatever one wants, but there are laws of nature.

Kamma is action by the mind, speech, and body done with intention (based on lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha).

We do millions of such kamma a day, and most are not strong. But each one has consequences. Just like every action has a reaction in physics, each kamma has a consequence.
So, it is impossible to figure out how trillions of past kamma lead us to experience many types of sense inputs a day.

Only when we experience bodily pain (dukha) or bodily pleasure (sukha), those are due to strong past kamma. In other cases, some sense inputs are brought in and any suffering (or pleasure) that we experience is mind-made (somanassa/domanassa), also called “samphassa ja vedana”. Also see the topic:
Could bodily pain be due causes other than kamma vipaka?

All this is hard to explain in a post. As one learns Abhidhamma, one may be able to figure out. However, it is not necessary to fully grasp this complex issue. But it is not difficult to see the truth of the framework, based on its validity. It is the same as believing things that physicists have stated, even though one may not have studied physics and thus may not be able to comprehend the finer details. Of course, it is good to understand as mush as one can.
Just as in science, the complex theory of Abhidhamma can be proven wrong only if serious inconsistencies can be pointed out. That is how scientists throw away “bad theories” that cannot explain a new observation, and build faith in “good theories” as long as they are consistent with each new observations.

[Lal]

Tobias G said: “Can someone please send the link to Abhidhamma with the statement about “bodily pain is always due to kamma vipaka”? Or is there no English translation?”.

The “conventional English source” for Abhidhamma that I normally consult is the book, “A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma”, by Bhikkhu Bodhi (2000), which I will call Ref. 1 below. See:
Abhidhamma – Introduction” for information.

In Ref. 1, p. 52, out of the 54 types of citta associated with the kamal loka, 1 is for (bodily) pleasure and 1 is for (bodily) pain. There are 18 with joy (somanassa), 2 with displeasure (domanassa), and 32 with neutral (equanimity). The latter 20 types are what I have discussed as “samphassa ja vedana”.

Those 5 types of vedana are discussed briefly on p. 116 of Ref. 1.
BI am sure similar descriptions are available in the “free eBook” by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon, mentioned in the above post.

Siebe said, “But is this the case when one decides to stand on one leg? Is that an immoral decision, is it kammically evil or black deed? Is it akusala? Maybe in the sense of ‘not-skillful’ but i would not say in the sense of immoral or evil.”

Just to stand on one leg is a foolish act, if it is done without any other possible effect in mind. Everything does not need to tied up to moral/immoral. Deciding to cross a busy street without looking is not a moral/immoral; it is just foolish. Actions have consequences, and one does need to consult suttas to figure out.

Siebe said, “Maybe one decides to stand on one leg to raise money for people with cancer.The motives are very good but one suffers immense pains.”

Those are two kamma (two intentions): the action of standing up on one leg (with that intention) WILL lead to pain no matter what the other intention is. Here, the other intention is to raise money and that is a good kamma (done by the mind or a mano sankhara), and may bring good benefits in the furture. The first was a kaya sankhara (to move and keep the leg up).

Just because one BELIEVES one has good intention does not necessarily mean it will bring good vipaka. Suicide bombers think they are doing a good deed by killing others and that it will bring good results for themselves and their families, but that is just being foolish.

People do foolish actions believing that they will bring good results in the future. These are due to micca ditthi or wrong views.
It does not matter who is doing the action. The Bodhisatva (not the Buddha) subjected his body to harsh punishments and had to face the consequences later in the life (some of the ailments were due to those hardships that the body went through).

This is why panna (wisdom) is critical. We don’t need to consult suttas for everything. Somethings we can figure out by ourselves after we learn the basics from the suttas. The fact the standing on a leg leads to pain is a no brainer. If there is no other intention (like doing it for charity), then it is just a foolish act. The goal of Buddha Dhamma is to avoid pain as much as possible.

There is an easy rule given by the Buddha to figure out what actions are good or bad:
Do it:
1.If it is beneficial to oneself. 2. If it is beneficial to others.
Don’t do it:
3. If it is detrimental to oneself 4. If it is detrimental to others.
If a given action involves 1 or 2 AND 3 or 4, then both good and bad vipaka can materialize. One has to figure out whether the benefits outweigh the bad consequences.

In the last example Siebe gave: there will be bad consequences of jumping into the fire (burning). Good consequences in future for saving a child. Laws of kamma can be complex. But these are simple ones that we can figure out easily.

In all these examples, the decision to act is NOT a kamma vipaka. The decision (to stand on a leg or to jump into the fire) is made by the individual on his/her own volition. So, most of this discussion is outside the topic.

We also need to remember that it is impossible to avoid (inadvertently) doing things that are harmful to others. When we cook or even boil water to make a tea, millions of lifeforms are destroyed (by the way, those do not bring bad vipaka, because they are not intentional). They can be avoided only by getting to Parinibbana. In the meantime, we just need to be mindful and do the best we can. That is Satipatthana.

[Lal]

Yes, D. This forum topic is a good. Thanks for starting it.

I am familiar with this particular meditation technique through his book, even though I have not attended one.

Based on what I have read, one gets to samatha with breath meditation and then is supposed to do vipassana meditation.

1. Could you elaborate on what is involved in vipassana? What does one meditate on during the vipassana?

2. Breath meditation is not the anapana meditation taught by the Buddha:
Is Ānāpānasati Breath Meditation?
Has anyone questioned the instructors of this issue? Any others who have attended can comment too. I am just curious.

Kind Regards, Lal

[Lal]

It is important to realize that the issue here is only bodily suffering (or pleasure). Abhidhamma DOES NOT say mental suffering (or pleasure) is due to past kamma vipaka.

In Abhidhamma, all sense inputs via the other five sense inputs (other than physical body) are initially felt as upekkha (neutral) vedana. Only the bodily sense inputs could lead to dukha vedana (getting injured, headaches, cancer, etc) or sukha vedana (good massage, lying on a comfortable bed, etc).

When we generate joy upon seeing something that we like, for example, it comes in as a neutral vedana. We generate joy via “samphassa ja vedana” based on our gathi. A good example is seeing a well-known politician. Some people generate good feelings and others may generate bad feelings; but it is the same person they were all looking at. One may need to contemplate on this and let the idea sink in. It is an important point. It holds true for any sense input other than the bodily sense inputs.

I don’t think anyone stated otherwise above, but I just wanted to make it clear.

I still need to give this some more thought when I get get back. But one question from Siebe can be answered.

Siebe said, “. When one, for example, decides to stand on one leg for a day, one will surely feel very painful feelings.”

That is definitely a kamma vipaka. It is NOT a vipaka of a kamma done in the past, but is due to a vipaka of a kamma done AT THAT TIME. One would not feel such pain, unless one DECIDED to stand on one leg. That decision by oneself and the follow-up action led to the dukha vedana.

If one decides shoot oneself, that is the same. One DECIDED to do that. Kamma is action done with intention. Some kammas bring immediate vipaka, as in those two cases.

Another type of bodily kamma vipaka that can be DIRECTLY and EXCLUSIVELY attributed to PAST kamma arise due to anantariya kamma, like killing a parent, injuring a Buddha, etc. Vipaka due to anantariya kamma WILL be realized without exception. Those will be bodily pain (dukha vedana).

Some Brahmins of the time of the Buddha used to attribute all vedana to kamma vipaka. That is what the Buddha denied.

So, we have narrowed down the scope of what was said in those suttas (and Milindapanha) that Siebe referred to. We still need to address those specific situations related to bodily sensations.

[Lal]

Lobha, dosa, moha are the deepest levels of greed, hate, and ignorance. As one follows the Path, they are gradually reduced; see:
Lobha,Dosa, Moha versus Raga, Patigha, Avijja

A clear break to raga, patigha, avijja occurs at the Sotapanna stage. One of the three types of raga (kama raga) and patigha are reduced at the Sakadagami stage, and removed at the Anagami stage. The other two types of raga (bhava and vibhava raga) and avijja completely removed at the Arahant stage.
When one acts without lobha, dosa, moha, one is acting with alobha, adosa, amoha. Even the most immoral person may act with alobha, adosa, amoha sometimes. As one follows the Path one will act with less and less moha, dosa, moha.

Just like lobha, dosa, moha have various levels, alobha, adosa, amoha also have different levels. For example, as dosa decreases from mere adosa, metta, karuna, mudita increase. As lobha decreases from mere alobha, one’s tendency to give (dana) and help out others increases. One will also start acting with amoha more and more, and as one learns Dhamma, one’s panna (wisdom) will grow. Of course, amoha is greatly reduced when one removes ten types of mica ditthi, and panna will start growing drastically when one starts comprehending Tilakkhana.

It is important to realize that acting with panna (wisdom) is much more than acting with amoha. Amoha just means acting without moha (i.e., acting with amoha). One has to learn Dhamma to act with panna. And panna grows exponentially when one starts comprehending Tilakkhana.

[Lal]

Thanks, Siebe, for another excellent topic. I am making this a new topic in the Sutta Interpretations forum, since it requires study of suttas.

However, as I mentioned in the side panel, please do not pose questions just to me in the future.

Siebe is correct in saying that “Abhidhamma seems to analyse that bodily pain is Always kamma vipaka”.

So, the question is: Are some suttas saying that there could be causes other than kamma vipaka that lead to bodily pain?

I have not studied those suttas that Siebe mentions. So, it would be good to see whether the suttas SN36.21, AN5.104 and AN10.60, as well as Milindpanha (which is attributed to Nagasena Thero who lived about 200 years after the Buddha), say that there could be other causes.

In Buddha Dhamma anything in this world happens due to one or more causes. But for those causes to bring effects, suitable conditions must be present. This is discussed in the section “Patthana Dhamma”.

So, conditions play a key role in the Principle of Cause and Effect in Buddha Dhamma, which is Paticca Samuppada. I wonder whether those “other possible causes” are really conditions in this particular case. It is also possible that there is a totally different explanation.

Please do not hesitate to comment. I am still on travel and will be back early next week.

[Lal]

MN72 describes that the Buddha (or an Arahant) has no pancaupadanakkhandha, i.e., no attachment to rupa, vedana, etc. And that the nature of Nibbana is not possible to fathom in worldly terms.
This is why sunnata is not “emptiness” in the sense of “emptiness in worldly terms”. It is only empty of raga, dosa, moha (ragakkhayo Nibbanam, dosakkhayo Nibbanam, mohakkhayo Nibbanam).

Until Parinibbana, Buddha (or an Arahant) would have a pancakkhandha, but no pancaupadanakkhandha. Both are absent after Parinibbana. But of course, nama gotta (records) of those pancakkhandha remain forever. That is why the Buddha was able to describe the lives of previous Buddhas.

As was discussed in the other topic, saupadisesa Nibbana (elimination of direct mental suffering) is experienced during the life itself. Elimination of all suffering is at anupadisesa Nibbana or Parinibbana.

[Lal]

Johnny Lim said: You mentioned…

” Nibbana is detaching from this world. So, all three entities of citta, cetasika, and rupa cease to exist. There is no mind without citta and cetasika. So, when the mind becomes free of asavas, the mind itself cease to exist.”

From Paticca Samuppada point of view, there cannot be consciousness without namarupa and vice versa, right?

I should have said, “Parinibbana is detaching from this world…”
That statement does not hold for saupadisesa Nibbana. That should be clear from the above discussion.

Siebe said: “..So, can saupadisesa Nibbana not be understood as the ultimate peaceful nature of the mind freed from all adventitious defilements? ..”

In this life one suffers through two types of vedana:
1. Bodily sukha/dukha vedana are due to kamma vipaka and originate in the physical body.
2. Mental somanassa/domanassa vedana or “samphassa ja vedana” are felt directly by the mind; they are mind made due to defilements.

At saupadisesa Nibbana, only “samphassa ja vedana” are stopped. Even the Buddha felt the vedana of the first type (getting injured, backaches, etc). Both kinds are stopped at anupadisesa Nibbana or Parinibbana.

Vēdanā (Feelings) Arise in Two Ways

These are key points that needs to be deeply contemplated on. Just reading through is not enough. I think this thread highlighted many key questions of Nibbana.

Now it should also be clear how lobha, dosa, moha can lead to mental distress (tāpa or peleema or incessant distress) and how the mind cools down (and niramisa sukha arises) when those are gradually stopped.
It is a step-by-step process described in the “Living Dhamma” section, as I keep pointing out. This also cleanses the mind and makes it easier to understand deeper concepts. It is not possible to really grasp the concept of Nibbana just by reading about it (even though having the mechanism clarified helps).
The key phrase “ātāpī sampajānō, satimā vineyya lōke abhijjhā dōmanassam..”in the Satpatthana Sutta is all about this “tāpa” or “heat” or “fire” in the mind that needs to be cooled down:
Satipatthāna Sutta – Structure

[Lal]

Hi Siebe,

Until Parinibbana, an Arahant lives like any other human, but without generating abhisankhara. From the time the Arahanthood is attained to the time of Parinibbana, it is called “saupadisesa Nibbana”, where all asavas and avijja are removed, but thoughts are generated.

Thoughts cease only when an Arahant attains Parinibbana or anupadisesa Nibbana. Parinibbana means “Nibbana is complete”.

Some discussion about this at:
Nirödha and Vaya – Two Different Concepts

[Lal]

Hi Siebe,
There is no mind (as defined in this world) in Nibbana; please see my first response above:

” Nibbana is detaching from this world. So, all three entities of citta, cetasika, and rupa cease to exist. There is no mind without citta and cetasika. So, when the mind becomes free of asavas, the mind itself cease to exist.”

[Lal]

Siebe said:“Nibbana is often described in a negative way. As somethings that are not present anymore, such as asava’s or craving or avijja.”

I think you meant to say, “Nibbana is often described as an absence of something. As somethings that are not present anymore, such as asava’s or craving or avijja.
That is correct. Nibbana is reached via getting rid of asvas and avijja, which is equivalent to getting rid of greed (lobha), hate (dosa), and avijja (not knowing about the real nature).

Siebe said:“Or must Nibbana also been seen as the summit of the presence of relative (conditioned) qualities like mindfulness, concentration, metta, mudita etc.”
Cultivating qualities like mindfulness, concentration, metta, mudita etc. are part of that process.

In other words, the way to Nibbana is the Noble Eightfold Path. One learns about the true nature of the world (Dhamma including Tilakkhana) and get to to Samma Ditthi. Then one starts thinking along those lines and cultivates Samma Sankappa, speaks accordingly and cultivates Samma Vaca, etc. See:
How to Cultivate the Noble Eightfold Path starting with Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta

Siebe said: “..still i do not understand why Nibbana is not of this world.”
So, from the above, it is clear that Nibbana is attained via getting rid of everything (attachment to everything) in this world, because that leads to suffering. Thus it is a tautology: Nibbana DOES MEAN completely dissociating from this world (even though that sounds harsh, that is the only way to permanently escape from suffering).

But it is not easy to comprehend this fully, even for one with lower magga phala. So, there is no point in trying to make sense of that statement. One just need to go step-by-step, to the next step where ONE CAN see the relief from suffering.
The first step to experience the relief of getting rid of excess greed, excess hate, AND cultivate metta, karuna, etc AND to learn Dhamma. This process is discussed step-by-step in the “Living Dhamma” section.

[Lal]

C.Saket said: “wonder why beings in the realms 28-31 are called “arupavacara” brahma ? and why these realms are called “arupa” loka ? (since arupavacara brahmas have hadaya vatthu which is technically a rupa)”.

Arupavacara was a word introduced by ancient yogis and had been in usage when the Buddha was born. Rupa above the suddhshtaka stage start at bhuta stage, where it is just a suddhashtaka. The next more condensed state is “maha bhuta” with large aggregates of suddhashtaka, and then even more condensed statges of “dhathu”. See:
The Origin of Matter – Suddhāshtaka

Higher the one’s realm is finer rupas one can see. We can see only highly condensed “dhatu”. Devas have much finer bodies and can see finer “dhatu”. Rupavacara brahmas can see “maha bhuta”. A given being can see one’s own level and lower levels.

However, arupavacra brahmas cannot see rupa above the suddhashtaka stage because they do not have cakkhu (or sota) pasada rupa. They have only a hadaya vatthu and thus can only access “dhamma below the suddhashtaka stage” via “mananca paticca dhammeca uppadati mano vinnanam”.
Therefore, there are no rupa above the suddhashtaka stage in arupavacara realms, AND the only rupa at the suddhashtaka stage are only the hadaya vatthus of those brahmas. Thus, when ancient yogis attained arupavacara jhanas, they did not see any rupa there, So, those yogis gave the name “arupavacara” to those realms.
Therefore, any rupa above the suddhashtaka cannot be seen by an arupavacara brahma, because they don’t have cakkhu indriya. A suddhashtaka cannot be seen by rupavacara brahmas, because they can see only “maha buta” or large aggregates of suddhashtaka. Only a Buddha can see a suddhashtaka.

Sybe07 said: “Lal, when the mind becomes free of asava’s does it become free of seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting etc? Would that really be the case then an arahant, who’s asava’s have ended, cannot live this life anymore. Attaining Nibbana would make live impossible if this would mean that mind would end too….”

When a living being is in a given bhava in the kama loka (human, animal, deva, peta, etc), its sense faculties experience likes/dislikes based on that bhava, and these are called “kama guna”. Some kama guna can be matching, but others are different from bhava to bhava. Humans and dogs enjoy some similar foods, but dogs also eat feces. A human (with some exceptions based on kamma vipaka), taste saltiness of salt and sweetness of sugar. That holds for even an Arahant until the Arahant attains Parinibbana, i.e., passes away, see:
Kāma Guna, Kāma, Kāma Rāga, Kāmaccanda

There are two types of Nibbana: saupadisesa Nibbana and anupadisesa Nibbana:
See “Nirödha and Vaya – Two Different Concepts”.

All sense faculties keep functioning after one attains the Arahant stage; kama guna do not change since an Arahant is still in human bhava. An Arahant only loses any craving for them. Any thought generation stops at anupadisesa Nibbana.

We can look at this from another angle to make this clear.
A living being moves to higher realms by seeing the adinava (unfruitfulness/dangers) in sense pleasures at lower realms.

In the realms of kama loka, beings enjoy sense pleasures through all five physical senses.

In the rupavacara brahma loka, smell, taste, and touch are not there. One gets born in such realms when one develops rupavacara jhana and regularly cultivates them in the human realm; one has lost craving for sense pleasures through the tongue, nose, and the body (but anusaya remains, so those cravings can come back in future lives). In rupavacara brahma realms one enjoys only seeing and hearing.

Even those sense pleasures experienced with seeing and hearing are of not value to those who have cultivated arupavacara jhana; But they have not given up the desire to live (bhava raga). That cannot be removed without comprehending the real nature of all 31 realms: anicca, dukkha, anatta.

Only a Buddha can figure out how to remove Bhava raga. So, a Buddha finds the way to be free from all 31 realms.

[Lal]

Johnny Lim said, “Which implies that on the attainment of 2nd jhana, 4th jhana, and Nirodha Samāpatti, vaci sankhara, kaya sankhara, and citta (mano) sankhara stops, respectively. Emergence from Nirodha Samāpatti is just the reverse order..”

That statement should read, “Which implies that on the attainment of 2nd jhana samapatti, 4th jhana samapatti, and Nirodha Samāpatti, vaci sankhara, kaya sankhara, and citta (mano) sankhara stops, respectively. Emergence from Nirodha Samāpatti is just the reverse order.

It is important to understand the difference between jhana and samapatti. Vaci sankhara are not stopped in the second jhana, but is stopped in the second jhana samapatti. Similarly, kaya sankhara are stopped only in the fourth jhana samapatti; that also means breathing is also stopped in the fourth jhana samapatti.
All thoughts cease to exist in nirodha samapatti, i.e., no mano sankhara. The only difference between one in nirodha samapatti and a dead body is that dead body is decaying and body temperature drops. When one is in nirodha samapatti, body temperature drops some but remains at that level; life is maintained by kammic energy.

When in a jhana, jhana citta vithi do not run continuously; there are citta vithi corresponding to pancadvara running in between jhana citta vithi. That is why one in a jhana can hear, see, etc.So, one does generate all three types of sankhara when one is in a jhana.

But when one is in a jhana samapatti, monodvara jhana javana citta run continuously. Therefore, one does not hear, see, etc while in any jhana samapatti, as well as in nirodha samapatti.

The basic ideas and a bit about jhana samapatti are discussed in the post: “Citta Vithi – Processing of Sense Inputs“.

In addition, only vaci sankhara are stopped in the second jhana samapatti. Only vaci and kaya sankhara are stopped in the fourth jhana samapatti. All three are stopped in the nirodha samapatti.

[Author]

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